Brighton Belle

[petee19]

Now that Bachmann have broken the ice and been the first company to give us a RTR SR EMU and with other EMU's to follow this year from other manufacturers is it asking too much for Hornby to consider producing a model of the Brighton Belle.

Hornby are really the only company producing a decent 00 scale Pullman coach so I see them as the ideal company to produce the BB!

 

Pete.

[Andy Y]

You might be better asking them than the forum. I'm sure they will have thought about it, come back and let us know.

[Bill]

It would be an excellent thing to do. Wrenn produced a version of the Brighton Belle which now sells for ridiculous prices on ebay. A very sound business decision if they were to make it. developing the tooling might also bring them closer to producing a 2 BIL - something that would really light me up.

[Pennine MC]

You might be better asking them than the forum. I'm sure they will have thought about it, come back and let us know.

 

 

I can see this being the EMU equivalent of the B*** P*******; I blame that Treoch bloke meself

[craigwelsh]

It would be an excellent thing to do. Wrenn produced a version of the Brighton Belle which now sells for ridiculous prices on ebay. A very sound business decision if they were to make it.

I hope you aren't using eBay Wrenn pricing to justify the 2nd line? Wrenn has always been ridiculously expensive but its collectors buying it not railway modellers in the main.

[Bill]

I hope you aren't using eBay Wrenn pricing to justify the 2nd line? Wrenn has always been ridiculously expensive but its collectors buying it not railway modellers in the main.

 

 

Absolutely yes! If they were cheaper I would have bought one. Collectors? Modellers? The lines can get quites blurred sometimes. I do not consider myself a collector but certainly have acquired more models than I know what to do with. However to keep on topic...

There was a dearth of RTR southern EMU's, it's slowly being addressed. Bachmann clearly have a hit with the 4CEP and I am hoping the momentum carries over to a 5PUL, (and a la hopeful a 2BIL). So I think we should all be making encouraging noises towards the manufacturers.

[JohnR]

Don't forget that a new Brightong Belle wont just be the price of a Bachmann 4-CEP + 25%. Theres a considerable amount of new tooling to be made, even for someone like Hornby who have done many different types of Pullman Car. And of course the prospective level of sales and associated risk will probably add a bit onto that.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the RRP for such a model was in the region of ??200-250. I havn't checked ebay, but how does that compare?

[Gwiwer]

a 5PUL

 

No such unit ever existed.

 

The SR (and later BR) classification for the Brighton Belle sets was 5BEL. There were 6PUL units built at the same time which included a single Pullman composite acting as a buffet car. These were used in London - Brighton or Worthing expresses and after a few years were joined by the 6PAN units officially built for the Eastbourne route. A typical 12-car express of the time became 6PUL + 6PAN.

 

All variants of the 5BEL cars still exist and could therefore be laser-scanned making production much easier than with altogether extinct types such as the PUL and PAN units. Likewise a 2BIL exists though none of the contemporaneous 2HAL coaches survived despite some attempts being made at the time they were withdrawn, and again when the final few were retired from parcels duty a few years later.

 

Short-term formations as stock was reshuffled briefly produced 4PUL units which were 4COR sets with an ex-6PUL Pullman instead of the trailer second; their lives in this formation were very short. There were also the three 6CITY units with a greater proportion of first class and including a Pullman car which were used on Brighton - London business trains.

 

There is even at least one instance (with a known photo) of a 5BEL running as only 4 cars coupled with a sister unit to form a very rare 9-car Brighton Belle. But no 5PUL.

 

GBP200-250. I havn't checked ebay, but how does that compare?

 

I have only seen one complete Wrenn 5BEL offered for sale on eBay and that went for over GBP600. Single cars occasionally turn up; expect to pay over GBP200 apiece.

[Pennine MC]

 

There was a dearth of RTR southern EMU's, it's slowly being addressed. Bachmann clearly have a hit with the 4CEP and I am hoping the momentum carries over to a 5PUL, (and a la hopeful a 2BIL). So I think we should all be making encouraging noises towards the manufacturers.[

 

I think 'walk before you can run' springs to mind here. Some disparate points:

 

* We've had a reasonable range of DMUs for some time, it doesnt follow that a B*** P****** is any nearer.

 

* It could be argued (not by me particularly) that any 'momentum' should carry over to other electrification systems

 

* I think a lot of people were happy to make 'encouraging noises' about the CEP because it was something with broad appeal. Not so the BB, methinks

[Guest Phil]

I think 'walk before you can run' springs to mind here. Some disparate points:

 

* We've had a reasonable range of DMUs for some time, it doesnt follow that a B*** P****** is any nearer.

 

* It could be argued (not by me particularly) that any 'momentum' should carry over to other electrification systems

 

* I think a lot of people were happy to make 'encouraging noises' about the CEP because it was something with broad appeal. Not so the BB, methinks

 

 

Yeah, I was thinking that. The Brighton Belle ran from Victoria to, ah let me see..... Brighton. Well that narrows it down don't it ?

 

I suppose the collectors could do well, but how do you display a 5 car pullman train in a glass case ? Do they make cases that long and thin ?

[Gwiwer]

Your point is valid but similar arguments were advanced some time ago with regard to 4-car units such as the Bachmann CEP. Not only has that proven extremely popular but if a Brighton Belle set ever were to be issued and given that there are at least three livery variants (Pullman, Pullman SYP, b/g) and two sets of numbers (2051-3 on Pullman only and 3051-3 on all three liveries) there is modest scope. The b/g would also feature roller-blind headcodes while the others would have stencil plates, and the cars were un-named externally in that scheme. So plenty of variety.

 

Three mouldings will suffice for a 5-car unit as the two DMB cars and Parlour Firsts in each unit were both nominally identical. Only the names would differ.

 

There is also significant interest based upon the sales of loose-coupled Hornby Pullman cars, the Bachmann CEP and the interest already in other RtR emu sets, and the enduring popularity of the B___ P______ dmu units. The scope of operation would be relatively narrow but that hasn't diminished interest in other models of limited prototypical scope to wit the Kernow Beattie well tanks (as with the 5BEL sets three only of a kind, unless we go back a hundred years or so) which were very specifically linked with one short line for almost all of their lives.

 

The 5BEL units were not confined to Victoria - Brighton either. They had timetabled duties to Eastbourne on Sundays for some years and ran to London Bridge at times when Victoria was not available. They also ran charters and the very occasional railtour away from those routes and were run empty to and from Lancing Works via the Cliftonville curve at times also.

[Bill]

Mea culpa - It should be a 5BEL not 5PUL!!! Getting old - but it seemed reasonable at the time, got the5 right

[Ozexpatriate]

Yeah, I was thinking that. The Brighton Belle ran from Victoria to, ah let me see..... Brighton. Well that narrows it down don't it ?

 

I suppose the collectors could do well, but how do you display a 5 car pullman train in a glass case ? Do they make cases that long and thin ?

Sure they make cases long enough - if you've got the wall for it - and multi-level too!

 

I don't think the old route availability rules apply in this case. Certainly if applied, they disqualify the Brighton Belle from anything but the kit market immediately. Generally, me having south-western steam sensibilities, nothing EMU usually interests me. But ... the cachet of prestige trains is interesting and I might (I say might) find a Brighton Belle tempting. Hardly a rock-solid business case there, but I do think there is a lot of "collectability appeal".

 

I feel the same way about the LNER Coronation set with the observation cars. We've had plenty of garter-blue A4s over the years and never the stock (RTR) that this livery was intended to pull. An RTR Coronation set would be expensive, but that prestige thing has a way of drawing in people who have no business running it on their own themed layouts.

 

By the way, I don't think I'll personally ever want a Western or Midland Pullman. The line I tend to draw the hardest is a timeframe ending in 1947.

[JZ]

Not that I am likely to ever want a Brighton Belle, but I think a lot of people might well buy one. Hornby certainly looks to have been successful with their other Pullmans, why else would they be extending the range. But how many of their buyers can truly justify running them I can't, but like many others I use modellers licence. It's how I justify having the Devon Belle running in the 1960s and a Blue pullman running over Southern metals.

[Oldddudders]

Your point is valid but similar arguments were advanced some time ago with regard to 4-car units such as the Bachmann CEP. Not only has that proven extremely popular but if a Brighton Belle set ever were to be issued and given that there are at least three livery variants (Pullman, Pullman SYP, b/g) and two sets of numbers (2051-3 on Pullman only and 3051-3 on all three liveries) there is modest scope. The b/g would also feature roller-blind headcodes while the others would have stencil plates, and the cars were un-named externally in that scheme. So plenty of variety.

 

Plus the b/g could feature illuminated rear red roller blinds from about 1971-ish - much to the irritation of the signalman at Clapham B, who hadn't read his notice to that effect, saw them and sent Stop & Examine to Balham..... To these gents, by the way, the Belle was known as "Wells Fargo".

[Dan Hill]

I'm still waiting 00 Southern and FCC 377s as well as FCC 319s. I could however see the Brighton Belle being popular.

[Dan Hamblin]

I know this isn't Hornby, but Golden Age Models are producing a Brighton Belle model RTR in OO gauge:

 

http://www.goldenagemodels.net/brighton-belle.html

 

Obviously a bit more expensive, but I have their Devon Belle Observation Car and that is excellent quality.

 

Regards,

 

Dan

[Colin]

Hornby may be producing a great range of Pullmans, but AFAIK the 5BEL "centre" cars are a bit shorter thean usual which would involve a major retool, not just adaptations of existing models.

I'd certainly like to see a 2BIL as well (no this isn't the start of a wishlist, just an idle thought).

[Gwiwer]

The Golden Age ones are superb, as you might reasonably expect from a small production run of brass models. They omit the Pullman SYP livery however which was carried for quite a few years and while I doubt many people would be in a position to afford (let alone display) a full 10-coach Belle train there is only one unit offered in B/G.

 

But very nice indeed to aspire to. Though I don't think too many will be running around the average layout as they are clearly intended as collector's pieces.

[Burkitt]

The Golden Age ones are superb, as you might reasonably expect from a small production run of brass models. They omit the Pullman SYP livery however which was carried for quite a few years and while I doubt many people would be in a position to afford (let alone display) a full 10-coach Belle train there is only one unit offered in B/G.

 

I would hope, given the price and hand-built manufacture, that they would be able to accommodate minor changes in livery or numbering if requested, at least for a small additional cost.

 

Paul

[dibber25]

There seems to be a fixation with the concept that you can't have a CEP unless you're modelling the Kent Coast electrification, you can't have a Brighton Belle unless you model the Brighton main line, you can't have a Beattie Well tank unless you model Wenford Bridge etc, etc. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of sales are to people who buy a model because they like it. Model manufacturing is about bulk sales to a mass market, not individual sales to folk who have to have a layout based in the right area and the right period to 'justify' their purchase. Much less 'specific' factors like 'customer appeal' are far more important than where or when it ran. Does it look good? Does it have some sort of 'wow' factor? Is it a name that everyone knows? Will it appeal to trainset or collector markets? How many liveries were there? These are the sort of questions the marketeers will ask, and they are the people who will ultimately influence whether or not a model is made.

CHRIS LEIGH

[amdaley]

I can quite understand people who model a particular area & in a particular era being restricted in what they want to buy but that is a personnel choice. I respect their right to do so.

For my own part I buy models from various era's because they are beautiful models & of course thats my right. Its my railway so I will run what I want.

I would suggest however that the various manufacturers make models which will sell in quantities & if its a limited edition then the price will reflect that.If Hornby or some other manufacturer decides to make a Blue Pullman or Brighton Belle or some other prestige train it will be purely for selfish reasons in that it will move units. Thats why they employ marketing people & that is their right.

Hurry up Bachmann or Hornby. I want one of each

[Ceptic]

Hornby may be producing a great range of Pullmans, but AFAIK the 5BEL "centre" cars are a bit shorter thean usual which would involve a major retool, not just adaptations of existing models.

I'd certainly like to see a 2BIL as well (no this isn't the start of a wishlist, just an idle thought).

 

For rivet counting accuracy, Hornby, Bachmann or any other RtR producer, would have to produce three completely new sets of moulds for the electric 'Belle'. Four, if you want to include the 6-PUL Composite cars in this.

In fact, the Pullmans of these Units were longer* than than those already produced by Hornby. They had a different roof profile over the doors, different vestibule windows/doors, and sides which sloped in slightly from the waist to the cant-rail.

Thus, naming but a few(?) extra complications in modifying Hornby's existing moulds.

 

* B.Belle DMBT 66ft.- 8&3/4ins. over Body end panels.

Trailer cars 66ft.- 0ins.

 

1928 All steel cars. 63ft.-10ins. (Hornby Railroad)

 

1923-27 K Class cars. 63ft.-10ins. (Hornby super detailed)

 

12-Wheeled cars. 63ft.-6ins. & 63ft.-10ins. (Hornby's new range)

 

I'm with you on the 2-BIL tho' Colin . I'd much prefer a few of those.

 

Regards.

[jonathan452]

The line I tend to draw the hardest is a timeframe ending in 1947.

 

Way way before my time!!!!!!!

 

The line I tend to draw the hardest is a timeframe beginning in 1974 (post TOPS and the first Deltic domino blanked head code). But each to their own.

 

(However a picture in a contemporary book I possess shows a stored Brighton Belle motor coach besides the Great Eastern Main Line at Maningtree during the mid to late nineteen seventies. Therefore even my earliest time frame, with a bit of modellers license could still incorporate a 5BEL)

 

 

 

[Gwiwer]

However a picture in a contemporary book I possess shows a stored Brighton Belle motor coach besides the Great Eastern Main Line at Maningtree during the mid to late nineteen seventies.

 

Following withdrawal in April 1972 and the piecemeal sale of individual coaches at least one was dumped at Manningtree for some years. It was open storage like this which caused the rot to set in to several cars and which ultimately was the cause of the only total loss to date. For well over 30 years after withdrawal all 15 cars still existed and there could, in theory, have been a matched unit restored had there been sufficient funds and good will.

 

It has taken first the public appetite for Pullman travel to have the VSOE operators rescue and restore several trailers, plus at least get some motor coaches under cover, and second the determination now of the present project to re-create a (hybrid) unit in operable condition to safeguard as much of the unique character of the 5BEL units as possible. Some 5BEL motor components are also now fitted to (or are awaiting fitting to) the SEG's preserved 4COR 3142 and are therefore also potentially in line to run again at some stage though not visibly originating with the BEL units.