Hornby 2 BIL

[metadyneman]

Totally agree with Southernman46 on the post above. I just think now how much better it would have been if Hornby had produced a 4-LAV... only on the basis that the 2-BIL motor coach has enough weight in it to pull much more than just it's trailer car. This begs the question (sorry)... why didn't they do the same with the 4-VEP?   

 

I will now put my tin hat on , get my coat and as they used to say on the side of fireworks.... retire smartly!

[Xerces Fobe2]

The 2 BIL is a Southern icon the 4 LAV is less well known so I think Hornby made the correct choice.

 

 

 

Hornby appear to have learnt from the 4VEP mistakes, so hopefully the next tranche of 4 VEP's will have an improved motor bogie. The initial problem is how to shift the old stock - maybe some serious discounting or a cheap upgrade package might be a potential solution - how about it Simon?

 

XF

Edited February 28, 2013 by Xerces Fobe2

[bazza.]

Bil and Sub units were diagrammed at times for use on mail trains (Royal Mail parcels) in the late evenings.  Hal units turned up on these as well but were unpopular as they had fixed bench seats in the motor coach.  For mails use the seat cushions had to be overturned and while that wasn't a problem in a Bil (nor indeed in most Sub coaches) the lack of mail capacity in a Hal with only half of one coach available - since first class accommodation was also off limits for mail operations - meant the mails could not be stacked as evenly through the unit as staff preferred; at busy times Hal compartments could be seen stacked to the ceiling with mailbags whereas a Bil or Sub coach might only be loaded to the level of the lower window frames.  

 

The "mystery" Sub being taken down to Portsmouth may indeed have been diagrammed to work a mail train back up during the evening.

 

My recollection is of a regular turn along the Sussex coast.  The train had worked Brighton - Portsmouth Harbour as a passenger duty, returned empty cars to Chichester and began to take on mails there.  AFAIK it then stopped at Worthing Central, Hove and Redhill before reaching London.

Hi Gwiwer,

 

When I was at Surbition most 4SUB's in the evenings and late mornings carried Royal Mail sacks in the guards van, but sometimes 4 SUB on a morning mail working would arrive loaded with sacks in all four passenger cars. When I was there the seat cushings were not over-turned, these workings were unpopular. 

 

Regards

 

Bazza

[tender]

Has anybody tried consisting (if that's the right word) 2 x 2-BIL's together. I tried this without any couplings (just the buffers rubbing together) and it worked quite well although there was the odd separation/coming together due to variable speed differences. When I connected them with ROCO type couplings in the bogie mounted NEM sockets things weren't quite so good. No derailments but you could see the odd carriage tipping as they negotiated any pointwork probably due to sideways pushing/pulling on the bogie by the other unit. I would have thought that carriage mounted coupling sockets would have been a better idea for coupling two motor powered vehicles. I might give Kadee couplings a try and see if things improve. Any other suggestions?

 

Ray.

Edited March 1, 2013 by tender

[Miss Prism]

Has anybody tried consisting (if that's the right word) 2 x 2-BIL's together. I tried this without any couplings (just the buffers rubbing together) and it worked quite well although there was the odd separation/coming together due to variable speed differences.

 

A bit like the prototype!

[Stevelewis]

Has any one   had  experience  of  slow to medium speed  poor running qualities  with  the 2-BIL?

Reason for my  query is    I have 2  2 BILs  and a friend has  3.

 of the 5  2 have almost identical issues  with running at  low speeds,  they are OK when  they run fast ( approx scale 60MPH)

 

They seem to surge and judder...  as a test we coupled up a coach to  them using standard hook& loop couplings   it was noticable that at the low speed running there was a definate issue as coupling between the BILs and  the extra coach slackened and tightened.

 

I have tested the units both on analogue  and  digital  with the  same results  ( and  three different  decoder  brands  were used to ensure it was not a decoder or CV setting problem).

 

We have the  same  problem with  a 5 BEL as well  which we have not yet overcome fully.

 

I suspect the problem is probably down to a quality control issue, with the motor  bogie.

 

I am also considering to look at the possibility of using  the chassis  from a Bachmann MLV as a replacement in the 2 BIL.

 

 

 

 

.

[Tigermoth]

Interesting that, i recently saw on a thread somewhere on here a new locomotive chassis, from Japon i think, with two bogies, each with a motor and flywheel, i wonder if the same problem would arise with that. There's always going to be a difference between two motors if they are not electrically connected.

[S.A.C Martin]

This was also a big complaint with the 4VEP. Watching the video on the previous page, it seems the running characteristics are very similar, if not the same. It is a pity that Hornby went down the route of a standard power bogie, when you think of the smooth running Replica Railways diecast chassis, and Bachmann's 4CEP's design. 

 

The point is that nobody should be considering heavily modifying a brand new model out of the box so extensively as replacing the traction unit altogether, as well as other details (such as that I had to do with the 4VEP to get a decent running unit).

 

My question to 2-BIL purchasers - are the axles clip in, like the 4VEP, or on point to point bearings? That at least would be a significant step up from the 4VEP.

[tender]

My question to 2-BIL purchasers - are the axles clip in, like the 4VEP, or on point to point bearings? That at least would be a significant step up from the 4VEP.

 

Pin Point Bearings.

[tender]

Has any one   had  experience  of  slow to medium speed  poor running qualities  with  the 2-BIL?

Reason for my  query is    I have 2  2 BILs  and a friend has  3.

 of the 5  2 have almost identical issues  with running at  low speeds,  they are OK when  they run fast ( approx scale 60MPH)

 

They seem to surge and judder...  as a test we coupled up a coach to  them using standard hook& loop couplings   it was noticable that at the low speed running there was a definate issue as coupling between the BILs and  the extra coach slackened and tightened.

 

I have tested the units both on analogue  and  digital  with the  same results  ( and  three different  decoder  brands  were used to ensure it was not a decoder or CV setting problem).

 

We have the  same  problem with  a 5 BEL as well  which we have not yet overcome fully.

 

I suspect the problem is probably down to a quality control issue, with the motor  bogie.

 

I am also considering to look at the possibility of using  the chassis  from a Bachmann MLV as a replacement in the 2 BIL.

 

 

 

 

.

Not the 2-BIL but my 5-BEL had similar issues. I ended up buying a spare power bogie for it but it made little difference. Then I discovered Zimo decoders (MX623R), this transformed it. Very smooth from a crawl to full speed. I fitted the Zimo decoder in the 2-BIL's as well which also perform likewise. Never tried them on DC (apart from just touching a few volts on the wheels to make sure it was alive from the box) so couldn't comment.

 

Ray.

[Stevelewis]

Sadly this seems to be quite common with this particular motor bogie; it has quite a large 5 pole can motor that should be well capable of providing adequate traction and run smoothly. However, the lack of a flywheel and nylon gearing (that may not run true) is prone to the effects you mention. I have the class 73 version of it, with Ultrascale P4 wheels, and mine does the same. If you are unlucky enough to get one that cogs (as it seems you have) I doubt there is much you can do to cure it, even with extensive running in. If I was in your shoes I'd reluctantly replace the bogie with a Black Beetle unit.

I shall seriously  look  at  my  earlier  proposal to use an MLV chassis in one of the 2 BILs

 

I am afraid  that comparison of the Hornby Motor bogie to Bachmann's Multiple Unit power units  is rather   depressing.

 

We spend a lot of time  trying to get Hornbys unit  to perorm satisfactorily,  whereas  Bachmann's drive  system  seems to work well out of the  box ( we have Bachmann  11 EMUs a a few DMUs between us).

 

I am not saying  that all  this type of Hornby  power unit are poor it  probably  just a minority, but  really for  the  prices now being asked it  shouldnt be that  way, Should  it??

 

PS  TENDER  re  the  decoders, we have  tried  ZIMO  without  any difference being  noted.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Stevelewis

[tender]

I shall seriously  look  at  my  earlier  proposal to use an MLV chassis in one of the 2 BILs

 

I am afraid  that comparison of the Hornby Motor bogie to Bachmann's Multiple Unit power units  is rather   depressing.

 

We spend a lot of time  trying to get Hornbys unit  to perorm satisfactorily,  whereas  Bachmann's drive  system  seems to work well out of the  box ( we have Bachmann  11 EMUs a a few DMUs between us).

 

I am not saying  that all  this type of Hornby  power unit are poor it  probably  just a minority, but  really for  the  prices now being asked it  shouldnt be that  way, Should  it??

 

PS  TENDER  re  the  decoders, we have  tried  ZIMO  without  any difference being  noted.

 

That makes it a very expensive model. Even then you will have a massive motor block in the middle of the seating compartment, I don't think I could live with that.

 

Clearly there is a quality control issue with some of your Hornby power bogies, I now have 4 units using these power bogies and they all run perfectly (with the Zimo Decoder), why not sent them back and ask for a replacement.

[Miss Prism]

What's the gear ratio in the Hornby drive bogie?

[tender]

Hello Ray,

 

It's good that you sorted out the problem, but why should you have been forced to take this ludicrous and expensive route to get satisfactory performance?

 

Er. I've only bought a spare Hornby power bogie, about £15 if i remember rightly. Considering I have 4 units using this power bogie it may come in useful one day. The expense of a DCC decoder was always going to be there as i'm DCC anyway, it was just a case of finding a good match for the motor.

Edited March 1, 2013 by tender

[Stevelewis]

That makes it a very expensive model. Even then you will have a massive motor block in the middle of the seating compartment, I don't think I could live with that.

 

Clearly there is a quality control issue with some of your Hornby power bogies, I now have 4 units using these power bogies and they all run perfectly (with the Zimo Decoder), why not sent them back and ask for a replacement.

Having been in this  game  for over 50 years,  I feel that  it is  much simpler  to fix minor  problems  myself,  of  course if  it is a really bad  issue  and then  the item would  go  back to the retailer rather  rapidly!! 

[tender]

Having been in this  game  for over 50 years,  I feel that  it is  much simpler  to fix minor  problems  myself,  of  course if  it is a really bad  issue  and then  the item would  go  back to the retailer rather  rapidly!! 

Sorry Steve, I was referring to your suggestion of replacing the 2-Bil chassis with one from an MLV, that doesn't sound like a minor problem.

[Judge Dread]

Has anybody tried consisting (if that's the right word) 2 x 2-BIL's together. I tried this without any couplings (just the buffers rubbing together) and it worked quite well although there was the odd separation/coming together due to variable speed differences. When I connected them with ROCO type couplings in the bogie mounted NEM sockets things weren't quite so good. No derailments but you could see the odd carriage tipping as they negotiated any pointwork probably due to sideways pushing/pulling on the bogie by the other unit. I would have thought that carriage mounted coupling sockets would have been a better idea for coupling two motor powered vehicles. I might give Kadee couplings a try and see if things improve. Any other suggestions?

 

Ray.

When first trying to run two Bachmann 4-CEPs together with EZ couplings and after programming them to run as near as possible at the same speed, I experienced derailments. The first formations had the power cars at opposite ends of the formation. When I reformed the train with the power cars in the centre, i.e. adjacent to each other, the problem went away. So much so that their top speed is beyond what my nerves will stand! Incidently, I tried removing one power car from the formation and ran the train with just as a 7-CEP + an unpowered MLV and it ran at the same rate of knots. After ten minutes or so circulating my layout "Meopham East Junction", I removed the power car for examination. It showed no signs of distress, no hot smell and no lose of grease from the mechanism due to overheating. I would not recommend this treatment but if you have an emergency.... Edited March 1, 2013 by Judge Dread

[Tigermoth]

When first trying to run two Bachmann 4-CEPs together with EZ couplings and after programming them to run as near as possible at the same speed, I experienced derailments. The first formations had the power cars at opposite ends of the formation. When I reformed the train with the power cars in the centre, i.e. adjacent to each other, the problem went away. So much so that their top speed is beyond what my nerves will stand! Incidently, I tried removing one power car from the formation and ran the train with just as a 7-CEP + an unpowered MLV and it ran at the same rate of knots. After ten minutes or so circulating my layout "Meopham East Junction", I removed the power car for examination. It showed no signs of distress, no hot smell and no lose of grease from the mechanism due to overheating. I would not recommend this treatment but if you have an emergency....

That's interesting, if there's a difference in speed when the power bogies are at opposite ends could it be due to the current in the rails at each point not being equal, even more so in a long train ?

[Oldddudders]

That's interesting, if there's a difference in speed when the power bogies are at opposite ends could it be due to the current in the rails at each point not being equal, even more so in a long train ?

I would guess that with the power cars at the outer ends, the remaining 6 vehicles found themselves as the lightweight meat in a sandwich. With the power cars coupled, they can sort each other out, and the trailer cars, pushed and pulled, have no problem, each being asked at any one time to only do one thing.

[tender]

When first trying to run two Bachmann 4-CEPs together with EZ couplings and after programming them to run as near as possible at the same speed, I experienced derailments. The first formations had the power cars at opposite ends of the formation. When I reformed the train with the power cars in the centre, i.e. adjacent to each other, the problem went away. So much so that their top speed is beyond what my nerves will stand! Incidently, I tried removing one power car from the formation and ran the train with just as a 7-CEP + an unpowered MLV and it ran at the same rate of knots. After ten minutes or so circulating my layout "Meopham East Junction", I removed the power car for examination. It showed no signs of distress, no hot smell and no lose of grease from the mechanism due to overheating. I would not recommend this treatment but if you have an emergency....

 

Thanks for that, i'll try running the 2-Bils with the motor unit together and see if it makes a difference. I also read somewhere that when running two units like this under DCC you should turn the BEMF off on one unit. Makes sense i suppose, should stop them fighting each other.

 

Ray.

[metadyneman]

The way i get my units to consist properly and accelerate & decelerate at the same speed curvature is to run them together in a numerical consist but initially about 4 metres apart. I adjust CV5 on each unit separately to get them running at the same top speed and then tweak CVs 3 & 4 to get the acceleration/deceleration in sync. Don't be surprised if the two units run at different CV values to get them running properly in tandem. I have managed to do this with all of my EMUs successfully and derailments are very few and far between. To see a 12-car EMU formation racing round my garden is quite a spectacle and sounds quite realistic too!

[Adrian Wintle]

Thanks for that, i'll try running the 2-Bils with the motor unit together and see if it makes a difference. I also read somewhere that when running two units like this under DCC you should turn the BEMF off on one unit. Makes sense i suppose, should stop them fighting each other.

 

Ray.

 

I wouldn't run either with BEMF (in fact, consisting with Digitrax decoders turns the BEMF off by default). This also means that you have to speed-match them with BEMF off, as BEMF masks drag in the drivetrain so your speed matching may not be correct when the BEMF is turned off.

 

If you end up with the (even slightly) faster unit as the 'pusher', it is quite possible for it to push the lead unit off the track. I presume it would be worse if it was pushing through a set of coaches (my experience is North American N-scale diesel consists where all the locos are together). I always set up my consists to have the faster unit as the lead unit if I can't get them perfectly matched.

 

Adrian

[Judge Dread]

Thanks for that, i'll try running the 2-Bils with the motor unit together and see if it makes a difference. I also read somewhere that when running two units like this under DCC you should turn the BEMF off on one unit. Makes sense i suppose, should stop them fighting each other.

 

Ray.

I would think it's a question of simple mechanics, two power cars a distance apart have the space to fight each other nothing to with voltage drops or anything like that. I keep theory's at a safe distance and work on test results. If it works, don't question it too far, accept it works and move on. This eight car formation has four cars being propelled and four being pulled. If you adjust the CV's so the two power cars will run uncoupled from each other and not gain or lose ground then they will run together without causing stress. Incidentally I did try a 12 car formation but although there is space in the fiddle yard, that space is "only just".

[Stevelewis]

Just a thought  as the 2 BIL motor unit will easily haul  several additional coaches,  why not simply remove  1 motor bogie and substitute an unpowered bogie?

It  should not be too complicated to do it would be nescesary to add  a 'floor' where the motor unit was and fit appropriate side frames to the new unpowered bogie. 

[tender]

Just a thought  as the 2 BIL motor unit will easily haul  several additional coaches,  why not simply remove  1 motor bogie and substitute an unpowered bogie?

It  should not be too complicated to do it would be nescesary to add  a 'floor' where the motor unit was and fit appropriate side frames to the new unpowered bogie. 

That sounds like a one way option, once done no going back. If I can't get the consisting sorted I might explore this but that's a long way off yet. I'd like to keep running as separate 2-Bils an option if possible.