Guest Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I assume you've remembered all the 3D printed NSE accessories from a fellow RMWeb member? http://www.shapeways.com/designer/SJPModels?li=pb **Shameless Plug**, you'll also need some AWS Magnets, Telephones and Impedance Bonds (once I've finished them in a week or so) **/Shameless Plug** Absolutely... I do need some point heater transformers and lineside telephones for a start. There won't be any main signals on view (just ground signals), so no need for magnets. Simon, the impedance bonds sound interesting... are they going to look something like this? http://www.semgonline.com/proto/3rts.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Absolutely... I do need some point heater transformers and lineside telephones for a start. There won't be any main signals on view (just ground signals), so no need for magnets. Simon, the impedance bonds sound interesting... are they going to look something like this? http://www.semgonline.com/proto/3rts.html Hi Pete, Remember that the magnets are placed at 180m from a signal, which in 4mm scale is over 2 metres, so you might see the magnet, but not the signal Yep, there are the ones, about 90% on the CAD's, so next week sometime I should have them ready, keep an eye on my thread for when they are ready. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Absolutely... I do need some point heater transformers and lineside telephones for a start. There won't be any main signals on view (just ground signals), so no need for magnets. Simon, the impedance bonds sound interesting... are they going to look something like this? http://www.semgonline.com/proto/3rts.html Hi Pete, Remember that the magnets are placed at 180m from a signal, which in 4mm scale is over 2 metres, so you might see the magnet, but not the signal Yep, there are the ones, about 90% on the CAD's, so next week sometime I should have them ready, keep an eye on my thread for when they are ready. Simon Done... More detail on my Thread Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Not so much an update, this post is more of a non-religious Sunday morning sermon about what to do if you're not happy with something! Having laid all the track on the scenic boards and wired everything up and had trains running, time had come to bite the bullet and begin ballasting. I needed to represent the walking route used by Overground drivers to change ends (see pic below) so some L-shaped Evergreen styrene strip was purchased and laid between the UP line and the siding. Using the top of the L-shaped strip as a guide, some household filler tinted grey was spread to form the walkway itself. When this was dry, a thin layer of PVA was spread and some Woodland scenics fine ballast in an almost black "coal dust" colour was sprinkled on top. That was mistake number one. When dry, the walking route was meant to take on the appearance of a textured non-slip surface but looked WAY too coarse. Having decided that I could live with that, I then spent ages cutting some 4mm x 1mm strip into scale 8' sections, painting them yellow and laying them tight up against the L-shaped strip to represent the edging. That looked good, so I then spent even more time cutting some 3.2mm x 3.2mm strip into scale 13" sections to represent the concrete troughing that borders each side of the walkway. Several dozen pieces were then sprayed grey and mottled with white. Once laid, these did look rather good so I forgave myself the "overscale" error and began to ballast... Now I've never used C&L sleeper bases which, compared to Peco, are very thin. It was much more difficult to spread the ballast (Woodland Scenics fine grade grey) between the sleepers without leaving bare patches. Perseverance and a few choice naughty words saw all three tracks ballasted on the left-hand board. This was all wetted using a perfume-type atomiser. Already, some of the ballast started to shift. Damn. I decided to carry on. My usual 50/50 PVA/water combination was mixed up and a drop of detergent added. This was dribbled on using an old glass eye-dropper that I've had for years and always use for ballasting. DISASTER!!! All of the ballast started to shift which I can only assume was because of the lack of depth. After a good swear followed by a cheap supermarket can of lager, I went back upstairs to see what it looked like when the milky-white PVA had dissipated a bit. Bl**dy awful was how it looked and I knew then and there that it all had to come up! It really was so desperately bad that I just couldn't live with it... I'm very far from perfect, but I knew I was better than that! With scraper and Stanley blade in hand, I then decided that the walkway had to come up too - fine grains of ballast had washed into the minute gaps between the troughing sections and spoilt the look of that too! Now before anyone reaches for the "What a shame" button (otherwise known as the Friendly/Supportive icon)... DON'T!!! I really am delighted to have caught this in time and been given a second chance to get it right. Yes, it may be one step backwards but it will hopefully make for a better layout. I stumbled across a thread on RMWeb by Gordon S that I'd completely forgotten about. Titled "Ballasting without tears on thin sleeper track", the link is below. I shall give this method a try using some scrap sleeper bases: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80480-ballasting-without-tears%E2%80%A6on-thin-sleeper-track/ Three or four days of modelling time wasted? Maybe, but if I'd taken a picture of the ballasting mess, you'd have ripped it all up too! I've never been afraid of making mistakes as long as I have the good sense to learn from them, so I'll experiment with Gordon's method and try again. I also have another chance to get the walkway right and the picture below (I couldn't resist taking one disaster snap) shows the remains of the walkway looking like rather convincing 4mm scale rubble. The good news is that all the track including the pointwork on the right-hand board is untouched... I would have been incredibly cross to have ruined that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Much happier! Gordon's method (which I think came originally from Captain Kernow) of "painting" PVA between each individual sleeper may be a little time consuming but it certainly works... Not having a suitable fine tip paintbrush to hand, I was quite happy using a cocktail stick. One of the things I hated about laying ballast "dry", wetting and then adding PVA/water was the way that even on a good day, little pieces of ballast would float out of place and end up on top of the sleeper or stuck to the side of the rail, really spoiling the look. Ballasting time has just gone up five-fold but this is the way ahead for me, I think. At least it just has to be done once... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I've just come back from a 'not quite as successful as I'd liked' ballasting session using the traditional method but with Peco track. Timely. I've got plans for another board that I will give a try using the method you shared and see what happens (but as I haven't even screwed two bits of wood together yet it'll be a little while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I've just come back from a 'not quite as successful as I'd liked' ballasting session using the traditional method but with Peco track. Timely. I've got plans for another board that I will give a try using the method you shared and see what happens (but as I haven't even screwed two bits of wood together yet it'll be a little while. It took 10 minutes to "paint" just the little bit of track seen above so this method will take a while. Placing the PVA dead centre between the sleepers and then using a cocktail stick to "push" it up against the sleepers worked well for me. I might go back to the original method for Peco track (I'm not sure how well this method would work with thicker sleepers) but it certainly was a revelation using the thin sleeper bases. Ballasting is one of those things that (I think) can make or break the overall look, so good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I wonder whether with Peco track you could use the same method and ballast what you can but then add a thin layer on top and do the water/pva/fairy mix to secure the top coat? You are right though that ballasting is one of those hated jobs but very, very important in the grand scheme of things as it's one of the things people always seem to look at whilst waiting for the next train to come along. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Ballasting is one of those things that (I think) can make or break the overall look ... I think you are totally right there. It's one of those 'first hurdles' at which I feel so many people fall. Just speaking for myself: I come across some great threads with wonderful layout plans, lovely buildings, maybe even 'proper' signalling ... (etc) ... but if the ballasting is not up to scratch it ruins the illusion for me. I guess it's a bit like wallpapering, you can buy a quality product and all the right tools, but if you don't take time to hang it properly it's there for all to see for years to come and becomes quite irksome. Each to his own of course - but I think it's well worth taking time to get each step right as you proceed in railway modelling. Either way, good luck with progress at West Croydon, it's sort of local to me, and I'm enjoying each update (irrespective of good news or bad ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I wonder whether with Peco track you could use the same method and ballast what you can but then add a thin layer on top and do the water/pva/fairy mix to secure the top coat? Towards the end of Gordon's topic (linked above) he does experiment with deeper sleepered track. A much thinner mix of PVA/water is dropped between the sleepers to a greater depth. Fine N gauge ballast is sprinkled on and then there's a big difference... the excess isn't hoovered up straight away but left overnight. He found that if the excess was hoovered up straight away on deep-sleepered track, the PVA would shrink back leaving great big gaps. Certainly looks like a decent result to me. I think you are totally right there. It's one of those 'first hurdles' at which I feel so many people fall. In the past I've been guilty of weathering my track so heavily which admittedly does look OK in say, an urban environment. However, the concrete C&L sleeper bases with greater spacing are (to my eye) such a visual improvement on Peco, that I don't want to weather so heavily. Hindsight tells me that the over-weathering was probably an attempt to cover up bad ballasting! This section of line was newly laid at the time of Overground arriving in Croydon that I will have to take the weathering gently to achieve the look in all of the pictures I have to hand. Totally agree that ballasting should be done with extreme care to get the "look" right. Problem is there are so many different methods, all of which will suit different folk. It can be a minefield! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mudmagnet Posted May 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 11, 2015 I sympathise with your ballast problems. Sometimes, ripping up and starting again is the only option. I've found that brushing the ballast on dry with the thin sleepers and applying the glue afterwards leads to problems. Yes, brushing the glue in place and sprinkling on the ballast afterwards can be very tedious, you only need to do a short section at a time. I've also glued the track (C&L flex track) and ballasted at the same time and this works fine. I've also found that the ballast from Green scenes lends itself to brushing and glueing afterwards better on Peco track (deeper sleepers) than some of the other ballasts. These, I find tend to roll out of place more readily and think could be down to the slightly more spherical shape of the other ballast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Mudmagnet, yes - I've often found different makes of ballast have completely different properties. I tend to favour ballast that's more "angular" if that makes sense... spherical ballast will want to move around but slightly rougher ballast pieces will want to "lock" together and stay put. Well, I've begun to relay the track, starting with the UP line furthest from the front of the layout. All of the Code 83 rail can be reused but I have b*ggered a few sleeper strips. Tried to order some more from C&L but despite the website stating "96 packs in stock" I got an email to say that they're out of stock and will be for some time and that they had refunded me. Ah well - not much I can do about that... If anyone reading this has any leftover or surplus C&L (Exactoscale) FastTrack concrete sleeper bases, message me and we can haggle! When I laid the track first time round I turned each section over and painted the bottom of each sleeper with PVA, rather than cover the baseboard in PVA and then lay the track. Glad that I did, as it made removing the track easier and I was able to salvage quite a lot of the sleeper bases. As it worked first time, I'll do the same again but a quick question to anyone that's used these thin sleeper bases before... If I lay the track in this fashion and wait for the PVA to dry overnight, do you think I'll be able to gently pull the rail back through and then cut away the webs? If so, it will make for seamless ballasting without the webs getting in the way and possibly being visible. I don't want to cut the webs before laying the track as every single sleeper will have to be spaced by hand and life really is too short for that! If I leave the webs in place, looking at the photo in Post #184 (above), it's going to be hard to disguise them... the ballast will only be glued up to the webs, not over them. Hope that makes sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted May 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 11, 2015 Hi Pete, the last bit of ballasting I did,I used some ballast bond glue from the shop in Cromer. Couldn't believe how easy it made things Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Hi Russ. Had to Google that... https://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/en/scale-plastics/104-ballast-bond-5060243901460.html Looks interesting. If I read it correctly, it wets and spread all in one. No need to pre-wet or add detergent/IPA. Might give that a go in the future. I'm going to stick (pardon the pun) with the "paint PVA, add ballast" method for this layout but I'll certainly bear it in mind for the future, thanks. STILL haven't been to the Cromer shop... I'm waiting until I need a stack of Wills sheets! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Is there a passage from under the sleeper to where the rail sits in the chair? If there is, the glue can flow by capillary action. However if you leave it for a couple of days then with a firm pressure down and along the rail should slide. Another option is a pointed craft Knife to cut the webs from under the rail. Slow but doable. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Another option is a pointed craft Knife to cut the webs from under the rail. Slow but doable. Thanks Ernie. I think cutting the webs with the rail in place might be best rather than trying to pull out the rail and then re-thread it... I could do without messing up another couple of metres of track! The Exactoscale webs are very thin and fragile and even light pressure from a jewellers flat blade screwdriver is enough to break them so they should actually come out quite easily. I've just glued the first couple of metres down, so I'll leave it alone until tomorrow AM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I ballasted a piece of test track PECO 100. I added a blob of glue in between the sleepers and spread it out. I then added ballast and brushed off any excess and let it dry. I don't recall using any diluted PVA over the top though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class"66" Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Yer ive never used diluted PVA on the top of the ballast on banks road Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 After 8 days, a little mini-update is due, if just to prove work on West Croydon continues! One of the reasons for lack of progress is that C&L are out of stock of the OO gauge concrete sleeper bases until the end of May. Having had to rip up some track after the original ballasting disaster, I need just a couple of metres and can do little else but wait until it's back in stock. One RMWeb member kindly messaged me to say he had some spare bases, but sadly they turned out to be P4. That would have ended badly! The UP line and centre siding have been relaid using salvaged bases and the walkway between the UP line and the siding is in place. Evergreen styrene strip was painted a "sand" colour to represent faded yellow edging and then household filler mixed with grey paint was spread. Once dry, this was sanded back and then given a blast of Plastikote suede effect paint for a little texture. Grey "rattle can" primer then provided the finished colour which looks about right to me. A huge improvement on the N gauge ballast I'd originally used to represent a textured surface (that went in the bin too). Finally, some 3.2mm square section styrene strip was cut into 13mm sections and individually laid to represent the concrete troughing that lines each side of the walkway. The walkway will need a couple of dozen safety lights if I want to follow the prototype, but the jury is still out on how to achieve this. Either brass rod and fibre optics or clear rod with a sub-baseboard LED are the current favourites. Using the aforementioned method of "painting" PVA inbetween each sleeper, have I finished ballasting? Hardly - it looks good but is such a sloooooow process. I can only manage about 10-12 inches of ballasting a night, or my mind wanders and then carelessness kicks in! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Forgot to mention that I also want to represent some sections of trunking with their lids "off" and cables visible. Trimmed H section will be used with lids cut from flat styrene sheet. I don't want to get too hung up on the details, as forward progress will then become horribly slow, but I would still like it to look reasonable. If you're reading this, you may or may not have an interest in 3rd rail, so does anyone know how to invisibly join sections of Peco Code 60? Better representations of 3rd rail are available, but I've used Peco in the past and will probably tread safe ground again. Peco conductor rail is supplied in 24" lengths and looking at prototype photos, conductor rail runs can often be a lot longer than that. I had thought of just using Z scale joiners but they're a little "chunky" and may stick out like the proverbial sore thumb... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Would a little bit of wire soldered underneath to hold two pieces together do the job? Obviously you'd have to clamp it all together to make sure it was straight but you may find soldering the gap too then a bit of filing to take it back to profile might do the job - if you're doing normal solder for the wire underneath then you might find low melt solder works better for that. Just remember that you'll need to feed sufficient insulators in the middle piece if you're doing three or more lengths as you will probably find that you can't get them past the wire afterwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Would a little bit of wire soldered underneath to hold two pieces together do the job? Obviously you'd have to clamp it all together to make sure it was straight but you may find soldering the gap too then a bit of filing to take it back to profile might do the job - if you're doing normal solder for the wire underneath then you might find low melt solder works better for that. Just remember that you'll need to feed sufficient insulators in the middle piece if you're doing three or more lengths as you will probably find that you can't get them past the wire afterwards. I must admit I had thought about the wire underneath, but my soldering ability will likely result in a blob that needs filing down anyway! I do like the idea of holding the rail a very short distance apart, flooding the gap with solder and then trimming the excess and filing, thanks for that - definitely worth experimenting with. I do seem to be causing grief for myself though, as I've just realised the tops of the C&L concrete sleepers sit a little lower than the Tillig pointwork sleepers... The Peco insulators come with little plastic washers designed for use with Code 100 to bring the conductor rail height up a little. I may have to use those on the C&L plain track but I really don't want the conductor rail too high as that throws up fouling issues with older stock. I think I'm worrying about something that doesn't need to be worried about yet, I should really just chill out and go back to ballasting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted May 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 19, 2015 Would the insulators provide the answer Pete? If you plan the join in the rail to coincide with an insulator and use epoxy or superglue to glue it all together Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Would the insulators provide the answer Pete? If you plan the join in the rail to coincide with an insulator and use epoxy or superglue to glue it all together Doc1.jpg Maybe... from memory, the part of the plastic Peco insulator that actually grips the bottom of the rail is absolutely miniscule but worth experimenting with. I have some lengths of blackened Code 60 left over from North Street, but no insulators, I must buy a couple of packets and see what will work. It occurs to me that the simplest solution would be to find some Code 60 flatbottom in longer lengths! Peco's Z scale flex track is only sold in 24" lengths, and this is the length of the rail packaged for use as conductor rail. I know Code 60 flatbottom isn't strictly correct as conductor rail, but the pots are designed for it so it would make sense not to try and use bullhead. If the conductor rail isn't gripped tightly, it doesn't need much excuse to come loose and start fouling rolling stock... I'll have to have a search online and see if anyone does Code 60 FB in metre lengths. Edit: C&L do a Code 55 flatbottom in steel (but not nickel silver) in metre lengths. This must be pretty damn close to Peco Code 60 profile? I need to order more sleeper bases when they're back in stock, so I'm wondering if a pack of Code 55 might be worth getting hold of... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Fibre optics... I've been giving some thought to the light poles along the walking route (see below)... acrylic rod with an LED underneath was considered, but at 20+ poles, that's a bit "LED-intensive". I've got some thin wall brass rod (approx 2.0mm outside diameter / 1.0 mm inside diameter) and I'm planning to insert a length of 1.0mm fibre optic through the rod and polish the end to a dome shape where it appears through the top of the rod. A YouTube tutorial shows that it's possible to gather a bunch of fibre optic strands together and bind them to a 3mm LED using a hot glue gun and heat-shrink tubing. Never having done anything like this before, does this sound like complete fantasy or worth a try? Completely out of my comfort zone here with fibre-optics and such and I just don't want to waste too much time on a fool's errand! Looking at the pic below, the walkway would certainly look good lit up. I kicked myself for not adding working street and platform lights to North Street (without overdoing the effect). Any thoughts would be useful! Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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