Wright writes.....

[chris p bacon]

As Membership Secretary for the GNRS I'll reply with a little more info.

I can recommend the GNRS publication dealing with every GNR tender-even the American ones.  Such a good publication, they should tackle the ubiquitous MR/LMS Deeley/Johnson/Fowler next, and sort out all the variations. 

 

Many thanks for the recommendation, much appreciated.

I presume that you are talking about the book written by the late and much missed Malcolm Crawley. It was the last thing he completed and the production was a bit rushed towards the end to get it done. He would have liked to have put photos of each type as illustrations but ran out of time to track them all down.

 

He put many, many hours of work into what is a relatively minority interest. It was a real labour of love after he struggled to get the details right on his own models and he realised that most people look for the tiniest detail differences on a loco and pay little attention to what goes behind it.

 

Much of the information for the GNR/LNER  was available but finding it, collating it and working out all the modifications and chronology was hard work.

 

I am not sure if such information is available for other companies but to expect the Great Northern Railway Society to produce a similar book on Midland Railway tenders is probably pushing your luck a bit, even if Malcolm had still been around to contemplate the idea! His interest in red engines was minimal (although he did build one or two).

 

Tony Gee

Tony -  It was Malcolms express wishes that the publication did not include photographs and the society respected that even though the book was published shortly after his death. There are drawings within by member Paul Craig for many of the tender types and it is planned to publish more information with photographs as it is assembled. Steve White our publications officer is working on this at present. The book itself has just been reprinted by the society with an updated forward as well as colour cover. It is offered in 2 forms, either a spiral binding (to be able to lay flat) or perfect bound.

 

A very good book indeed, but it raises many questions as well as answering some of the more routine ones.

 

Certainly does, but more information is coming to light, just takes time.

Malcolm knew that and it is why it took him 15 years to get that far. He was still trying to find answers and fill gaps. It was only when he found out how ill he was that he decided to publish what he had got so far.

 

He reckoned that having some information published with some gaps was better than all the research he had done so far going to waste.

There was also the thought that if there is some information published then more could be added and it might reveal further research by individuals.

 

If anyone is interested in the Great Northern Railway society or our publications, there is a link to the societies website in my signature (at the bottom) and after that unashamed plug for the GNRS courtesy of Tony's thread............it's back to modelling.

[t-b-g]

As Membership Secretary for the GNRS I'll reply with a little more info.

 

Many thanks for the recommendation, much appreciated.

Tony -  It was Malcolms express wishes that the publication did not include photographs and the society respected that even though the book was published shortly after his death. There are drawings within by member Paul Craig for many of the tender types and it is planned to publish more information with photographs as it is assembled. Steve White our publications officer is working on this at present. The book itself has just been reprinted by the society with an updated forward as well as colour cover. It is offered in 2 forms, either a spiral binding (to be able to lay flat) or perfect bound.

 

 

Certainly does, but more information is coming to light, just takes time.

There was also the thought that if there is some information published then more could be added and it might reveal further research by individuals.

 

If anyone is interested in the Great Northern Railway society or our publications, there is a link to the societies website in my signature (at the bottom) and after that unashamed plug for the GNRS courtesy of Tony's thread............it's back to modelling.

 

Malcolm did indeed express a wish that the publication went ahead without photos. The reason being that there were various tender types that he hadn't found photos of and there were also some photos where it was difficult to pin down exactly what the tender type was. As you say new information (and details of previously unknown variations) are still being found.

 

He realised that he didn't have time to do all the research he wanted to do and that he would rather have the publication issued without photos at all, rather than have an incomplete set of photos that hadn't been properly researched by him and may possibly have errors in the captions. He knew how long he had taken to get to where he had and also how much longer it would take to sort the photos out and he knew he didn't have that time left.  So he decided against including photos, although he did tell me that he hoped that somebody else may do a full photographic survey later.

 

I spent two evenings a week with him and saw the gradual progress he was making over the years, hunting down GA drawings and photos. He even spent time researching foundry techniques of the 1850s to see how the size of plate material changed over the years. It was great fun poring over old GA drawings, checking them against what Paul Craig had drawn and sometimes spotting the odd feature that was new to us both in a photo or a GA.

[ScRSG]

^{Going back to the Hornby chassis discussion, if we wanted to save a bit of cash, would it be possible to use the wheels and motion from the Hornby models in a Comet chassis. I believe the axle diameter is different but bushes can be obtained to solve that problem, but what about the axle mounted gear? Is there an easy solution to that problem?}

Edited October 22, 2016 by ScRSG

[CME and Bottlewasher]

For the 4F try Jim McGeown's site though I am not sure about which drawings may be there, his Jinty drawings were very useful. Download the PDFs.

 

The 4F is also figured in a ? Peco publication my copy of which about 1,000 kms from where I am this evening. It has a green cover and is in landscape format.

 

I am sure others can amplify.

Thanks, I had a quick look and as with any of Jim's kits the instructions etc are superb, but I couldnt find and drawings for a 4F, sadly. I hope to build one of JIm's 4Fs in due course too.

 

 

LMS Loco Profiles No.10 Standard Class 4 Goods 0-6-0s pub Wild Swan. Has a book full of genuine LMS 4F drawings all reduced to 12mm : 1foot.

Thanks Bill, I have just ordered one - that then just leaves drawings for the Hall.

 

Kindest to all,

 

M.

Edited October 22, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[jrg1]

I presume that you are talking about the book written by the late and much missed Malcolm Crawley. It was the last thing he completed and the production was a bit rushed towards the end to get it done. He would have liked to have put photos of each type as illustrations but ran out of time to track them all down.

 

He put many, many hours of work into what is a relatively minority interest. It was a real labour of love after he struggled to get the details right on his own models and he realised that most people look for the tiniest detail differences on a loco and pay little attention to what goes behind it.

 

Much of the information for the GNR/LNER  was available but finding it, collating it and working out all the modifications and chronology was hard work.

 

I am not sure if such information is available for other companies but to expect the Great Northern Railway Society to produce a similar book on Midland Railway tenders is probably pushing your luck a bit, even if Malcolm had still been around to contemplate the idea! His interest in red engines was minimal (although he did build one or two).

 

Tony Gee

Thanks Tony-suggesting the GNRS untangle the Midland/LMS tender saga was partly a joke-as if it would be an area of GNR interest-but also an acknowledgement to the extraordinary job done by Malcolm Crawley.  Anyone researching a railway subject is recommended to study the book-concise, excellent drawings, and a must have reference-just what is needed for the other companies' tenders.  .(How did the Midland convert eight wheel bogie tenders to short six wheelers?).  Apart from some drawings in the Midland Locomotives history, and a single drawing of the hybrid slab-sided Fowler/Stanier tender in an ancient MR article, the subject of MR/LMS tenders would be an ideal subject for a similar treatment.

I feel that the GNRS publication policy should be noted by other specialist societies-subjects such as GCR Barnums, GER Bogie stock, GWR grouping company rolling stock could all be suitable subjects.  Relatively cheap specialist publications could fill many gaps whilst ensuring information is not lost-another publication that comes to mind is the L&Y Society signalling book by Tom Wray.

[jamie92208]

How did the Midland convert eight wheel bogie tenders to short six wheelers?).

Can't answer that one but here's how two of the 'bogie water carts' ended up.

Converted into the Hellifield twin snow ploughs, and found to be too light.

Here running on Green Ayre. The pair were scratch built in plasticard with brass chassis' by Ray Clasper for me. The excuse to run them on Green Ayre is that they were on a summer test run from Hellifield to Morecambe after overhaul.

 

Jamie

[Clive Mortimore]

Jamie has just made me think about GNR tenders that ended up as show ploughs on the ER. Does the GNRS book on tenders include any information on what tenders became ploughs as each plough seems to have a variation of tender supporting it.

 

GNR tender with GCR design of large plough.

 

Same model in the center with some paint slapped on. With a LNER small plough and the Norwich plough. The plough on the LNER tender at Norwich was at one time was carried on the front of a J15.

 

3 small ploughs, LNER tender, GNR tender and GER tender (well LNER built GER tender from a B17).

[St Enodoc]

You're right, John.

 

My apologies, and fat fingers (not that I have them, honestly) might just stretch across between the 'C' and the 'F' on the keyboard. I just saw the Ist class on one door and assumed (never assume) that's what it was. 

 

Was it common among GWR carriages? 

Tony, I've had a quick glance through Jim Russell's GW Coaches Appendix 2. Without going into too much detail, the majority of GWR dining cars seem to have been composites.

[trw1089]

Can I just say thanks for all the kind words about my J6 build? As my first etched kit build I was a bit trepidatious about posting in here, but as they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

I wish I had have known about the GNRS tender book too, as the Yeadons on the J6 and others is good, but still didn't really say much on the tenders. It was also hard to figure out where the front coal plate should go and where the toolboxes ended up on the Ivatt tenders in later times as it seems the plate was moved further forward in later years to add more capacity and the tool box or boxes may have been omitted or just placed on top of the coal. I wasn't able to find a definitive picture of that part of the tender in the early BR period, so left it as it was intended in the original kit. The rear handrail on the back quarter of the tender seems also to be a hit and miss affair, with it appearing to be omitted on the loco I chose.

 

Still, that's what makes building locos fun, the research along with the construction is frustrating but most satisfying at the same time.

 

Cheers

Tony

[rodger5591]

Apart from some drawings in the Midland Locomotives history, and a single drawing of the hybrid slab-sided Fowler/Stanier tender in an ancient MR article, the subject of MR/LMS tenders would be an ideal subject for a similar treatment.

 

There is also the pretty extensive 2 part series on LMS tenders by John Jennison in the LMS Review issues 1 and 2 (http://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/books/ISBN/1908763094.php)

RD

[richard i]

Could I ask if anyone knows of a kit chassis or an rtr one that is a 4-4-0 with driving wheelbase of 8ft with 6' 3 wheels , or close enough? It could be any railway I am looking to see if I am going to have to bite the bullet and scratch build my first loco frames or whether I can continue to help myself get fair running by borrowing from another kit.

There was if I recall a company that did a wide range of loco frames, can I remember, or find their website now, can I heck.

It is for a GCR Sacre 4-4-0 and if I get it done Tony I will be brave enough to post a shot on here.

Richard

[chris p bacon]

There was if I recall a company that did a wide range of loco frames, can I remember, or find their website now, can I heck.

It is for a GCR Sacre 4-4-0 and if I get it done Tony I will be brave enough to post a shot on here.

Richard

Would that be Alan Gibson?

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/

 

The Milled mainframes are page 13 onwards in the catalogue

[Tony Wright]

Tony, I've had a quick glance through Jim Russell's GW Coaches Appendix 2. Without going into too much detail, the majority of GWR dining cars seem to have been composites.

Thanks John,

 

So, unlike the LNER catering cars? 

 

Never be too parochial in making models!

 

Just to report, the Replica/Comet B1 has been sold. Phil and I will be donating a percentage of the sale to Cancer Research. If the other one goes, we'll be chasing £100.00 donation with all that was made at Peterborough. And all we did was build them (Phil) and make them go really well (mainly Phil, with a bit of me) and line, letter, number and weather one (me). It just shows what can be done by chums modelling together - no 'dirty' money changed hands. 

 

I mention the above, not out of a sense of being altruistic at all. I heard yesterday that 50% of us will get cancer in our lives. One could be me!

 

Thanks, Phil. 

[westerner]

Tony, there were two versions of this particular Restaurant Composite. Dia. H25 which were flat ended and my version the H33 which were bow ended. There were 5 H25s and 4 H33s built. They were initially used on trains such as the 8.40 Paddington to Birmingham via Oxford and cross country trains such as the 12.30 Plymouth to Liverpool via Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe and inter regional trains such as the 9.10 Deal to Birkenhead via Reading, Oxford, Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Chester. On My Layout Kingsbridge it is used on the Kingsbridge Wolverhampton Train. they were built in 1924/25 and were rebuilt with the more modern windows and the last one was withdrawn in 1961.

Edited October 23, 2016 by westerner

[Michael Edge]

Mike,

 

I'll see what I can do.

 

How difficult might it be to convert a Golden Age A4 to EM Gauge? I have MERLIN itself, but I never use it. Its haulage capacity is quite prodigious, so it'll handle trains on Carlisle. 

 

My not using it is not down to dissatisfaction, not at all, it's just that all it really represents is purchasing-power (a lot!), and thus doesn't fit into my modelling philosophy at all. I bought it on a whim - an expensive one. What do they cost now? Well in excess of £1,000? Maybe nearer £1,500?

 

It is beautifully-finished, and just sits in its box. Like many models like this, most probably just end up in display cases. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Just to reassure you I have found the correct tender for Merlin now - simple body swap.

[gr.king]

Of course, if we're being awkward about LNER 8 wheeled tenders, the underframes are slightly different too, those for the corridor tenders including a rearward-facing portion to the rear step treads, whereas the steps only face outwards on the non-corridor type.

 

I won't mention it to anybody.

[Mallard60022]

Just to reassure you I have found the correct tender for Merlin now - simple body swap.

Some of us wish for that, but in a slightly different context. Please tell what body you used Mike. Just another Hornby or one from elsewhere? I believe PDK do a range. Thanks.

Phil

[2750Papyrus]

Valour on those Pullmans is, for me, what railway modelling is about.  Super - it's a loco I would love but, I fear, wishful thinking!

[richard i]

It seems from an article I have just read that we are all fighting the system. The article's argument was that it was in the interest of business to keep us for longer hours because that then meant we would buy convienience when we could as we have little free time. Thus we spend more and big business makes more profit. This inspire of the fact that they know from studies that people would be just as productive at work if they did a six hour day instead of an eight hour one. Might that explain so many responses for getting rtr rather than build. It might also explain why more seem to be coming over to building once they retire.

I personally like the idea we are all refusing to play the game by their rules and are enjoying doing it the other way. Over and above the fact I just enjoy building things.

Richard

[Tony Wright]

Some of us wish for that, but in a slightly different context. Please tell what body you used Mike. Just another Hornby or one from elsewhere? I believe PDK do a range. Thanks.

Phil

Phil,

 

I don't know whether PDK does a 1935/'37 streamlined A4 corridor tender. Hornby certainly does. Bachmann don't, neither did Trix/Liliput. Pro-Scale did a hybrid (I altered the rear to make it radiused in plan-view). SE Finecast's is a 1928 type, as is Finney's, as is DJH's corridor tender (for their A1/A3 kits). Any others?

 

You'll be delighted (I hope) to know that the Nu-Cast B1 has sold, for £100.00 (with a further £12.50 to Cancer Research - thanks Robert). It displayed its sweet and powerful running qualities and that was that. 

 

Four friends came today, one for assistance in chassis making. The other three were just left to run the railway, which they did admirably. Then I appeared. 'You can reverse that train much quicker than that!', which I promptly did, only to have it derail going forwards because I'd jammed up the couplings. Then a wagon in a full minerals came off. I hung my head in shame............

 

Lady and gentlemen, thank you ever so much for such a splendid day's operation on LB. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Barry Ten]

 

Tony very kindly asked if I would be interested in building this Craftsman Schools chassis, provided as a complete package with the Airfix kit, and with wheels and motor included. Having got the Cambrian 2-4-0T running to my satisfaction, I felt ready to have a go at this more complex chassis, and here's the progress to date, after a few evening's pleasant work.

 

So far I've encountered no particular snags, with the frames going together easily and the coupling rods needing no fettling at all to get free running, other than a tiny bit of reaming to clear excess solder after I fixed the halves together. Unlike all the other kits I've built, the frame spacer in this case is a just single piece of metal, folded to fit along the underside of the frames, with just a gap included for the main gear. Although there's no gearbox, the motor is screwed to a mounting plate, which can be adjusted carefully up and down to get optimum mesh. Its a bit noisy at the moment, but it runs freely and, as far as I can see, there's plenty of power available from the motor.

 

A few times in this kit, I had to tap out holes for use with 8BA mounting screws. I'd never used a tap and die set, but an aeromodeller mate gave me a tuition a year or two ago, and things seemed to go OK in this case, even though my tap set is metric and the supplied screws are imperial. According to a conversion chart I found, 8BA and M2.2 are "close enough" - it might not be good engineering but it worked, anyway, and I can add tapping to the list of things I can do if pushed. Like many of us, I suspect, I'm comfortable with a set of basic modelling skills acquired over years, but occasionally timid about trying something new - however sometimes you just have no choice, and it turns out not to be as tricky as feared.

 

The motor frame is live to one brush, but since the wheels are fully insulated I added pickups to both sides and just soldered wires to both brush contacts as if it was a normal, non-live motor. After a polarity swap, it ran the right way on DC. I won't be adding DCC to this engine, so there's no complication to the chassis being at the same polarity as the motor frame.

 

I've added the brake gear and bogie as I want to make sure all is well with the basic 4-4-0 before diving into the valve gear. To that end, I'll probably push on with the basic bodywork next so that I can get some much-needed weight onto the wheels.

 

Thanks again, Tony, for your kindness, generosity and encouragement.

 

Alastair (Barry Ten)

[The Fatadder]

^{Going back to the Hornby chassis discussion, if we wanted to save a bit of cash, would it be possible to use the wheels and motion from the Hornby models in a Comet chassis. I believe the axle diameter is different but bushes can be obtained to solve that problem, but what about the axle mounted gear? Is there an easy solution to that problem?}

High Level sell horn blocks and bushes for 3mm axles, along with 3mm ID gears. So sounds pretty viable to me

[Tony Wright]

schools1.jpg

 

Tony very kindly asked if I would be interested in building this Craftsman Schools chassis, provided as a complete package with the Airfix kit, and with wheels and motor included. Having got the Cambrian 2-4-0T running to my satisfaction, I felt ready to have a go at this more complex chassis, and here's the progress to date, after a few evening's pleasant work.

 

So far I've encountered no particular snags, with the frames going together easily and the coupling rods needing no fettling at all to get free running, other than a tiny bit of reaming to clear excess solder after I fixed the halves together. Unlike all the other kits I've built, the frame spacer in this case is a just single piece of metal, folded to fit along the underside of the frames, with just a gap included for the main gear. Although there's no gearbox, the motor is screwed to a mounting plate, which can be adjusted carefully up and down to get optimum mesh. Its a bit noisy at the moment, but it runs freely and, as far as I can see, there's plenty of power available from the motor.

 

A few times in this kit, I had to tap out holes for use with 8BA mounting screws. I'd never used a tap and die set, but an aeromodeller mate gave me a tuition a year or two ago, and things seemed to go OK in this case, even though my tap set is metric and the supplied screws are imperial. According to a conversion chart I found, 8BA and M2.2 are "close enough" - it might not be good engineering but it worked, anyway, and I can add tapping to the list of things I can do if pushed. Like many of us, I suspect, I'm comfortable with a set of basic modelling skills acquired over years, but occasionally timid about trying something new - however sometimes you just have no choice, and it turns out not to be as tricky as feared.

 

The motor frame is live to one brush, but since the wheels are fully insulated I added pickups to both sides and just soldered wires to both brush contacts as if it was a normal, non-live motor. After a polarity swap, it ran the right way on DC. I won't be adding DCC to this engine, so there's no complication to the chassis being at the same polarity as the motor frame.

 

I've added the brake gear and bogie as I want to make sure all is well with the basic 4-4-0 before diving into the valve gear. To that end, I'll probably push on with the basic bodywork next so that I can get some much-needed weight onto the wheels.

 

Thanks again, Tony, for your kindness, generosity and encouragement.

 

Alastair (Barry Ten)

My pleasure Alastair. 

[Michael Edge]

Some of us wish for that, but in a slightly different context. Please tell what body you used Mike. Just another Hornby or one from elsewhere? I believe PDK do a range. Thanks.

Phil

Just another Hornby body

[unclebobkt]

       ....

  Thanks, Bill,  I have just ordered one - that then just leaves drawings for the Hall.

 

Kindest to all,  M..

 

        May I refer you to the following book, (described as 'The first serious volume to focus on this class in the last fifty years.')*, -

 

      The Great Western 'Halls.' and modified 'Halls.';

         Laurence Waters;

        Pen and Sword;

        978 178383145 6.;

        GBP.45.74.;

        160pp.,  with over 200 b&w. or colour photos. shewing each member of the class.  (Each member of the class is excellently illustrated.)*

      * Publisher's blurb.,

 

       Despite the price I hae me doots as to whether drawings are included?  Possibly worth enquiring before intended purchase.

 

      Usual disclaimer.         .

       

Edited October 24, 2016 by unclebobkt