Wright writes.....

[robertcwp]

In view of the correspondence about the Banks/Carter book ‘LNER Passenger Trains and Formations 1923-67 – The Principal Services’  I thought it might be useful to set out the text of the review I submitted to the LNER Society in full. I think it was published pretty much as I submitted it:

 

"The authors describe this book as being their attempt to “portray how the LNER and the Eastern Region of British Railways went about the business of carrying its passengers while steam was king.” The introduction provides an overview of carriage types and codes and seven chapters cover the expresses, through coaches and portions, cross-country expresses, secondary expresses, sleeping car trains, Pullman car trains and final developments. The book is illustrated copiously with black and white photos, some of which will be familiar but many others not so. The text is largely a description of train formations and how and why those formations changed over time.

 

Whilst many books and articles have been written about engines, carriages and train services, little attention has been given to train formations. This book begins to fill that void. A further volume, on secondary services, is in preparation. A comment on page 103 “…first chapter of four about cross-country expresses using the GC London Extension” suggests that some of the text belongs to a much larger project.

 

The authors go into great detail on some notable trains, including almost 11 pages devoted to the ‘Flying Scotsman’. Pullman Car trains, few in number but high in prestige, are also afforded extensive coverage. By contrast, other principal services such as the ‘Hook Continental’ and Harwich-Liverpool are mentioned only briefly, with post-war developments omitted. Coverage of the Great Eastern in general is minimal compared to other areas including the East Coast Main Line, Great Northern and Great Central. Services during World War Two were a significant part of the LNER’s history but are mentioned only briefly. The authors acknowledge difficulties in sourcing detailed information, which probably goes some way to explaining this imbalance. However, this means that, arguably, the book does not portray how the LNER as a whole went about the business of carrying its passengers on its principal services during its 25-year existence.

 

The photos are reproduced generally to a high standard and illustrate the wide variety of coaching stock and formations employed. Some unfortunate cropping has occurred, which has clipped off the edges of several photos, in one case partially removing a feature (a British Standard gangway) to which the caption refers. Several captions misidentify carriage types in the formations depicted, an aspect central to the subject matter of the book. To err is human and identifying the exact type of carriage is often difficult, but such errors are surprising given the authors’ assertion that “Analysis of photographs was key”. One caption refers to a non-existent type, a “Tourist Twin on the rear (BTO TO)”. ‘Tourist’ stock twins were third opens and the brake thirds were individual carriages. The carriages referred to are two ‘Tourist’ brake thirds.

 

This book addresses a significant gap in the market and will be a welcome and interesting addition to the library of many LNER enthusiasts, although it leaves some room for improvement."

[robertcwp]

Hi Robert,

 

I never did read your finished article, when and where may I find it?

It was in October's BRM, which is no longer in the shops. It was meant to be in September's (50th anniversary of closure of the London Extension as a through route, which you will know but others may not).

 

I haven't read it either. I dare not as I shall find errors.

[Tony Wright]

Didn't you mean to say, 'what a fantastic picture, no less than five carriages in a row providing first class accommodation, and not obscured by the right-hand drive A3 thingy'.

Andrew,

 

Of course. 

 

Why not pop over to the Caistor Show this weekend where I'll be helping to operate (and probably completely mess-up) Graham Moorfoot's Boston Sleeper Works? We can discuss carriages vs locos then.

 

By the way, does anyone know where the venue is in Caistor for the show?

 

I've also been asked to provide a loco and a train or two. Will they be wrong, I wonder?

 

Best,

 

Tony.  

[Clive Mortimore]

Willie,

 

You're quite right, it is all too easy to be critical of published works,even though the critic might never have written anything him/herself. One also sees this sort of things at exhibitions, where (often loud-voiced) critics pontificate on why this or that cannot possibly be right. I've mentioned before about my secret weapon of being a photographer and requesting that I take pictures of their layout (implying that is must be wonderful), only to find those Stentorian opinioners (I've just invented a word!) disappearing at great speed. That said, though I'd never have been able to play cricket for England (because of lack of skill), I still I can retain the right to be highly critical of an individual's performance - bowling pies or making a rash stroke. Just in the same way that we can all be critical of the England football team's miserable performance in Europe last summer. 

 

I've had some critics which have been quite strident, vowing NEVER to buy a magazine with my work in it ever again. One fellow Cestrian, on reading my urchin tales in BRILL, considered my parents to be highly irresponsible in letting their young charge out in the dead of night to watch The Irish Mail. When I pointed out to him that the train of that name ran during the day, he rather shut up. He'd got muddled up with the overnight mail trains for Ireland. One Scotsman, bless him, thought his idea of infernal damnation was to spend eternity talking to me in a non-corridor carriage! Another Scot opined that I wrote the most useless drivel and he'd never look at any (really boring) layout I'd been involved with. I sent him him a complimentary ticket for the Glasgow Show where Stoke was being exhibited. He didn't show up, or, if he did, he was a wimp!  One guy sent one of my books back, demanding a refund. 

 

Though I think you're right that the book in question is by far the best on the subject, at £45.00 one might have expected better? Anyway, one of the authors has been known in the past to be highly critical of others' published work, so he can't expect to be always bullet-proof. 

 

Me? I'm just completing the manuscript for my Crowood book - pages and pages of it. Believe me, unless one writes a best-seller, one'll never get well-off writing railway books. 

Hi Tony

 

Now a bit of advice please, I have a book on East Coast Mainline Diesels, and on the cover is a lovely photo of the Hitchin bay platform at Bedford Midland Road station. Having been brought up in Bedford I never realised it was on the ECML. Now should I send this back to the author and demand my money back?         

 

Ducks for cover before Mr Wright throws something at me.

[robertcwp]

Willie,

 

You're quite right, it is all too easy to be critical of published works,even though the critic might never have written anything him/herself. One also sees this sort of things at exhibitions, where (often loud-voiced) critics pontificate on why this or that cannot possibly be right. I've mentioned before about my secret weapon of being a photographer and requesting that I take pictures of their layout (implying that is must be wonderful), only to find those Stentorian opinioners (I've just invented a word!) disappearing at great speed. That said, though I'd never have been able to play cricket for England (because of lack of skill), I still I can retain the right to be highly critical of an individual's performance - bowling pies or making a rash stroke. Just in the same way that we can all be critical of the England football team's miserable performance in Europe last summer. 

 

I've had some critics which have been quite strident, vowing NEVER to buy a magazine with my work in it ever again. One fellow Cestrian, on reading my urchin tales in BRILL, considered my parents to be highly irresponsible in letting their young charge out in the dead of night to watch The Irish Mail. When I pointed out to him that the train of that name ran during the day, he rather shut up. He'd got muddled up with the overnight mail trains for Ireland. One Scotsman, bless him, thought his idea of infernal damnation was to spend eternity talking to me in a non-corridor carriage! Another Scot opined that I wrote the most useless drivel and he'd never look at any (really boring) layout I'd been involved with. I sent him him a complimentary ticket for the Glasgow Show where Stoke was being exhibited. He didn't show up, or, if he did, he was a wimp!  One guy sent one of my books back, demanding a refund. 

 

Though I think you're right that the book in question is by far the best on the subject, at £45.00 one might have expected better? Anyway, one of the authors has been known in the past to be highly critical of others' published work, so he can't expect to be always bullet-proof. 

 

Me? I'm just completing the manuscript for my Crowood book - pages and pages of it. Believe me, unless one writes a best-seller, one'll never get well-off writing railway books. 

See my previous post regarding the Banks/Carter book. 

 

My view is simple: If you don't want to be criticised, don't publish anything.

 

I'm sure people can find plenty of faults with my various articles. Some were screwed up by others (notably the one on East Coast Pullmans) and other errors were mine for various reasons. I've co-written a few books over the years, but they were on accounting things not trains.

 

For clarity, the following comment is in no way directed at Tony or anyone else who posts regularly on this thread. Rather it is aimed at the holier than thou minority who believe themselves to be beyond reproach: The more critical and disparaging you are of the work of others, the more likely you are to be repaid in kind.

[robertcwp]

The Master Cutler, about 8 or 9 months earlier than the photo above. The question is, is it the up or down train?

 

 

Down, or at least that is how the 1950 working time table would have it. I believe Up was towards Manchester in GCR days but at some stage the designation for the London Extension appears to have been swapped as the BR WTTs I have all have Up being towards Marylebone.

[it's-er]

Thank you, Tony, for responding so fully at post 12,257 above to my query about your reroofing of the Prototype Models Little Bytham goods shed (on your Little Bytham recreation in miniature).

 

I made this goods shed 35 or 40 years ago (oh dear!), and felt the roof was indeed a bit flat or bland .... but I've never got round to cutting up long strips of thin card, nicking them and gluing them on, row by row. All a bit laborious! Wills sheets aren't big enough, so would have joins difficult to disguise. Your photos show these Barleycorn embossed texture sheets look like a wonderful solution. My thanks!

 

John Storey

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony

 

Now a bit of advice please, I have a book on East Coast Mainline Diesels, and on the cover is a lovely photo of the Hitchin bay platform at Bedford Midland Road station. Having been brought up in Bedford I never realised it was on the ECML. Now should I send this back to the author and demand my money back?       

 

Ducks for cover before Mr Wright throws something at me.

Clive,

 

Please do, I've run out of copies - it's sold really well. 

 

Though it looks like I'm passing the buck (or should that be passing the book?) I had no idea where that picture came from. It certainly wasn't in the selection of pictures I was given to caption, so I'm rather stumped. It was a pretty picture, though. 

 

Here's an idea. Why don't you approach a publisher with a proposal about writing something about how you build your models? I'll certainly buy a copy, then, perhaps, demand my money back. 

 

Posted with just a touch of irony. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Thank you, Tony, for responding so fully at post 12,257 above to my query about your reroofing of the Prototype Models Little Bytham goods shed (on your Little Bytham recreation in miniature).

 

I made this goods shed 35 or 40 years ago (oh dear!), and felt the roof was indeed a bit flat or bland .... but I've never got round to cutting up long strips of thin card, nicking them and gluing them on, row by row. All a bit laborious! Wills sheets aren't big enough, so would have joins difficult to disguise. Your photos show these Barleycorn embossed texture sheets look like a wonderful solution. My thanks!

 

John Storey

My pleasure John,

 

The Barleycorn roof sections are only just big enough and leave alternate slates at the edges just white. Why, I don't know. I just mixed up some enamels (don't use acrylics or other water-based paints because they'll spoil the ridge tiles) to the same colour (near enough) as the Barleycorn roof and painted each white one. 

[robertcwp]

Some months ago I was given to understand that 'Volume 2' was still hoped to be published but had been 'delayed by illness', but since then it has all gone completely quiet, and though his website still suggests it will be issued "in about a year or so", that wording itself is at least a year old.  There was even for a time a picture of the proposed cover on Amazon (featuring an A5 tank) as a forthcoming item, but again that disappeared from view some months ago.

 

I asked a representative from Ian Allan about Volume 2 at the 2014 Warley show and was informed that it was on the way. I was subsequently informed late last year that IA had dropped it due to the authors being unable to complete it due to illness but were hoping to reinstate it.

 

Volume 2 is not in the Autumn 2016 Ian Allan catalogue. I hope it hasn't been dropped completely as the secondary services are in need of some coverage. They far outnumbered the principal services and little has been written about them.

[Tony Wright]

 

Away from the discussion of what might be the right carriage, in the right place, in the right train on the ECML, occasionally I leave the hustle and bustle of running long rakes at high speed and turn my attention to my little trainset, the MR/M&GNR. 

 

I don't know whether this Nottingham-Kings Lynn three-set is dead right as it ambles over Station Road hauled by a modified Bachmann 4F. The stock is comprised of a modified Hornby RTR carriage and two BSL Staniers, acquired from Barry Oliver for which I had to make bogies. This picture will be going in the Crowood book because it illustrates a fair bit about what we set out to achieve, A simple, yet accurate overbridge (built by Ian Wilson) and some kit/modified RTR items running over it. There's also the most simple of scenery but (I hope) it's effective. 

 

Edited because something seems to have gone wrong with the picture.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Headstock]

Andrew,

 

Of course. 

 

Why not pop over to the Caistor Show this weekend where I'll be helping to operate (and probably completely mess-up) Graham Moorfoot's Boston Sleeper Works? We can discuss carriages vs locos then.

 

By the way, does anyone know where the venue is in Caistor for the show?

 

I've also been asked to provide a loco and a train or two. Will they be wrong, I wonder?

 

Best,

 

Tony.  

 

A most intriguing invite, unfortunately, I find myself on wheel cleaning duty for the duration. On the locomotive vs carriages front, I make a call for equal billing for a minority sport. Admittedly, locomotives grab all the attention, and it could be claimed with some justification, a V2 on a rake of Great Western carriages made the products of the Swindon just that little bit more swanky. No doubt we will catch up at some stage and discuss over a pint of milk.

 

Down, or at least that is how the 1950 working time table would have it. I believe Up was towards Manchester in GCR days but at some stage the designation for the London Extension appears to have been swapped as the BR WTTs I have all have Up being towards Marylebone.

 

A bit of a trick question as there was only one train that ran both up and down services. You are of course correct, in BR speak my model is the down formation and your photo is the up service or it could be the other way round in GC speak The Master Cutler was a late addition to the roster and is very much formatted as an east coast express with the first class and catering at the London or up direction. In contrast, the Manchester expresses retained their first class and catering at the northern or GC up end, I think as late as 1952 . The WTT may have said London was up but the GC men were having none of it.

 

P.S. I have now acquired a digital copy of Octobers BRM, thanks for the info.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Headstock

[Tony Wright]

 

That's better.........

[gr.king]

By the way, does anyone know where the venue is in Caistor for the show?

Town Hall.

 

 

Suggested directions just e-mailed.....

[Barry Ten]

Running trials for the Schools...

 

 

I was a bit concerned about getting enough weight into the model, but here she's pulling a 7 coach train with power to spare, and that's as much as will ever be required of her (edit: I've put nine on, including a stiff Lima siphon, and there's just a trace of wheelslip when moving off). That said, I've crammed lead into the chassis and every available nook and cranny in the body, until she was just on the point of being nose-heavy. For the purposes of running trials, I've rigged up a temporary drawbar so she can haul the Urie tender from my S15. The coupling rods are only fixed to the rear wheels at the moment.

 

As is probably clear, I've decided to build the body first, and then worry about replacing any of the fittings with better castings. If anyone is interested, by the way, here is an older thread by Ray Norwood which shows how good the Airfix model can be made to look:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99383-an-old-airfix-schools-kit-with-a-craftsman-models-chassis/

 

If mine ends up half as good as Ray's, I'll be well satisfied - definitely a standard to aim for.

 

Alastair (Barry Ten)

Edited October 28, 2016 by Barry Ten

[robertcwp]

A bit of a trick question as there was only one train that ran both up and down services. You are of course correct, in BR speak my model is the down formation and your photo is the up service or it could be the other way round in GC speak The Master Cutler was a late addition to the roster and is very much formatted as an east coast express with the first class and catering at the London or up direction. In contrast, the Manchester express's retained their first class and catering at the northern or GC up end, I think as late as 1952 . The WTT may have said London was up but the GC men were having none of it.

The Master Cutler's immediate predecessor (7.38 am from Sheffield Victoria and 6.15 pm from Marylebone) was listed in the Summer 1947 workings as being formed: BFK(4), FK(7), FO(38), RF, TO(48 - dining), TTO(64), TTO(64), BTK(5). The carriage workings are not totally clear but I think the first class was at the London end.  I think the FO(38) was one of the final series of Gresley pantry cars which ran as open firsts. BTK and CK attached to up service at Nottingham (SX) - these were off of the 1.45 am from Marylebone.

 

When the train was named, as you will know, it received end-door stock which quite possibly came from the East Coast, having been displaced by the post-war stock.

Edited October 27, 2016 by robertcwp

[Headstock]

The Master Cutler's immediate predecessor (7.38 am from Sheffield Victoria and 6.15 pm from Marylebone) was listed in the Summer 1947 workings as being formed: BFK(4), FK(7), FO(38), RF, TO(48 - dining), TTO(64), TTO(64), BTK(5). The carriage workings are not totally clear but I think the first class was at the London end.  I think the FO(38) was one of the final series of Gresley pantry cars which ran as open firsts. BTK and CK attached to up service at Nottingham (SX) - these were off of the 1.45 am from Marylebone.

 

When the train was named, as you will know, it received end-door stock which quite possibly came from the East Coast, having been displaced by the post-war stock.

Hi Robert,

 

Thanks for the information. I'm not totally convinced by the amount of TTO's running around on the GC in 47. The Manchester trains were also supposedly equipped, yet they don't turn up in photographs. Admittedly I haven't looked at it in two much detail being preoccupied with the 10.35am off Manchester. The 6.15 pm as the lines premier express was always treated as a special case. No doubt it differed from the other express trains operating out of Marylebone at the time. If the CWN's are correct then it still contains a substantial number of end door carriages even if they are open stock, and I would expect it to be formatted along East Coast lines. Do you have any photographs of TTO's operating in place of the TK's amongst the Marylebone express formations ? It could be that the Manchester trains used compartment door stock in 46, (a real mixed bag) open stock in 47 and then reverted to compartment door stock in 48, just in time for the interchange trials. A similar situation  was brought about with the Starlights in the 1954 season, so it's not impossible. A good photo would be worth a thousand CWN's on this one.

[Headstock]

Running trials for the Schools...

 

schools2.jpg

 

I was a bit concerned about getting enough weight into the model, but here she's pulling a 7 coach train with power to spare, and that's as much as will ever be required of her. That said, I've crammed lead into the chassis and every available nook and cranny in the body, until she was just on the point of being nose-heavy. For the purposes of running trials, I've rigged up a temporary drawbar so she can haul the Urie tender from my S15. The coupling rods are only fixed to the rear wheels at the moment.

 

As is probably clear, I've decided to build the body first, and then worry about replacing any of the fittings with better castings. If anyone is interested, by the way, here is an older thread by Ray Norwood which shows how good the Airfix model can be made to look:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99383-an-old-airfix-schools-kit-with-a-craftsman-models-chassis/

 

If mine ends up half as good as Ray's, I'll be well satisfied - definitely a standard to aim for.

 

Alastair (Barry Ten)

Hi Alistair,

 

Out of interest, what is the weight of the loco? Incidentally, your back scene looks fantastic.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Headstock

[Headstock]

The Master Cutler's immediate predecessor (7.38 am from Sheffield Victoria and 6.15 pm from Marylebone) was listed in the Summer 1947 workings as being formed: BFK(4), FK(7), FO(38), RF, TO(48 - dining), TTO(64), TTO(64), BTK(5). The carriage workings are not totally clear but I think the first class was at the London end.  I think the FO(38) was one of the final series of Gresley pantry cars which ran as open firsts. BTK and CK attached to up service at Nottingham (SX) - these were off of the 1.45 am from Marylebone.

 

When the train was named, as you will know, it received end-door stock which quite possibly came from the East Coast, having been displaced by the post-war stock

 

Good morning Robert,

 

I have read your article, it has some really great photographs. I'm quite taken with the shot of the standard class 5 on page 63. The train reminds me of one of the ex-ocean liner sets. The leading carriage is an ex-nondescript brake saloon, by this stage designated BSO. II can't quite make out the set number, it could be set 212, do you have a better view of it than I? Set 212 was notable for having at least one of Bulleids stunning Bournemouth  carriages in its formation. Do you have any more information?

[robertcwp]

Good morning Robert,

 

I have read your article, it has some really great photographs. I'm quite taken with the shot of the standard class 5 on page 63. The train reminds me of one of the ex-ocean liner sets. The leading carriage is an ex-nondescript brake saloon, by this stage designated BSO. II can't quite make out the set number, it could be set 212, do you have a better view of it than I? Set 212 was notable for having at least one of Bulleids stunning Bournemouth  carriages in its formation. Do you have any more information?

73158_Carrington_8-62_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

The Summer 1962 SR CWN Appendix lists Set 212 as:

 

BSO 4450

SO 1291

SO 1293

SO 1296

FO 3514 (an ex-Boat Second - Mark I)

SO 1301

SO 1311

SO 1415

SO 1416

BSO 4442

 

Seats: 48F/464S. Allocated to Eardley Special Traffic. Eardley being Eardley Carriage Sidings in Streatham, now a housing development after the site remained derelict for many years as it was a possible site for a motorway junction, but the motorways were never built.

Edited October 28, 2016 by robertcwp

[Headstock]

73158_Carrington_8-62_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

The Summer 1962 SR CWN Appendix lists Set 212 as:

 

BSO 4450

SO 1291

SO 1293

SO 1296

FO 3514 (an ex-Boat Second - Mark I)

SO 1301

SO 1311

SO 1415

SO 1416

BSO 4442

 

Seats: 48F/464S. Allocated to Eardley Special Traffic. Eardley being Eardley Carriage Sidings in Streatham, now a housing development after the site remained derelict for many years as it was a possible site for a motorway junction, but the motorways were never built.

 

Thank's Robert.

 

ex-Bournemouth set 295 open third no 1456 was a part of this set in 64/65. I believe this carriage is undergoing restoration, hopefully to its original condition. I wonder if the train was a special working similar to the type that would frequent the Nottingham goose fair or just another holiday express?

[Barry Ten]

Hi Alistair,

 

Out of interest, what is the weight of the loco? Incidentally, your back scene looks fantastic.

 

About 230-250 grams, which doesn't seem much although at least the weight is concentrated over the drivers.

[robertcwp]

Hi Robert,

 

Thanks for the information. I'm not totally convinced by the amount of TTO's running around on the GC in 47. The Manchester trains were also supposedly equipped, yet they don't turn up in photographs. Admittedly I haven't looked at it in two much detail being preoccupied with the 10.35am off Manchester. The 6.15 pm as the lines premier express was always treated as a special case. No doubt it differed from the other express trains operating out of Marylebone at the time. If the CWN's are correct then it still contains a substantial number of end door carriages even if they are open stock, and I would expect it to be formatted along East Coast lines. Do you have any photographs of TTO's operating in place of the TK's amongst the Marylebone express formations ? It could be that the Manchester trains used compartment door stock in 46, (a real mixed bag) open stock in 47 and then reverted to compartment door stock in 48, just in time for the interchange trials. A similar situation  was brought about with the Starlights in the 1954 season, so it's not impossible. A good photo would be worth a thousand CWN's on this one.

There might be a clue in the annotations in my Summer 1947 book regarding sets 37, 38 and 39A - the typed note about 37 was my replacing a pencil annotation with something legible:

 

LNER-1947-WS_022 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

LNER-1947-WS_023 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Seems they might well have been changed from TK(8) - side door ones - to TTO. At that time, the third class compartments had their armrests sewn up and were treated as having 4 per side seating, so the seating capacity would not have been affected.

Edited July 7, 2017 by robertcwp

[robertcwp]

Thank's Robert.

 

ex-Bournemouth set 295 open third no 1456 was a part of this set in 64/65. I believe this carriage is undergoing restoration, hopefully to its original condition. I wonder if the train was a special working similar to the type that would frequent the Nottingham goose fair or just another holiday express?

Hard to say what it might have been. I think the Eardley special sets could have been used on all manner of things.

[robertcwp]

Good morning Robert,

 

I have read your article, it has some really great photographs.

Thanks, I think all the images came from my collection. There are lots more GC ones besides - all in this album.