Whadda we want? Wagons! When do we want 'em?

[David C]

Having inadvertently hijacked Ben Alder's Far North thread in Layouts, it was suggested that someone start a "wants" list for wagons - locos and coaches seem to be well catered for, but the humble 4 wheeled goods wagon doesn't - so here goes. Its in the Bachmann thread 'cos IMHO they do the best detailed wagonry available. Of course, if Hornby upgrade their freight stock to the same standard as their latest coaching stock, then that might have to change.

 

The idea behind the wagons wants list arose because of the shortage of decent LMS wagons in the RTR ranges, a rather surprising omission as the LMS had more wagons than any other of the Big Four companies. The LNER had marginally fewer, but the GWR and particularly the SR were way behind in numbers.

 

Bachmann currently produce inaccurate models of the van and a cattle wagon, which really need upgrading to the standard of their more recent products. No one (either RTR or kit manufacturers) produce proper LMS underframes (with J hangers) for fitted stock, which would be especially welcome. The ubiquitous LMS general purpose open would also be very useful.

 

That's my twopenceworth! I'm sure others have their ideas.

 

David C

[Andy Y]

Hmmm, I did have another approach today to ask if it would be possible to have a topic similar very similar to these. I'd suggested it was best to leave the wishlist to take its course.

 

If the topic just turns into yet another string of incoherent posts suggesting an item or two without any intelligent thought process around it I'll close it off. Make it as intelligent as possible and you may have a chance of a manufacturer reading it but that won't happen if there's a string of "MEO please" (or similar posts).

[griffgriff]

I hate to admit it but those poor GWR fans must surely deserve a brand new 'Toad'... 

[newbryford]

A "modern" TEA tank would be nice.

 

I know there's quite a variety of types out there, but I think this is one of the more common ones. There are a few minor variations, but these are smaller things like lifting lugs - so letting us modellers actually do some modelling!

Pretty certain there's plenty of livery variants as well. They've already been around for a few years now and no doubt will be so for many years to come.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[APOLLO]

Covhops, where are the Covhops ?

 

Brit 15

[Penrhos1920]

I'd like to see a new design of Private Owner coal wagon like the RCH 1907 design.  There was much more variation in the 1907 standard than the later 1923 standard.  Many 1907 wagons lasted until after WWII.  At the moment Dapol and Bachmann produce the 1923 PO wagon.  The only route to 1907 wagon is via Cambrian or Slaters kits.

 

The 1907 standard allowed for considerable variety of detail and some builders preferred different types of catches, handles, axleboxes and so on. The variety applied to major things, like the length, to minor things, like whether the bolts were on the inside and nuts outside or vice versa. All this makes for a wonderful variety of wagons, but it also means that a manufacturer could produce a generic chassis and offer several different bodies as a Gloucester body was different to a Hurst body etc.  So 5 , 6 & 7 plankbodies with and without end doors could be made, each in several versions.  A more adventuroues manufacturer would supply different chassis for each body design, but that's probably too much to expect. 

[Ben Alder]

This kicked off from an aside in my thread lamenting the lack of LMS vans available from the trade, and it seems I'm not the only one  with a similar gripe! I am sure this must be on the Bachmann horizon, but three or four early and late types, with a choice of underframes would go down nicely. A retooled cattle wagon is also long overdue- the present one is basically Mainline, and wasn't great even then, and some specific wooden 5 planks are another strange omission.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... the shortage of decent LMS wagons in the RTR ranges, a rather surprising omission as the LMS had more wagons than any other of the Big Four companies...

 I have had fingers crossed that Bachmann will - some day - follow their extremely sensible tilt at the LNER design general merchandise opens and vans with a similar set for LMS, for the reason as stated. You cannot realistically model the grouping onward steam period on any scale without a full mix of the numerous common user types. (Good RTR of the 'bread and butter' types required in some quantity, enables the modelling time to go on the 'never going to get a RTR model' items.)

 

Another obvious group are the twin bolster and plate, and the Bogie Bolster D and Boplate designs, which the LMS and LNER cooperated on. Here's the vehicles for your steel mill products train behind a freight heavy or a pair of class 37s, and they cover the big two groups as well as BR. That's design clever.

 

If, oh happy day, a manufacturer takes a punt on NER, there's the characteristic wooden and steel construction coal hopper group crying out for attention.

[neal]

Just about fitting into this category, a detailed (or dare I suggest operating) travelling crane, perhaps one of the preserved examples would be of interest, Ransomes or similar.

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/crane/c-pics/crane_hk_derekh3690_21feb12h.jpg

 

N

[Jol Wilkinson]

I'd like to see a new design of Private Owner coal wagon like the RCH 1907 design.  There was much more variation in the 1907 standard than the later 1923 standard.  Many 1907 wagons lasted until after WWII.  At the moment Dapol and Bachmann produce the 1923 PO wagon.  The only route to 1907 wagon is via Cambrian or Slaters kits.

 

The 1907 standard allowed for considerable variety of detail and some builders preferred different types of catches, handles, axleboxes and so on. The variety applied to major things, like the length, to minor things, like whether the bolts were on the inside and nuts outside or vice versa. All this makes for a wonderful variety of wagons, but it also means that a manufacturer could produce a generic chassis and offer several different bodies as a Gloucester body was different to a Hurst body etc.  So 5 , 6 & 7 plankbodies with and without end doors could be made, each in several versions.  A more adventuroues manufacturer would supply different chassis for each body design, but that's probably too much to expect. 

 

As you point out the kit manufacturers already produce some of what you ask for. There are also various etched detailing parts available to produce some variants.

 

POWsides produce ready painted versions of the Slaters and other plastic kits, some of which are 1907 RCH AFAIK. Although not as cheap as RTR wagons, there are lots of variants and they aren't difficult to assemble.

 

The probability of the RTR manufacturers producing such a wide selection  would seem a bit thin.

[Dagworth]

'Proper' Freightliner container wagons, FFA and FGA. We've had plenty of the more recent types on intermodal, but the classic type is still only available in 4mm as the ghastly Hornby one that is as old as the prototype or an (admittedly gorgeous) kit. 

 

Noting particularly how high these wagons have come in recent wishlist polls.

 

Andi

[Glorious NSE]

Just a quick supporting post for Mick's suggestion of a modern TEA (some are also running now as ICA's under the RIV numbering system) - delivered from the early 00s but still being built (as ICA) as recently as late last year - good for use in most of the UK, now numbering multiple hundreds in service, for multiple flows - barring major changes they should be running for another 30 years based on the lifespan of their ancestors, and I reckon you can do at least 15 liveries already, that's ignoring things like the similar-but-not-identical (but i'm sure popular) Murco branded ones...

 

 

Okay yes there's variations, but nothing worse than we already accept with Bachmann's TEA and TTA, both of which act as 'generic' examples in their range rather than exact replica's of exact prototypes.

 

Andy's Freightliner flat suggestion is also very valid, and yes, noticeable that it has topped polls multiple times!

[Miss Prism]

Mathieson Models, well known for their 2mm RTR PO wagons, are also now doing 4mm PO wagon kits. (Preprinted on Slaters sides, a la POWsides.)

[Patriot87003]

If i were Bachmann I would be looking to 'gazzump' Dapol and beat them to it by producing the BBA steel wagons.

 

Since Dapol announced the intention to produce the BBA's over 3 yrs ago, Bachmann announced and produced batch 1 of the BAA's, with a follow-up batch recently produced and seem to be selling well. In the meantime, Dapol seem to have shifted focus onto a variety of other items ... perhaps waiting to see if Bachmann follow-up the BAA's with the BBA's.

[The Black Hat]

the Eastern region 20T coal hopper is crying out for the real authentic touch. Some have been done before, but never to the decent standard of some of Bachmanns releases. The odd Cauldron wagon would go down well and the rest of the NER wooden bodied varients would soon mean NER stuff started sprining up left right and centre. Buildings have been done for the area, some LNER stock and engines too. You just need the odd coach and engine and the lots yours...

 

Others that could be done are the Consett - Tyne Dock wagons. They would prove popular and I believe are similar to a midland flow too.

 

For the modern scene, you could do the modern HAA hopper to a high detail standard too, as Hornbys still looked a tad toyish and were always too light. Biomass wagons are bound to be a popular upgrade to the coal wagons that are on the network and have been modelled too, as biomass flows are going to really expand over coming years. One for Bachmann there as they already do the wagons for that.

 

All in all, whatever is done, Barwell certainly will make some fantastic stuff.... they always do!

[brushman47544]

In terms of the late BR steam era, I consider myself quite well off in that most of the wagons I would find useful are already available, but I too would like to see a retooled ex-GWR Toad. I would also like to see more 3-plank open wagons (e.g. Bachmann 37-926) produced. Yes I know there is a current version but that has a BD container. They were common enough for carrying all sorts of merchanise. Also, some earlier versions of weathered clay hoods (as Kernow commissioned as a 3 wagon set) would allow 1960s clay traffic to be modelled. The more modern versions with blue hoods continue to sell well, so why not? Finally some wagons for carrying scottish whisky, coupled with new tooling (or at least a new production run) of the grain wagons in scottish distillery liveries.

 

Turning to more modern air-braked wagons, the big omission for 1970s air braked trains is the OAA open wagon:

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/broaa/h104a5613#h104a5613

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/broaa/h359f0338#h359f0338

Bachmann produces both the OAA and OBA in N, so why only the OBA in OO?

 

And sadly for me, Bachmann went for the wrong Polybulk - I would much rather have the diagram E518 version for grain traffic, so perhaps this is one for Hornby or Dapol?

 

EDIT - and yes a new 21T coal hopper would be useful and seen widely. This version: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweldrebody/h4d9afa6c#h4d9afa6c

[Glorious NSE]

Bachmann produces both the OAA and OBA in N, so why only the OBA in OO?

 

Historically the OAA in N was inherited when they bought Farish I believe, whereas the OBA was a new item under Bachmann's ownership for both scales, so likely it's not a deliberate decision to produce the OAA in one scale but not the other, but rather releasing products with the tooling they had already got.

[durham light infantry]

Definitely the 21T hopper. Hornby already do the underframe on their Tope, this has been pointed out to them many times. Whilst on the subject, Hornby have not only dropped the ball on the Blue Spot fish van, but tripped over it and kneed themselves in the goolies! (Pre-orders now withdrawn Simon Kohler).Why copy the Dia214 which already exists as a very good kit, when the Dia 800 is going begging especially as an SPV?

 

Mike

[Fat Controller]

Definitely the 21T hopper. Hornby already do the undeframe on their Tope, this has been pointed out to them many times. Whilst on the subject, Hornby have not only dropped the ball on the Blue Spot fish van, but tripped over it and kneed themselves in the goolies! (Pre-orders now withdrawn Simon Kohler).Why copy the Dia214 which already exists as a very good kit, when the Dia 800 is going begging especially as an SPV?

 

Mike

If, indeed, they have decided to model the earlier version of the Insulfish, rather than just deciding to use the Parkside model for illustration purposes...

[Flood]

Andy has asked for some intelligent thought process so here goes:

 

From An Illustrated History of BR Wagons, Bartlett et al, we have the following numbers of wagons in service on 21/3/77 (over 1000 only)

 

Already rtr:

High goods: 9601

Freightliner flat: 2104 (very poor)

Air braked goods van: 1080 (various)

Ventilated goods van:14894

Presflo: 1921

16T mineral: 55963

32T hopper: 10153 (at least Hornby make one)

Ironstone mineral: 4686

Bogie bolster C: 3125

Bogie Bolster D: 2681

 

 

Not rtr:

Carflat, vacuum: 1122 (relatively simple conversion)

21T mineral: 9382 (Hornby's is riveted not welded)

24T mineral: 2838

Covhop, unfitted: 1050 (under development)

21T hopper: 26008

24T hopper: 5134

Ironstone hopper: 2509 (various)

Coke hopper: 1129

Bogie Bolster E: 1083

Plate: 3788

Bogie Plate: 1114

Tube: 2879

Pipe: 1556

Coil: 1850 (various)

 

Of the above types the 24T hopper, Bogie Bolster E and BR Plate do not even have kits available. Less the Carflat, any of the remaining 13 types (plus a new Freightliner flat) would be desirable.

[Fat Controller]

Andy has asked for some intelligent thought process so here goes:

 

From An Illustrated History of BR Wagons, Bartlett et al, we have the following numbers of wagons in service on 21/3/77 (over 1000 only)

 

Already rtr:

High goods: 9601

Freightliner flat: 2104 (very poor)

Air braked goods van: 1080 (various)

Ventilated goods van:14894

Presflo: 1921

16T mineral: 55963

32T hopper: 10153 (at least Hornby make one)

Ironstone mineral: 4686

Bogie bolster C: 3125

Bogie Bolster D: 2681

 

 

Not rtr:

Carflat, vacuum: 1122 (relatively simple conversion)

21T mineral: 9382 (Hornby's is riveted not welded)

24T mineral: 2838

Covhop, unfitted: 1050 (under development)

21T hopper: 26008

24T hopper: 5134

Ironstone hopper: 2509 (various)

Coke hopper: 1129

Bogie Bolster E: 1083

Plate: 3788

Bogie Plate: 1114

Tube: 2879

Pipe: 1556

Coil: 1850 (various)

 

Of the above types the 24T hopper, Bogie Bolster E and BR Plate do not even have kits available. Less the Carflat, any of the remaining 13 types (plus a new Freightliner flat) would be desirable.

The High is only available as the steel-bodied type RTR; there are no models of the planked version, either with or without steel ends.

One seventh of the vac-fitted vans would have been Vanwides, which aren't represented in the RTR ranges.

The Bolster D is only available air-braked RTR.

Bolster E might appear from Dapol once the Turbot's available....

If you're willing to try and assemble a kit, there are a lot more available (Boplates, Bolster D, Tubes, Pipes etc.) Unavailable without a degree of kit-bashing are 21t welded minerals, BR Plates and vac-fitted 16t minerals. Not available at all are the 24½t hoppers and most types of Ironstone hoppers.

I'd question as to whether the Carflat's 'easy'- I couldn't get those side stanchions to stay in place. I found building double-deck GEFCO car carriers easier..

[Flood]

I converted a Mainline LMS coach chassis to a Carflat using plasticard and microstrip but I will admit it is more of a simulation as opposed to a totally accurate model.

 

It could be argued that Carflats, Freightliners, Coil types and Coke hoppers are only really in dedicated rakes so may not suit the requirements of the general public as much. If we now included the planked High, Vanwide and vacuum braked Bolster D that leaves 12 types of vacuum braked/unfit BR wagons that would grace any layout from the 1950s to the early 1980s.

[locoholic]

I would like any of the long wheelbase 4 wheel Pipe or Plate wagons from the steam era, I would buy a long rake of the LMS pattern coke hoppers and, most of all, some of the other steel Iron Ore Hoppers (besides the ex-Mainline one) to recreate those rakes of ore wagons heading away from Banbury behind a

28xx or 9F, where it looks like almost every wagon is a different design. Also, a Type A oil tank wagon -the silver ones that were like the old Airfix Type B black Esso tanker kit, only with a longer tank. And the big insulated Meat Containers like Hornby Dublo made. Oh, and an ex-GCR brake van to go behind the O4 and J11. Can't wait for the Covhops...

[Fat Controller]

I converted a Mainline LMS coach chassis to a Carflat using plasticard and microstrip but I will admit it is more of a simulation as opposed to a totally accurate model.

 

It could be argued that Carflats, Freightliners, Coil types and Coke hoppers are only really in dedicated rakes so may not suit the requirements of the general public as much. If we now included the planked High, Vanwide and vacuum braked Bolster D that leaves 12 types of vacuum braked/unfit BR wagons that would grace any layout from the 1950s to the early 1980s.

 

 

Most of the Coil types could be found in ones and twos around the country; shots of goods trains on the Settle and Carlisle, for example, often include one or two. Coke hoppers would also be found in ones and twos in mixed freights- smaller foundries and steelworks (like Landore, where I worked in the early 1970s) might only have a couple of wagons a week delivered. What I have never understood is what a single Coke hopper might be doing in Torre, Devon, in the background of a photograph I saw. Likewise, I have seen several shots of single Carflats in the formation of mixed freights; mainly in the West Country- one was carrying what appeared to be examples of each of the the then-current British Leyland range.

[newbryford]

Of the above types the 24T hopper, Bogie Bolster E and BR Plate do not even have kits available. Less the Carflat, any of the remaining 13 types (plus a new Freightliner flat) would be desirable.

 

Lima did a poor version of a Bolster E, that could be made more presentable with new bogies and buffers.

 

Cheers,

Mick