Brighton Belle

[10800]

It's the top of my list for a prediction for Hornby 2012

 

 

Please may they get the pre-nationalisation green right.

 

 

 

That would be Pullman Car Company umber and cream on the Brighton Belle.

 

 

Quite so, but Mike was referring to a 2BIL in the post that Peter Bedding then qualified

[Gwiwer]

I did wonder if I'd missed something there and re-read a few posts before adding mine. Ah well - blame it on the Red Laughing Water if you like B)

[The Fatadder]

Mmmm, this will be rather tempting. At any rate selling the coaches separately means I can at least pick up the 2 coaches i need for my VSOE rake!

[Southernman46]

The '1967' version will be in the blue/grey livery which is the one that will be heavily discounted when they can't shift them as it was not a popular livery, not at all. Personally I prefer it and that IS the one I will be saving up for (Cue cries of 'burn the hertic' from the back there)

 

 

 

That;ll be two of us then - can't be doing with that poncey pullman livery

[Re6/6]

Guess where ours will be running! This release is like manna from heaven!

[Captain Kernow]

Guess where ours will be running! This release is like manna from heaven!

I wonder if we'll eventually see a modular Balcombe Viaduct produced by Skaledale - sold perhaps in 5-arch packs!! ;)

 

Glad that this is one new announcement, though, that's going to help the Balcombe Project on it's way!

[Re6/6]

I wonder if we'll eventually see a modular Balcombe Viaduct produced by Skaledale - sold perhaps in 5-arch packs!! ;)

 

 

Don't say that, for heavens sake! That would make it the eighth+ project started, apart from the viaduct, and then released by someone. Already started the first motor coach for the Belle, not to mention expensive Gibson 7Fs and Johnson 0-6-0s,153 conversions, EWS management trains, BP, NMT, it goes on and on!

[tchunter]

The '1967' version will be in the blue/grey livery which is the one that will be heavily discounted when they can't shift them as it was not a popular livery, not at all. Personally I prefer it and that IS the one I will be saving up for (Cue cries of 'burn the hertic' from the back there)

 

The Brighton Belle escaped Blue/Grey livery until 1969 so does this mean that Hornby are going to to do an early and late version of the traditional Pullman livery?

[Oldddudders]

The Brighton Belle escaped Blue/Grey livery until 1969 so does this mean that Hornby are going to to do an early and late version of the traditional Pullman livery?

Certainly this July 1967 view, by RMWebber Robert Carroll shows a unit in Pullman colours with SYP, and looking rather smart - i.e. not in urgent need of a repaint.

 

 

His pic is at Clapham Junction, where the signalmen were wont to refer to it as the Wells Fargo!

 

I tried Googling 5-BEL, but predictably the Wikipedia item is woefully short of facts beyond the vehicle names and numbers. Something as fundamental as the date of painting the poor things in ghastly blue & grey ought to have been better recorded.

[orcadian]

We can get quite close to a date for 3052, Ddudders!

In John C Morgan's book 'Southern EMUs in Colour' (Ian Allan 1994, ISBN 0 7110 2318 2) on page 23, 3052 is shown in traditional umber & cream in 'April' 1969 (coupled to 4BUF 3076!!).

 

In the Bradford Barton album, 'Southern Electrics - A Pictorial Survey' edited by Bryan Rayner, published 1975, ISBN 0 85153 220 9, pages not numbered (grrr!!!) 3052 is shown in blue and grey on 19th May 1969.

 

So the dastardly deed was done to 3052 sometime in the 6 weeks of April or the first half of May 1969.

 

We're getting closer!

 

Richard

[John M Upton]

Rail Express definitely stated that it would be released in Pullman and Blue/Grey colours so I am guessing Hornby have got the year wrong on the blue/grey example description.

[Gwiwer]

FWIW my records indicate that all three BEL units retained Pullman syp in 1968 and were only taken into shops one at a time in 1969. During this time it was common to see a Belle service formed Bel+Cor when on unit was in for repaint and retrim and one of the other two was unavailable. I was one of a party who went photographing at Clayton Tunnel north one day as 3131+3052 were operating the service only to find the Cor was at the north end and the only shot was a blurred side-on view to show the units coupled If available a Buf or Gri unit was coupled to offer catering to those in the non-Pullman portion but a Cor replacement was more common. On one occasion neither of the in-traffic units was available and the service was operated by 8Cig Pullman supplements were not charged in non-Pullman accommodation.

 

I hope Hornby will clarify for us the livery and unit numbers they have in mind before too long. If I am going to invest in a 5-Bel set I need to know it is going to at least be a near match for the rest of my SR stock and not dated to its first couple of years by a 2xxx unit number nor be in anonymous b/g.

[pete_mcfarlane]

You can almost imagine the excuses that BR(S) came up with to stall the repainting of the 5-Bel units in blue and grey. At least they avoided the horrific reversed grey/blue that was inflicted on one of the Golden Arrow cars.

[SRman]

Yes, that grey/blue livery was absolutley horrible!

 

I do hope Hornby clarify the liveries for us as I would be happy with an umber/cream 1967 version (I did wonder about the date given as I thought the blue/grey was from 1969, now confirmed above).

[The Stationmaster]

Certainly this July 1967 view, by RMWebber Robert Carroll shows a unit in Pullman colours with SYP, and looking rather smart - i.e. not in urgent need of a repaint.

 

http://www.flickr.co...cwp/2206509779/

 

His pic is at Clapham Junction, where the signalmen were wont to refer to it as the Wells Fargo!

 

 

That comment about 'Wells Fargo' is very interesting Ian because on the Western the substitute Pullman set was also known as 'the Wells Fargo' and I think we had ceased to make regular runs into our part of Victoria long before the 'Belle' sets appeared so I doubt the term had been picked up thetre.

I wonder if it was used of Pullman stock anywhere else?

 

 

[phil gollin]

This might help ;

The following is a NON-EXPERT history of the changes to the external appearance of the 5-BEL units culled from various web-pages and books. I am SURE there are mistakes and omissions, but it does serve to indicate that the Hornby model will only really represent the unit(s) for a relatively short period of their lives. In particular the original bogies and third class car numbers (changed about 1955), elongated front Pullman crest (about 1960) and addition of air horns (????) will be noticeable.

 

The 5-BEL sets were numbered 2051, 2052, and 2053 when beginning operation on the first day of 1933. The service was re-launched as the 'Brighton Belle' on 29 June 1934 and the units were renumbered to 3051, 3052 and 3053 at the beginning of 1937.

 

During the war they served briefly but mostly were in store until 1^st May 1946 (3052 suffered major bombing damage). Immediately post-war they had minor changes (one unit running as a 6-BEL.

 

In 1955 the third class cars of the 3 units were given 3 digit numbers by adding ‘2’ in front of their number, e.g. Car 88 become Car 288.

 

Bogies changed sometime between December 1956 and March 1959

 

Various changes to the lining out of the cab-ends were made with each successive overhaul.

 

Air horns were moved to the cab roofs around MARCH 1964

Elongated versions of the Pullman crest were applied to the front of the cabs of 3051 and 3052 in about 1960.3

 

Small yellow panels added early 1966 ?????????????

The 5-BEL units adopted the new British Rail corporate colours of blue and grey in 1969.

 

(At the end of 1968 and beginning of 1969 the train ran as 3052 in blue/grey with 3053 in umber and cream.)

 

3051 and 3052 initially continued with their stencil headcodes when in blue/grey, but quickly changed to roller blinds (3053 came out of overhaul with the roller blinds.

 

(Edited 13.09, 28th December 2010)

 

.

[Southernman46]

Might the 1967 version be Pullman with SYP ??

[Gwiwer]

I was hoping that also but m'learned friends above are of the opinion that Hornby actually mean "1969" and have the b/g one in mind. Given that the earlier iteration is said to be "1934" this means that neither will represent the Belle for the majority of its years of operation, viz 1937 - 1969, the period between gaining its 305x unit numbers and losing umber and cream livery. One version will only represent 1933-7 and the other only 1969-72. 1932, the year the electric sets were introduced, will also not be represented as the train was still known at that time as the Southern Belle.

[Ozexpatriate]

Certainly this July 1967 view, by RMWebber Robert Carroll shows a unit in Pullman colours with SYP, and looking rather smart - i.e. not in urgent need of a repaint.

 

 

His pic is at Clapham Junction, where the signalmen were wont to refer to it as the Wells Fargo!

 

That comment about 'Wells Fargo' is very interesting Ian because on the Western the substitute Pullman set was also known as 'the Wells Fargo' and I think we had ceased to make regular runs into our part of Victoria long before the 'Belle' sets appeared so I doubt the term had been picked up thetre.

 

I wonder if it was used of Pullman stock anywhere else?

So I wonder what's the origin of the expression?

 

Were railwaymen fond of musical theatre? (The reference is the song: "The Wells Fargo Wagon" from "The Music Man" that was made into a film in 1962.)

 

Or is it a reference to the stagecoaches in Westerns in general?

 

Wells Fargo is now a major bank in the US.

[Ozexpatriate]

I was hoping that also but m'learned friends above are of the opinion that Hornby actually mean "1969" and have the b/g one in mind. Given that the earlier iteration is said to be "1934" this means that neither will represent the Belle for the majority of its years of operation, viz 1937 - 1969, the period between gaining its 305x unit numbers and losing umber and cream livery. One version will only represent 1933-7 and the other only 1969-72. 1932, the year the electric sets were introduced, will also not be represented as the train was still known at that time as the Southern Belle.

Pat Hammond, who we presume attended the Margate briefing, said the following:

As for the models from new tooling being added in 2011 - let us start with the already leaked 5-BEL 'Brighton Belle' Pullman train, consisting of two driving cars (PulDMBT), two kitchen firsts (PulTFK) and one third class car (PulTTL). The driving cars will be available in a pack and the trailer cars sold individually. These will all be available in both umber and blue livery, the blue ones having different bogies.

[sunshine coast]

Gentlemen,

 

I have written confirmation from Simon Kohler this morning that the "1967" version of their Brighton Belle is in Blue/Gray livery.

 

Regards Trevor ...

[Gwiwer]

Wonder when (or indeed if) he will alter the announcement to reflect that as it is still causing some confusion. As well are we any nearer establishing whether "1934" means a 205x unit number or does SK mean "1937"? If it's the latter then at least one version will represent the units for a decent portion of their working lives while the b/g one will represent the livery they have carried, surprising though it might be, for 30+ years in some cases. I'll wait and see if the Pullman SYP version comes out at a later time on the back of good sales; £300 or thereabouts is over my budget for a 5-car unit considering the already-committed funds for other releases.

[Oldddudders]

So I wonder what's the origin of the expression?

 

Were railwaymen fond of musical theatre? (The reference is the song: "The Wells Fargo Wagon" from "The Music Man" that was made into a film in 1962.)

 

Or is it a reference to the stagecoaches in Westerns in general?

 

Wells Fargo is now a major bank in the US.

The particular signalman in question, called Lew, was a fairly peppery sort of soul, and a stickler for things being right. He it was who sent stop-and-examine to Latchmere for the 2.30 Norwood-Willesden freight the morning it had 3 spare brakes on the back, and the Stonebridge Park guard had put full lights on each of them! And of course Clapham Junction people were all part of the South Western, yet Lew was employed at the 'B' box running Brighton-line trains. In the late 50s and early 60s Wild West fiction - and the occasional fact, no doubt - dominated UK domestic tv, so Wells Fargo the Stagecoach Operator would be much in the public awareness. By the late '60s, of course, an increasing % of the passenger trains there would be of modern stock, so the 1932 Belle rather stood out, especially in umber against a sea of boring blue - with only a few grey upper panels then emerging on CIGs and CEPs.

 

As for The Music Man, well not quite my sort of music, really, with that dreadful-but-popular 76 Trombones thing - sheesh! - but I do recall Trains magazine in the David P Morgan era using a song title from the musical which I think was "Ya Gotta Know The Territory" as an intro to an article on lesser-known railroads of Iowa.

[dibber25]

I doubt that Hornby will have gone into the minutae of dates/number/livery details yet - or if they intend to. We were shown 'Belle' shots of the real thing in umber and cream and in blue and grey. No particular dates were put to those liveries, as far as I can recall. I would expect the umber and cream version to reflect the livery details on the majority of the reference photographs which Hornby has, and these are likely to be colour slides from the late 1950s/early 1960s so the only thing that's likely to be in question is early or late coat of arms. I'm inclined to expect the early coat of arms as that covers the longest period, and almost certainly a 3xxx number. That leaves the very early and short-lived 2xxx number and 'Southern Belle' roofboards for a possible limited edition train pack run at a later date. This is just my view - I don't have any official info as I doubt there is any at this stage.

CHRIS LEIGH

[sunshine coast]

I doubt that Hornby will have gone into the minutae of dates/number/livery details yet - or if they intend to. We were shown 'Belle' shots of the real thing in umber and cream and in blue and grey. No particular dates were put to those liveries, as far as I can recall. I would expect the umber and cream version to reflect the livery details on the majority of the reference photographs which Hornby has, and these are likely to be colour slides from the late 1950s/early 1960s so the only thing that's likely to be in question is early or late coat of arms. I'm inclined to expect the early coat of arms as that covers the longest period, and almost certainly a 3xxx number. That leaves the very early and short-lived 2xxx number and 'Southern Belle' roofboards for a possible limited edition train pack run at a later date. This is just my view - I don't have any official info as I doubt there is any at this stage.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

 

The problem is that Hornby have listed the Brighton Belles as "1934" and "1967" on all their price lists and on their web site...

 

hence the confusion ....and the clarification from Simon Kohler.

 

Regards Trevor....