Re-painting GWR locos during WW2?

[OnTheBranchline]

I am curious about which classes of GWR locos were re-painted for WW2 and what colours that would have been repainted to? I know that the 38xx were painted wartime-black (from a picture on Wikipedia).

 

Would there have been circumstances where, for example, a Grange would not have been re-painted in wartime-black during the hostilities? A side question of mine is is a Grange with the shirtbutton in 1947 believable?

Edited November 5, 2013 by OnTheBranchline

[TheQ]

Loco's were Not painted "for the war", Painting was carried out when required, if a loco had just been  shopped just before the restrictions came in then it may well have survived the war without repainting. So to get the correct colours for any particular loco you need a photo of it at the time you are interested in.

The Q

Edited November 5, 2013 by TheQ

[The Great Bear]

If I recall GWR Journal article correctly, when locos were repainted in wartime (as covered above), Castles and Kings received unlined green with G Crest W on tender, everything else was painted unline black (presumably with GWR letters only). Lined green (with G Crest W) came back in late 1945 with the introduction of the Hawksworth Counties - first had full pre-war lining, everything after a simplified scheme.

 

As for how many locos were repainted by nationalisation, wore wartime livery or still pre-war livery I'd like to know as my layout to be set post-war.

 

Hope this helps a bit

 

Jon

[melmerby]

It is known that some locos with shirtbutton livery lasted into nationalisation.

As reported above any loco which was shopped and fully painted in 1939 would have almost certainly survived the war, grimy, but still as painted.

A properly applied paint job could last quite a time.

I have a colour picture in a book of a loco in 1939 still with "Great Western" on the tender and in pretty good nick. It would have been done no later than the first half of 1934.

Had it survived the war (it was withdrawn) it could have got to 1945 in that condition!

 

Keith

Edited November 5, 2013 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

If I recall GWR Journal article correctly, when locos were repainted in wartime (as covered above), Castles and Kings received unlined green with G Crest W on tender, everything else was painted unline black (presumably with GWR letters only). Lined green (with G Crest W) came back in late 1945 with the introduction of the Hawksworth Counties - first had full pre-war lining, everything after a simplified scheme.

 

As for how many locos were repainted by nationalisation, wore wartime livery or still pre-war livery I'd like to know as my layout to be set post-war.

 

Hope this helps a bit

 

Jon

I have a contemporaneous report in a magazine of the time that a 'King' and a 'Castle' were observed at Swindon in 1942 being repainted in fully lined livery.  The report does not indicate that this was unusual beyond the fact that they were being fully repainted and not just turned out as they came in/patch painted.

[The Great Bear]

It is known that some locos with shirtbutton livery lasted into nationalisation.

As reported above any loco which was shopped and fully painted in 1939 would have almost certainly survived the war, grimy, but still as painted.

A properly applied paint job could last quite a time.

I have a colour picture in a book of a loco in 1939 still with "Great Western" on the tender and in pretty good nick. It would have been done no later than the first half of 1934.

Had it survived the war (it was withdrawn) it could have got to 1945 in that condition!

 

Keith

 

Good. No need to potentially damage my ROD then. Not that the logo would be visible under the grime anyway.

[Miss Prism]

I have a contemporaneous report in a magazine of the time that a 'King' and a 'Castle' were observed at Swindon in 1942 being repainted in fully lined livery.  The report does not indicate that this was unusual beyond the fact that they were being fully repainted and not just turned out as they came in/patch painted.

 

It is not known exactly when in 1942 Swindon abandoned lining for the KIngs, Castles and Stars. I would imagine the changeover was somewhat adhoc depending on the state of what was being painted.

[Karhedron]

I have had a look in "Power of the Granges" and sadly there are no pictures showing an identifiable shirtbutton Grange after WW2. Of course that is not to say there weren't any. As others have said, any Granges overhauled prior to 1942 would still have been green with shirtbuttons (and the final batch of Granges were only completed in 1939). It is likely that at least some survived with a Shirtbutton into the late 40s but the challenge will be finding photographic proof if you want to accurately model a particular loco.

[OnTheBranchline]

I have had a look in "Power of the Granges" and sadly there are no pictures showing an identifiable shirtbutton Grange after WW2. Of course that is not to say there weren't any. As others have said, any Granges overhauled prior to 1942 would still have been green with shirtbuttons (and the final batch of Granges were only completed in 1939). It is likely that at least some survived with a Shirtbutton into the late 40s but the challenge will be finding photographic proof if you want to accurately model a particular loco.

 

Good to know. I plan to purchase a Grange in the future and will run it with 1942-1947 livered coaches (including some Hornby Hawksworth coaches), so I would like some historical fact behind it rather than just "It's my layout, mate".

Edited November 5, 2013 by OnTheBranchline

[OnTheBranchline]

I would like to ask the same question about the livery lined shirtbutton Star (like Knight of the Grand Cross by Hornby)?

[Mikkel]

I am curious about which classes of GWR locos were re-painted for WW2 and what colours that would have been repainted to? I know that the 38xx were painted wartime-black (from a picture on Wikipedia).

 

Would there have been circumstances where, for example, a Grange would not have been re-painted in wartime-black during the hostilities? A side question of mine is is a Grange with the shirtbutton in 1947 believable?

 

You might want to have a look at this thread, especially post 9. Seems Rob has identified Caradoc Grange as running in black - apparently off-thread, but you could ask him about the reference:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/32078-gw-unlined-wartime-black-grange-class/

[Fat Controller]

I'm not sure during which period the 'GWR' lettering was used during, but this example seems to have survived any subsequent visits without repainting:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/8418382606/

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not sure during which period the 'GWR' lettering was used during, but this example seems to have survived any subsequent visits without repainting:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/8418382606/

Ah, Reading's 'GWR' tender - carefully cleaned down where the paint etc had worn away to reveal the magic lettering and then passed around locos to make sure that Reading kept it (it was behind a 63XX at one time - 6324 I believe appeared on RMweb in the past).

[6959]

The late Dennis Western (very appropriate surname) whom I worked with in 1980s told me the story that during the war he was a fireman on the 'Western' and fired 'Chirck Castle' which said was the only 'Castle' that was fully lined and used for the 10 o'clock [maybe 1030] off paddington. He said that all the others were unlined black but I think he was inferring that sometimes all dirty engines looked black whether they were green or black under the wartime grime. He did not say at what date he was a fireman on GWR. Information provided in good faith so take it or leave it.

[The Fatadder]

there is a photo in Russell of a star in wartime green (no lining) and G Crest W on the 4000gl tender

So it wasn't just kings and castles (though I suppose a star is almost a castle)

[melmerby]

Ah, Reading's 'GWR' tender - carefully cleaned down where the paint etc had worn away to reveal the magic lettering and then passed around locos to make sure that Reading kept it (it was behind a 63XX at one time - 6324 I believe appeared on RMweb in the past).

This seemed to have happened with more than one GWR loco/tender.

Mischievous cleaners no doubt "overdoing it" somewhat to reveal the former insignia once it started to show through.

 

Keith

[County of Yorkshire]

DId the Halls ever receive wartime black, and/or 'GWR' as opposed to G-Crest-W on the tender, at any point? I've never seen evidence for either.

[Martino]

Slightly off topic, but my rather yellowed Ian Allen Locospotter's notebook tells me that on 8th September 1964, 6854 Roundhill Grange left the exchange sidings at Slough and proceeded with an up goods through the relief platform. I noted that it had a GWR shirt button roundel on the tender.

 

I remember it like it was yesterday, as the saying goes!

[Karhedron]

DId the Halls ever receive wartime black, and/or 'GWR' as opposed to G-Crest-W on the tender, at any point? I've never seen evidence for either.

Not sure about wartime black. I think they probably did but finding evidence from the war years is always going to be tricky.

 

The only example of a Hall with GWR on the tender I can recall was one of the oil burning examples. There may have been others but I think G(crest)W was the norm.

 

 

Slightly off topic, but my rather yellowed Ian Allen Locospotter's notebook tells me that on 8th September 1964, 6854 Roundhill Grange left the exchange sidings at Slough and proceeded with an up goods through the relief platform. I noted that it had a GWR shirt button roundel on the tender.

 

Interesting. I wonder if this could have been the Shirtbutton tender that ended up behind 8708 Cookham Manor. Pure speculation on my part but I doubt there were many shirtbutton tenders around at the end of WR steam.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Karhedron

[nigel newling]

... so how do we explain this photo? Have they simply got the date wrong?

 

http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p608550011/h2F40EC66#h2f40ec66

[coachmann]

A good case for continuing lining out at least the 'Kings' would be to keep the art of lining alive and carry on training new painters? No one knew how long war would last and life had to carry on as best it could around the imposed restrictions.

[Coombe Barton]

We had a discussion 3 1/2 years ago about why the Shirtbutton was changed in the middle of the war http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14523-why-did-the-shirtbutton-change/

[Karhedron]

... so how do we explain this photo? Have they simply got the date wrong?

 

http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p608550011/h2F40EC66#h2f40ec66

That would be the simplest explanation. It looks like the late 20s-early 30s livery. Hard to believe that would still be in place on a top-link loco 15 years later.

[Martino]

Not sure about wartime black. I think they probably did but finding evidence from the war years is always going to be tricky.

 

The only example of a Hall with GWR on the tender I can recall was one of the oil burning examples. There may have been others but I think G(crest)W was the norm.

 

 

 

 

Interesting. I wonder if this could have been the Shirtbutton tender that ended up behind 8708 Cookham Manor. Pure speculation on my part but I doubt there were many shirtbutton tenders around at the end of WR steam.

It could well have been. My recollection is that Roundhill Grange came through Slough with a 3500gal tender, although all the photos I've found of her show a large tender. Again, without going back to my colour slides, when 7808 Cookham Manor turned up to the GWS Taplow open day, she had a 3500 gal tender I think. Edited November 13, 2013 by Martino

[OnTheBranchline]

By the way, the 47xx class got the express G W passenger livery (evidence being in the May 2013 Steam Days issue).