Minories Holborn viaduct

[Clive Mortimore]

Oh I realised that. Just wanted to pick a year that I knew was blue and loco hauled. What years would have seen blue and green locos? I'll admit it's not my era!

Hi Dave

 

Blue and green change over gathered momentum from 1966 and was almost over by 1971ish. I am sure there are loads on of members who could say which locos were still green when renumbered to TOPS. From 1970 it would have been possible when trainspotting to only see blue locos and DMUs with blue grey coaches during a few hours session. Saying that a week later, same place, same time and there could be a mixture old and new liveries.

 

As for Cromptonnut's link, it was the old Metropolitan and Great Northern lines station the accident happened in. At the time it was operated by London Transport not BR. The line transferred to BR in 1977 with the introduction of the 313 units and the electrification to Royston. The Widened lines station ceased being used by BR at the same time as the transfer of the underground station as the lines to Kings Cross from the Met were taken out of use.

 

I am sure if we were to all look hard enough we could find an accident close to and near the date of most peoples time period and layout.

 

I travelled through Moorgate that day, on the Met line from Liverpool Street to Kings Cross, the train did not stop. It wasn't until I got back to my home in Bedford and saw the telly I knew about the tragedy. 

[bluebottle]

CJF's "Modular Minories" doesn't seem to be well known, so I'll add my CorelDRAW redrawing from the source mentioned earlier. I've even included the rail links to connect the modules, in case anyone wants to print it out, mount it on card, cut it out and use it to try out different permutations. Hours of fun for all the family! Note the pointwork on the junction module; a curved crossing and a looong curved turnout. Not CJF's usual style.

 

 

Edit: Added detail & labels to plan, bringing it closer to CJF's original. 

Edited November 27, 2013 by bluebottle

[Pacific231G]

Note the pointwork on the junction module; a curved crossing and a looong curved turnout. Not CJF's usual style.

 

minories 1981.jpg

Thanks for drawing those up Blubottle. They're clearer than CJF's original sketches!

I wonder if his move to from Peco meant that he no longer felt obliged to base his plans on their standard trackwork. I've tried drawing "Blackfriars Junction" with Peco medium radius points, a curved point and a long crossover and it's doable but looks a bit awkward. With a bit less less approach trackwork than CJF's 4 ft by 18inch original, it is quite a large lump at about 42 inches by 16. With bespoke pointwork It would certainly be smoother but I'm not sure how much more compact using the same 36" (900mm) minimum radius. I rather suspect he was still using the dimensions of Peco track to get the overall sizes but smoothing the plans out for his sketches in MR.

 

 

The idea of a layout made up of self contained but oddly shaped modules wasn't completely new. Inversnecky and Drambuie - R.W.G.Bryants early 2mm scale layout with each station stored in one of a variety of old musical instrument cases- was like that. There was a topic on it here last year and it's preserved at the NRM .

CJF suggested for his 1981 version that, apart from the station buildings at Minories terminus, the modules would only include the track level of the viaducts with no scenery beyond. The viaduct parapets would form the edges of the baseboards so not even the arches would need to be modelled. It sounds a bit like the large scale layouts for live steam that appear at various shows. It's an interesting idea and I wonder how the public would react to such a radical departure from the railway in a landscape norm in a smaller scale.

CJF was always rather good at questioning the current accepted modelling wisdom (even when he'd been largely responsible for it) as in suggesting a busy urban terminus in the space normally considered for a BLT.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Pacific231G

[Xerces Fobe2]

The DC Lines track layout at Watford Junction is basically Minories with an extra platform - now there's an idea

 

XF

[AndyB]

I was wondering if anyone had ever thought of using The Minories trackplan as one end of a through station. The "non-modelled" end being a fiddle yard (traverser).

I had a Minories terminus on a previous layout and miss the operational interest. Gordon (Bluebottle), Dave et al, thanks for the additional trackplans - it has got me thinking!

Best, Andy 

Edited November 27, 2013 by AndyB

[Joseph_Pestell]

CJF's "Modular Minories" doesn't seem to be well known, so I'll add my CorelDRAW redrawing from the source mentioned earlier. I've even included the rail links to connect the modules, in case anyone wants to print it out, mount it on card, cut it out and use it to try out different permutations. Hours of fun for all the family! Note the pointwork on the junction module; a curved crossing and a looong curved turnout. Not CJF's usual style.

 

minories 1981.jpg

Has the MPD module been drawn in mirror-image? Seems very strange to have facing leads.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I was wondering if anyone had ever thought of using The Minories trackplan as one end of a through station. The "non-modelled" end being a fiddle yard (traverser).

I had a Minories terminus on a previous layout and miss the operational interest. Gordon (Bluebottle), Dave et al, thanks for the additional trackplans - it has got me thinking!

Best, Andy 

 

That is the basis of a simplified model (can't remember the exact name) of the east end of Leeds station. This enables mainline trains to terminate that are in fact only part length. So, for instance, an HST can be represented by 1 power car + 1 trailer as the rest of the train remains off-scene. Only the shorter trains run through to the other fiddleyard.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Like others, I was not aware of this alternative version by CJF of Minories (I was living abroad in 1981).

 

For urban layouts, I think the whole idea of track on viaducts rather than cuttings is much better as it allows one to see the trains so much better. Easy enough in an urban context to find a suitably tall building to hide the exit to fiddle yard.

[Clive Mortimore]

I was wondering if anyone had ever thought of using The Minories trackplan as one end of a through station. The "non-modelled" end being a fiddle yard (traverser).

I had a Minories terminus on a previous layout and miss the operational interest. Gordon (Bluebottle), Dave et al, thanks for the additional trackplans - it has got me thinking!

Best, Andy 

Hi Andy

 

The Metropolitan Railway did, they called it Liverpool Street. As stated before Cyril Freezer took his inspitartion for the track plan from the Kings Cross end of the Met Rly station. See http://www.harsig.org/PDF/CircleWidened.pdf and http://www.harsig.org/PDF/Met1933.pdf

 

Edit the last link is nearly the whole train set, it is missing the roundy roundy bit and the GWR BLT

Edited November 27, 2013 by Clive Mortimore

[clecklewyke]

For urban layouts, I think the whole idea of track on viaducts rather than cuttings is much better as it allows one to see the trains so much better. Easy enough in an urban context to find a suitably tall building to hide the exit to fiddle yard.

 

You mean like this?

 

 

Ian

[bluebottle]

I was wondering if anyone had ever thought of using The Minories trackplan as one end of a through station. The "non-modelled" end being a fiddle yard (traverser).

 

That is the basis of a simplified model (can't remember the exact name) of the east end of Leeds station. This enables mainline trains to terminate that are in fact only part length. So, for instance, an HST can be represented by 1 power car + 1 trailer as the rest of the train remains off-scene. Only the shorter trains run through to the other fiddleyard.

 

I take it that you refer to Paul Flynn's excellent “Wellington Road”, which featured in a RM supplement on compact layouts a year or so back. I snapped it at Pontefract 2012; the layout is 13' x 2” overall, including a traverser to the left of the scenic section and storage sidings to the right.

 

 

 

Has the MPD module been drawn in mirror-image? Seems very strange to have facing leads.

 

CJF's original published plan was obviously hand-drawn, my re-drawing using vectored drawing computer software, and I did some very minor tidying up of rough edges and left off minor labelling such as “WC”, “coal stage” etc. I also omitted an indication of a trainshed and low-level station building (I'll go back and include these details; the drawing has attracted more attention than I expected). Otherwise, it's as the maestro's work was presented, including the crossover you refer to and the turntable (76.2' diameter?).

 

Edit: Turntable diameter scale 76.2 in feet, not inches! 

Edited November 27, 2013 by bluebottle

[AndyB]

Thanks for the additional info, Gordon. Here's a link to Wellington Road, for anyone interested. 

This thread is getting me nostalgic for my old layout, Highworth.   

Andy

[Pete 75C]

Thanks for the additional info, Gordon. Here's a link to Wellington Road, for anyone interested. 

This thread is getting me nostalgic for my old layout, Highworth.   

Andy

 

I remember Wellington Rd from that track plans supplement. An excellent idea, well executed.

[Pacific231G]

Has the MPD module been drawn in mirror-image? Seems very strange to have facing leads.

No,  Bluebottle has tidied them up but I've got the original article from Model Railways in Sept 1981 and they're just as CJF drew them. It probably would make sense to reverse Cheapside Depot or rearrange the pointwork slightly as locomotives using it would mainly be coming to and from Minories to the the left.

[Joseph_Pestell]

You mean like this?

 

P1060812 2.jpg

 

Ian

 

Exactly like that! Saw your thread for the first time a couple of days ago. What a great layout.

[Joseph_Pestell]

No,  Bluebottle has tidied them up but I've got the original article from Model Railways in Sept 1981 and they're just as CJF drew them. It probably would make sense to reverse Cheapside Depot or rearrange the pointwork slightly as locomotives using it would mainly be coming to and from Minories to the the left.

 

I find it hard to believe that CJF would have put in two unnecessary facing leads when trailing leads work just as well in the space and would be more in line with prototype. I think the MAP printers must have reversed it (not that uncommon an error in books and magazines before the digital era).

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks for the additional info, Gordon. Here's a link to Wellington Road, for anyone interested. 

This thread is getting me nostalgic for my old layout, Highworth.   

Andy

 

That's the one. I first saw it in that supplement as well. Brilliant idea which could fairly easily be adapted for steam era as well.

[alfsboy]

Thaks for this Andy

Tower Pier is one of my current favourite layouts though Geoff Ashdown doesn't consider it suitable for "general public" shows because it's in a cutting so difficult to see, operated by two people in front of the layout and "It is not possible to have something moving all the time which many feel is the mark of a good exhibition layout. Finescale shows though operate under a different ethos". I have seen it a couple of times at ExpoEM and Watford Finescale and, without the constant pressure to keep something moving all the time, Geoff did have plenty of time to discuss the layout with visitors. 

I don't think my photos do it justice but it's made up of three one metre by fifty centimetre open boxes with the left hand including the station itself, the right hand the cassette based fiddle yard and the middle one the throat including almost all the pointwork and the lever frame. The goods line is effetively a separate layout from the passenger station and I think it captures the feel of a tightly packed urban line to perfection.

 

RMW Tower Pier ExpoEM 2011 070.jpg

RMW Tower Pier ExpoEM 2011 117.jpg

RMW Tower Pier DSCF5116.jpg

RMW Tower Pier DSCF5120.jpg

RMW Tower Pier ExpoEM 2011 SB diagram.jpg

RMW Tower Pier lever frame.jpg

 

The operator sees it as it were from the signaller's point of view and it's operated with full block instruments. Geoff Ashdown has included some interesting ideas such as making the whole layout live and then using specific "handbrakes"- short isolated sections- for locos in all the places where a loco might legitimately stand. I've seen this on DC MPD layouts but not on a general one 

I also like the idea of making the throat effectively a separate scene as, although Geoff hasn't done this, it  would enable the platforms and fiddle yard to be longer for exhibtions and shorter for home use. I think my next layout will be heavily influenced by it

That layout really  captures the flavour of the East End terminals .I have spent many  an hour at them when I worked  in Bishopsgate and played folk clubs in London ,to return to Essex They were really seedy ,grimy and tired and I  sometimes fitted in perfectly . .

Edited November 27, 2013 by alfsboy

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

 

 

CJF's original published plan was obviously hand-drawn, my re-drawing using vectored drawing computer software, and I did some very minor tidying up of rough edges and left off minor labelling such as “WC”, “coal stage” etc. I also omitted an indication of a trainshed and low-level station building (I'll go back and include these details; the drawing has attracted more attention than I expected). Otherwise, it's as the maestro's work was presented, including the crossover you refer to and the turntable (76.2” diameter?).

 

 

One of my pet hates. A large turntable looks so out of place there.

[bluebottle]

I find it hard to believe that CJF would have put in two unnecessary facing leads when trailing leads work just as well in the space and would be more in line with prototype. I think the MAP printers must have reversed it (not that uncommon an error in books and magazines before the digital era).

 

If the printers had reversed it, then the labelling on the drawing would have been the wrong way round.

[Joseph_Pestell]

If the printers had reversed it, then the labelling on the drawing would have been the wrong way round.

 

Good point - unless it was added afterwards.

[Pacific231G]

 

If you simply flip Cheapside Depot you get this and avoid the facing crossover and entrance points so no FPLs  rather than three. 

 

This seems better but still involves quite a lot of loco shunting on the main lines and you can't shunt into the shed entirely within the Depot board (I've avoided any points over the join between two 3'6" long baseboards)  so I had a bit of a play and came up with this.

Would this be more prototypical? Single slips weren't available in the Peco Streamline code 100 range that Cyril Freezer was probably still planning with but they are in the code 75 range. I've made it all so that depot and the TT will handle any loco up to a foot long (76ft in 4mm scale) and the shed will accomodate four tender locos or six tanks. 

Edited November 27, 2013 by Pacific231G

[alfsboy]

Mmmmm .I have a Buckjumper so the hard parts over

[kevinlms]

I take it that you refer to Paul Flynn's excellent “Wellington Road”, which featured in a RM supplement on compact layouts a year or so back. I snapped it at Pontefract 2012; the layout is 13' x 2” overall, including a traverser to the left of the scenic section and storage sidings to the right.

 

Wellington Road.JPG

 

 

 

CJF's original published plan was obviously hand-drawn, my re-drawing using vectored drawing computer software, and I did some very minor tidying up of rough edges and left off minor labelling such as “WC”, “coal stage” etc. I also omitted an indication of a trainshed and low-level station building (I'll go back and include these details; the drawing has attracted more attention than I expected). Otherwise, it's as the maestro's work was presented, including the crossover you refer to and the turntable (76.2' diameter?).

 

Edit: Turntable diameter scale 76.2 in feet, not inches! 

Hi Bluebottle

 

Thank you for your most valuable contribution to this thread. It seems that this version of Minories & its additions were almost unknown to the modelling world. Perhaps many thought that CJF had nothing further to add to his track plan collection, or else thought 'Minories, not again'!

 

I'm not surprised that this version of Minories has shown a lot of interest. One day!. Thanks again for your drawings & others for their modifications.

 

 

 

Of course CJF had other notable track plans, the 'out and back' via a reversing loop has several variations (the one I liked has the double track looped around in a way that gave the appearance of a short section of 4 track mainline) and of course Exeter Central, which has been modelled at least twice in Australia.

[Talltim]

I'd also thought of a Holborn Viaduct style Minories, although the disused trainshed walls could be given Cannon St style towers for more interest. It would a good layout for a large room, with a representation of Blackfriars (or Ludgate Hill) and a river bridge before looping around the room to emerge from the Snow Hill tunnel to give a continuous run. You'd need a fiddle yard for reversing and maybe a through station on a viaduct if there was room.

I was contemplating a very similar idea about a month ago, purely as a layout planning exercise. Farringdon at one side, Blackfriars and bridge at the other, with 'city' over the Ludgate hill area at one end of the room and the line curving round behind buildings south of the river to join back to the northern end of Farringdon at the other. A fiddle yard behind Farringdon would allow the trains starting at Blackfriars to reverse. Space could be saved at the the north end of Blackfriars by having the widened lines curve out of the side of the trainshed (hidden under buildings) almost as soon as it enters it, the terminal platforms continue into the corner of the room