Wright writes.....

[john new]

Thanks for the comments re timber. I did some basic reading and video watching yesterday. Observations, not meant to be definitive just my notes.

 

1) Before the 1920s imported timber came in as trunks, was kept in water (timber ponds) at the docks and tended to be sawn there. Source: https://youtu.be/FTP3V9txa98   A short documentary on Hull Timber Dock’s history. The trade then moved to imported plank timber.

 

2) Shipped as single timbers in the ship’s hold, stacked on the dockside  in both odd ways and organised lengths, and trains left with very random length loads. Sources: primarily the excellent 29 mins BFI collection film on Hull Docks released in 1963 https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-port-of-hull-1963-online?play-film - and a Google Images search.

 

3) At least one regular consignment coming into Goole in more recent times was 20ft lengths from Sweden. Other timber from Russia also via Goole but Malcolm’s company didn’t handle that. Source: S-I-L’s father,

 

I am awaiting a further response from an SLS colleague regarding Hull, which should be definitive as Mike has written a book on the Railways and Docks of Hull.

 

[Geordiesteam]

Good Morning Tony

 

    Great to see you and Mo again at Doncaster and good to know you are both keeping well.  These have been a long time coming due to one thing and another.  The hard drive I had these saved to was corrupt so I ran the risk of losing everything on there including the pictures I took when I payed you a visit.  Anyhow, a good friend of mine finally manage to retrieve everything (Don't ask me how he did it but that's what he does for a living so I didn't ask)  The layout has probably progressed somewhat since these were took but hopefully you enjoy.

[john new]

One of the things very noticeable in photos of LB like those above is that even the little things like the highway edges are so well done. Why do I comment on that today? Yesterday I watched some videos taken at the Doncaster Show. I commented to my wife that it is a great shame that some of the obviously excellent craftsmanship the builder/build team has displayed on their layouts hasn’t been matched to observation of the real world.
 

Well done to the LB team (including all the posters into this thread) for the regular inspirational posts to look and learn.
 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by john new

[jollysmart]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Many years ago - in 1979, to be exact - I went along to my then local timber yard with a cutting list for timber & chipboard to build some baseboards. I said that I wanted some 2 x 1 planed timber and... I was stopped at this point by the assistant. who told my, very seriously, that timber was now metric, and so I would get 50 x 25...

 

OK, I said, no problem. I'll need some 50 x 25... I was stopped again, in mid flow, as it were. The next line, I will never forget - OK, how many feet length?

 

I didn't know whether to laugh, cry, or look for a suitably solid object to beat my head against...

 

Still goes on, when I was on site the discussion with the contractors about an excavation would often be about the ability to obtain a sufficient excavation for a piece of plant so would be we need a clear 1200mm by 600mm, how deep? 18 inches should be OK would be the reply.

[john new]

12 minutes ago, jollysmart said:

 

Still goes on, when I was on site the discussion with the contractors about an excavation would often be about the ability to obtain a sufficient excavation for a piece of plant so would be we need a clear 1200mm by 600mm, how deep? 18 inches should be OK would be the reply.

Problem with us oldies, is we can work in metric and do, but were hard wired in childhood to think in imperial. I will look at something and know instinctively it is, for example about 5ft, but would have to put the tape on it to get the metre.mm split. I don’t instantly think metre and a third or metre and a half.  Not helped by industry working without mentioning cms but other places quoting cm sizes.

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by john new

[Bucoops]

I'm just going to put this here -

 

OO/EM/P4 - the scale is known as 4mm/ft

O - 7mm/ft

etc.

 

We're just as guilty as Travis Perkins

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

26 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I'm just going to put this here -

 

OO/EM/P4 - the scale is known as 4mm/ft

O - 7mm/ft

etc.

 

We're just as guilty as Travis Perkins

so whats that in imperial.................

[Bucoops]

1 minute ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

so whats that in imperial.................

 

3 spearmints to the gob.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

 The too good to hurry mints then,or a cool polar bear.Hopefully now we are out of Europe we can go back to the good old days,made the kids better at maths,even the dunce could count his money.

[Dave 46]

1 hour ago, john new said:

Problem with us oldies, is we can work in metric and do, but were hard wired in childhood to think in imperial. I will look at something and know instinctively it is, for example about 5ft, but would have to put the tape on it to get the metre.mm split. I don’t instantly think metre and a third or metre and a half.  Not helped by industry working without mentioning cms but other places quoting cm sizes.

 

I'm an oldie too (1946) but I tend to work in metric dimensions, only using imperial when it is obviously (to me) easier.

Centimeters are the spawn of the devil though.

 

Dave

 

[john new]

1 hour ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

so whats that in imperial.................

1:76 & 1:43 or is it 1:48?

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by john new
or to & for better sense

[MJI]

I have recently moved more to kg than the alternatives as I can see the scales better.

 

My car is 22??kg so roughly 2.25 toone or ton, luckily the UK ton is very near a tonne.

 

What thing do may of us use have measurements in, usually in one place

 

mm

inch

aspect ratio

number of bits

a code number

a code letter

 

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, john new said:

Thanks for the comments re timber. I did some basic reading and video watching yesterday. Observations, not meant to be definitive just my notes.

 

1) Before the 1920s imported timber came in as trunks, was kept in water (timber ponds) at the docks and tended to be sawn there. Source: https://youtu.be/FTP3V9txa98   A short documentary on Hull Timber Dock’s history. The trade then moved to imported plank timber.

 

2) Shipped as single timbers in the ship’s hold, stacked on the dockside  in both odd ways and organised lengths, and trains left with very random length loads. Sources: primarily the excellent 29 mins BFI collection film on Hull Docks released in 1963 https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-port-of-hull-1963-online?play-film - and a Google Images search.

 

3) At least one regular consignment coming into Goole in more recent times was 20ft lengths from Sweden. Other timber from Russia also via Goole but Malcolm’s company didn’t handle that. Source: S-I-L’s father,

 

I am awaiting a further response from an SLS colleague regarding Hull, which should be definitive as Mike has written a book on the Railways and Docks of Hull.

 

 

Judging by the amount of overhang visible in pictures of timber loaded in typical 5-plank merchandise wagons of 17' 6" body length, 20' sounds like a reasonable average.  

 

John

Edited February 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[HEATH STATION]

2 hours ago, Dave 46 said:

 

' the spawn of the devil though'.

Must disagree -that can only describe silicone sealant

2 hours ago, Dave 46 said:

 

 

 

[john new]

 

On 15/02/2022 at 10:38, john new said:

Thanks for the comments re timber. I did some basic reading and video watching yesterday. Observations, not meant to be definitive just my notes.

 

1) Before the 1920s imported timber came in as trunks, was kept in water (timber ponds) at the docks and tended to be sawn there. Source: https://youtu.be/FTP3V9txa98   A short documentary on Hull Timber Dock’s history. The trade then moved to imported plank timber.

 

2) Shipped as single timbers in the ship’s hold, stacked on the dockside  in both odd ways and organised lengths, and trains left with very random length loads. Sources: primarily the excellent 29 mins BFI collection film on Hull Docks released in 1963 https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-port-of-hull-1963-online?play-film - and a Google Images search.

 

3) At least one regular consignment coming into Goole in more recent times was 20ft lengths from Sweden. Other timber from Russia also via Goole but Malcolm’s company didn’t handle that. Source: S-I-L’s father,

 

I am awaiting a further response from an SLS colleague regarding Hull, which should be definitive as Mike has written a book on the Railways and Docks of Hull.

 

Further follow up reply, which I hope is helpful:-

 

Extract from an email to me from Mike G Fell OBE.

 

In the days of loose timber cargos, the dockers discharged random lengths which were sorted to size in nearby stacking yards or under ‘Dutch Barn’ open sided sheds. By the time I came on the scene in the 1970s loose timber cargos had been replaced by pre-packed pre-slung timber cut to standard lengths. However, in all my experience I never saw the pre-packed material loaded on to a train. Road transport had become king!

 

In trying to encourage rail traffic at King’s Lynn I managed to get BR to offer free transport for trial timber cargos but none of the importers took up the offer. No private sidings at the other end of the journey.

Mike also forwarded me some images (not posted for copyright considerations).

 

It can clearly be seen from these and the publicly available BFI video, that loads used to be of mixed lengths on the ship confirming the above comment. Comparing the known track gauge against the timber lengths using Photoshop the lengths coming off the ship in just one 10 plank high slung load vary (Approx obviously):-

 

1)    Bottom one – 375in / 31.2’ (then rising up the stack).

2)    368in – 30.6’

3)    323in – 27.2’

4)    375in - 31.2’

5)    364in – 30.3’ (Unclear as to r/hand end)

6)    375in -31.2’(Unclear as to r/hand end)

7)    367in – 30.6’

😎 346in – 28.9’  

9)    338in – 28.1’

10) 338in – 28.1’

 

What is also apparent is that this bundle appears to be made of very dissimilar lengths and with a range from 27.2’ to 31.2’ (4ft variation within the bundle).

 

 

Both image sections cut from the original shot of the vessel Hesnes unloading at Victoria Dock, Hull in 1950. Source: collection of Mike G Fell OBE.

Edited April 19, 2022 by john new
Photos reloaded post the site crash

[Northmoor]

8 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

 The too good to hurry mints then,or a cool polar bear.Hopefully now we are out of Europe we can go back to the good old days,made the kids better at maths,even the dunce could count his money.

I strongly disagree, but I will accept your proposal if the following are also accepted as standard units of measurement (because they already are in the broadcasting industry):

• Weight = Family car
• Power = (Multiples of) family cars
• Area = Wales or Football pitch
• Height = Nelson's Column
• Length = London Bus
• Very small dimensions = Human Hair
• Volume (of fluid) = Olympic Swimming Pool or Wembley Stadium
• Volume (sound) = Jet Airliner

Edited February 15, 2022 by Northmoor

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, HEATH STATION said:

Must disagree -that can only describe silicone sealant

 

Touch screens.

[St Enodoc]

37 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Area = Wales

Football fields?

[FarrMan]

22 hours ago, john new said:

Problem with us oldies, is we can work in metric and do, but were hard wired in childhood to think in imperial. I will look at something and know instinctively it is, for example about 5ft, but would have to put the tape on it to get the metre.mm split. I don’t instantly think metre and a third or metre and a half.  Not helped by industry working without mentioning cms but other places quoting cm sizes.

 

Cms are used by scientists, mms by engineers. As an engineer, I detest cms. Architects can't tell the difference!

 

Lloyd

[Northmoor]

25 minutes ago, FarrMan said:

Cms are used by scientists, mms by engineers. As an engineer, I detest cms. Architects can't tell the difference!

 

Lloyd

I've never heard of scientists using Centimetres (in fact I've never seen them used since my GCSE Maths textbooks over 30 years ago), but training as an Engineer it was made clear that the only important units are every three orders of magnitude: Micron, Millimetre, Metre, Kilometre.

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, FarrMan said:

Cms are used by scientists, mms by engineers. As an engineer, I detest cms. Architects can't tell the difference!

 

Lloyd

 

We used metres most of the time but even sticking within the metric system could produce major cock-ups. We were doing some high-precision timing on optical pulses arriving from the Crab pulsar. To make sense of the observations, you have to allow for the Earth's motion (its rotation and revolution around the Sun) and the location of the observatory relative to the centre of the Earth. We were up a mountain in the Canary Islands. The software appeared to want the elevation of the mountain in metres, which was duly entered, but when processed the timing results were completely screwed up. It turned out that, in the guts of the software, the parameter it expected to be entered was the height of the mountain in kilometres. Instead of 2.4 km, then, we were placing our observatory 2400 km above sea level, way above low Earth orbit.

 

I must admit that although I was educated in metric, and used metric and SI units through my career, I quite happily think in inches and feet as well.  Imperial volumes and weights don't mean anything to me at all, though.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Barry Ten

[chrisf]

3 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

Imperial volumes and weights don't mean anything to me at all, though.

You don't drink pints, then ...

 

Chris

[Barry Ten]

Just now, chrisf said:

You don't drink pints, then ...

 

Chris

 

I can drink a pint, but you wouldn't want me to pour you one.

[drmditch]

Re: Units of Measure

When I last checked, cm were not SI units.

The combination of metric sections and imperial lengths seemed to be normal in the timber industry for a long time.

I think it has changed now, and they talk about 'metric equivalent' lengths.

I was brought up with imperial units, but learned when a student that for buoyancy and other calculations involving the weight and volume of fluids the metric system is much easier. ( I was reading history, but working on other practical projects.) 

 

Re: Timber

I have just consulted my copy of 'Modern Railway Administration' (published 1925). This always takes time because of the distractions.

I wasn't able to find a standard charging rate for timber. (It must be there somewhere.) There is however a difference of classification between 'pitwood' and 'timber for construction'.

I will look further.

I do have some loads made up of buddleia representing pitprops. (I don't know where they are at the moment!) 

 

In the LNER Society Journal No.78, a copy of which I purchased at Doncaster on Saturday, there is an article first published in May 1947, concerning timber loading at Arlesey in Bedfordshire.

(Much felling of of broad-leaf hardwood.)

Interesting aspects are:-

  Loading of whole trunks on Sundays using the Grantham (and other) steam cranes.

  An average of approximately 100 tons of timber in a train, using double bolster wagons and bogie bolster wagons.

  Loads of special elm timber for HM Dockyards (including Sydney, Australia)

  Cutting of some trunks into 7ft lengths.

 

This is timber 'in the round'.

 

Photographic evidence (certainly from most of the NE ports) shows some planks overhanging the ends of wagons. Surely there must have been regulations for this?

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by drmditch

[john new]

 

22 hours ago, drmditch said:

... cut ...

 

Photographic evidence (certainly from most of the NE ports) shows some planks overhanging the ends of wagons. Surely there must have been regulations for this?

 

 

See p26 of the loading guide at http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20426_Issue.pdf , the barrowmoremrg website is a mine of extremely useful information.

Edited February 17, 2022 by john new
Hadn't noticed I'd forgotten the URL link