MK1 BCK

[lankyphil]

Hi,

 

Bit of a specific question, but can anyone shed any light on if the Southern Region had any Mk1 BCKs and if they did, where they used them?

 

Trying to marshall my coaches into roughly prototypical sets according to the SEMG coach sets file, but I can't find any mention of BCKs, even though I have a Bachmann one in SR Green?

 

Cheers,

 

Phil

[talisman56]

I believe the SR certainly had some Mk1 BCKs, but like the Maunsell and Bullied ones the majority of them were 'loose' stock rather than being allocated to sets. The only BCKs allocated to sets were in Bullied 2-sets 63-76, which were used on the Dorset/Devon branch lines and went to the WR when the divisional boundaries were changed in the early 60s.

[caradoc]

According to the excellent HMRS book 'BR Mark 1 Coaches' (Pendragon Books, 1991), the following BCKs were allocated to the SR from new:

 

21251

21263-275

[lankyphil]

So how would this "loose" stock work then?

 

I'm guessing it's not just a case of, 'The 14.36 looks busy, lets throw an extra coach on today...'

 

Would there be services made of just loose stock or would a certain coach be stopped for repairs and a loose coach inserted into the set till the original came out of workshops?

[pete_mcfarlane]

A lot of the loose brake composites were used as through coaches from remote branch lines in the West Country to Waterloo - being worked to the junction as part of the local branch train and then attached to the rear of an Express to London. They had accommodation for first and third class passengers and their luggage, so were effectively a self contained train.

[Fat Controller]

So how would this "loose" stock work then?

 

I'm guessing it's not just a case of, 'The 14.36 looks busy, lets throw an extra coach on today...'

 

Would there be services made of just loose stock or would a certain coach be stopped for repairs and a loose coach inserted into the set till the original came out of workshops?

My understanding was that the Southern, and subsequently the Southern Region, would 'strengthen' the busier trains at holiday periods, which might account for some of the 'loose' coaches (being added to portions formed of normal sets), whilst other loose coaches might be detached at junctions, then attached to the regular branch train. I have heard that the 'Atlantic Coast Express' would sometimes run as three separate trains during the busiest periods, each detaching portions (or individual coaches)for particular destinations on their way west. Very convenient for the passengers, but a nightmare for operators and accountants..

[Combe Martin]

Theres an August 64 picture of a 3 coach set behind green 73054 at Evercreech Junction on the S&D, the 1.10pm Bath - Templecombe. The formation is Brake Compo, Corridor (or Open) 2nd, reversed Brake 2nd.  All green Mk1s.  Its on pages 94/95 of The Somerset & Dorset in Colour by Mike Arlett and David Lockett.       

[JohnR]

My understanding was that the Southern, and subsequently the Southern Region, would 'strengthen' the busier trains at holiday periods, which might account for some of the 'loose' coaches (being added to portions formed of normal sets), whilst other loose coaches might be detached at junctions, then attached to the regular branch train. I have heard that the 'Atlantic Coast Express' would sometimes run as three separate trains during the busiest periods, each detaching portions (or individual coaches)for particular destinations on their way west. Very convenient for the passengers, but a nightmare for operators and accountants..

 

So thats yes, it does mean "'The 14.36 looks busy, lets throw an extra coach on today..."

[Fat Controller]

So thats yes, it does mean "'The 14.36 looks busy, lets throw an extra coach on today..."

Probably not quite as short-notice as that, but yes. A lot of the family groups would have reserved compartments, and possibly used the 'Passengers' Luggage in Advance' service, so there'd be a fair idea of the anticipated loading.

[Middlesea John]

It's perhaps important to some of us to know when these coaches actually arrived on the Southern Region. I model summer 1962 and I have a feeling that I am too early for these but I've never been able to find a date. Does anyone know ?

I have also read that sometimes these and the Bulleid ones were paired semi-permanently with an open or corridor second. Is my information correct ?

Many thanks.

[talisman56]

It's perhaps important to some of us to know when these coaches actually arrived on the Southern Region. I model summer 1962 and I have a feeling that I am too early for these but I've never been able to find a date. Does anyone know ?

I have also read that sometimes these and the Bulleid ones were paired semi-permanently with an open or corridor second. Is my information correct ?

Many thanks.

 

I have a copy of the SEMG spreadsheet (available from http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html - links about 1/2-way down page), no BR(SR) Mk.1 BCKs are listed as being formed into 'permanent' sets, I have done a search and filter on MkI and BCK, and also on the coach numbers listed by caradoc previously.

 

The BR Mk.1 BCKs were to two diagrams, 171 and 172. The SR allocation was from the diag.172 batch (construction started in 1954), some of which were delivered as late as 1964. The SR vehicles' numbers are at the end of the batch so would have thought that these vehicles would have been delivered at the later date, probably as replacements for withdrawn Maunsell BCKs. The use of fixed sets ceased at about the same time as the end of steam and the mass withdrawl of the remainder of the non-Mk.1 stock (Bullieds, et al.) at that time.

 

The 'set' noted by Coombe Martin above is almost definitely a 'scratch' rake as sets were almost exclusively formed with BTK (BSK) vehicles at the ends with their brake compartments to the outer end. Once the Bullied 59' sets allocated to the S&D were withdrawn in 1963 the S&D tended to use anything they could get hold of on their passenger services, which by that time were local only as all the through trains had been transferred away by the WR management which took over in 1958.

[FourSUB]

Only just come across this.

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SRLHCS/info has a list of SR Mk1s in the files section though you have to be a member to view them. Shows several BCKs in sets including three in the Bournemouth 6 dining sets. The Power of the Bulleid Pacifics has an undated photo of one of these coming over Battledown flyover  at Worting Junction at the head of an up Bournemouth express. A Mk1 RB replaces the Bulleid Restaurant but the other four coaches are originals, set number isn't visible.

 

The majority of loose coaches worked to sometimes very complex diagrams with much attaching/detaching to make up the required train sets. The attaching/detaching often took place en-route. With todays fixed unit railway its difficult to visualise how different it was when nearly every mainline train and many secondary workings were individually marshalled from sets and loose coaches. Of course many loose coaches only working in the summer peak and sat idle in sidings for the rest of the year.

 

Graham

[RFS]

In the book "Southern Steam in the South and West" (Norman Lockett collection) there's a picture on page 124 of a Plymouth to Waterloo express headed by 35001, dated 22nd August 1964.  The first coach is a MK1 BCK in green with yellow stripe, followed by a Bulleid composite (also with yellow stripe) and then a Bulleid brake 2nd.  One might infer from this that the BCK has been substituted in a 3-car set for a Bulleid brake that's perhaps been withdrawn?  There's no set number on the BCK that I can see.  But plenty of scope for modeller's licence methinks.

[rogace]

just found this, http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8601473060/in/set-72157603653607671/lightbox/

 

mk1 bck and rb at clapham

[bécasse]

The Ian Allan ABC-pocket book of British Railways Coaches shows that at the end of January 1962 no BCKs were allocated to the Southern Region, and, to my knowledge, none had been allocated to the SR previously either.

 

I believe that the first BCK allocated to the Southern was a "special" (with, for example, ETH) that was only used as the "swinger" on the Night Ferry train, and it was only when the BRB required older Maunsell vehicles to be withdrawn that Mk1 BCKs had to be allocated to the Southern as replacements. The dramatic train service alterations that were the ultimate result of the transfer of SR lines west of Salisbury to the WR quickly eliminated the need for most of these Mk1 BCKs on the Southern, and the Bournemouth electrification further reduced any need for them (they may have briefly been used as TCs to/from Swanage although Bulleid vehicles would have been more usual). I suspect that they probably turned up in Southamton Docks boat trains, and they may have been used in the SR's contribution to inter-regional trains where there was a desire to match the various regional contributions in order to simplify seat reservation arrangements.