RJS1977

Of course there's a place for secondhand (I've built up quite a fleet that way) - but that doesn't mean there isn't also a place for more budget-priced locos and rolling stock as well. There are however a number of downsides: 1) Depending on the source, it's not always guaranteed that the model works well/is complete. Particularly on e-bay it isn't always easy to tell if a loco works, or if the other side of it is damaged. Most non-runners can probably be repaired but it's not necessarily a job for the novice,particularly if spares have to be sought out. Not really the sort of thing to put under the tree for little Johnny on Christmas morning. 2) Second-hand models by nature are usually at least a few years old, often 20, 30 or even more. This obviously limits the range that can be obtained, making it harder for Johnny to obtain a model of the train that goes past his school every day. 3) Prices of new models generally acts as a lid on the second hand prices. As new prices have risen, secondhand prices have gone up too. I certainly don't believe we shouldn't have any super-detailed models, but I can't help thinking the pendulum has swung a little too far in that direction.

I don't think he's saying that. But Hornby have not one but two budget-priced HSTs in their back catalogues and neither are currently available! As I've said several times, if we want to encourage youngsters into the hobby, it helps if they can obtain models of the trains they see every day at a price they (or their paremts/aunts/uncles) can afford. How about a version in the new GWR green?

Still plenty of modern-day DMUs (Adelante, Meridian and 175 spring immediately to mind) that nobody's done yet.

I'd say there is more logic in making a model of something that hasn't already been released, than producing an "all-new" version of something that's already in the range. Most of the people who want a 156 or a 91 will have bought the existing model, but they may not want to/afford to buy another one just because it's a new all-singing,all-dancing version (if someone runs an analogue layout, they're not likely to rush out and buy a new version of a model they've already got just because it now has a DCC socket in it,for example). Much better to provide something else to complement the models people already have (like a Class 185).

Perhaps not while they're in the air, but I'm pretty sure at least some pilots still use them for planning purposes. Only a couple of weeks ago a bunch of guys from RAF Conningsby asked me for an OS 1:50000 map of the Cholsey & Wallingford Railway....

As has already been stated, the person who put the complaint in about the height of the helicopter is a qualified pilot, so a bit more than a "lineside expert". I would have thought there was a big difference between flying a helicopter at 180' for a practical purpose like a pylon inspection and flying at effectively zero feet just to take a bit of video. Quite apart from the risk of the helicopter hitting something, there's the issue of nuisance to people/animals on the ground, And there has been at least one case where a member of footplate crew has suffered severe burns owing to blowback caused by a low flying helicopter.

I remember when I was trying to choose a University 20+ years ago. It took me quite a while to realise that all the posters I kept seeing up for LGB Societies weren't anything to do with 45mm gauge model railways....

I've been having a bit of a think about this the last few days based on other things I've read in this thread. What are the factors which encourage a child from playing with a train set to being a fully-fledged modeller? First of all of course, there has to be parental encouragement. I was fortunate in that my father's just as big a model railway enthusiast as I am which meant I was looking at pictures in Railway Modeller before I could read, and when I was given my first 00 train I was also able to borrow some of his Tri-ang locos to ring the changes. But other family members (mostly non-railway-minded) were instrumental too. In those days most of the Hornby range was suitable for birthday/Christmas presents, and of course Lima was around then as well. Not only that, but with several well-stocked model shops around, all a relative had to do to find me a present was to go in one. Not only did the shops stock rolling stock, but there were all the other accessories by different manufacturers, like Superquick card kits and Dapol/Airfix plastic kits, which were an introduction to the constructional side of the hobby - an important facet - otherwise I'd have been left watching a train going round in circles, which eventually becomes stale and leads to the child "growing out of" the hobby and the set going in the bin. One of the downsides of purchasing from the Hornby website is that naturally it only covers Hornby products so the constructional models don't really get a look in. This means that the well-meaning relatives looking for little Johnny's present only see the trains and the ready-to-plant buildings, so he gets deprived of that side of the hobby and is more likely to drop out. A child is also more likely to be encouraged in the hobby if their father is active in it - but fathers with young families are largely missing from the hobby themselves these days, partly at least because this is the time of life where they have mortgages to pay and mouths to feed, and not enough disposable cash to afford the mainstream models, which of course are too delicate for little Johnny's hands anyway. So I think a decent range of more affordable models is a must, both for the youngsters and their parents, along with more constructional models either in the Hornby range,or at least linked to it from their website, in much the same way as Ratio/Wills etc are from the Peco site (in some ways I can't help thinking that a merger/takeover of Hornby and Peco could serve the hobby quite well!). Likewise as much support for the remaining model shops as possible. Mention was also made in the Independent article of the hobby having little appeal for the sort of children who "can build half a dozen robots in an afternoon". Yet there are plenty of railway accoutrements which could be motorised without too much expense - level crossings, cranes, water cranes, semaphore signals, uncouplers etc. Servos can be obtained for about £1:50 each and MERG do a range of 'Pocket Money' electronic kits for under £2, including a couple of servo drivers. If Hornby were to put together a similar 'accessory motorisation pack', containing a piece of breadboard (as opposed to the Veroboard of the MERG kits), a bag of components and a servo (or more than one in the case of a level crossing) for around the £5-£6 mark, and make it available with the accessories, it would be something capable of appealing to the robotic-minded child but of course would be of use to the adult modeller as well. None of which of course guarantees that Johnny will still be in the hobby as an adult, but it increases the chances!

Left for Titfield!

I think the two markets can (probably) co-exist.Unfortunately I think at the moment the balance has swung too far towards the adult collectors and there isn't enough available for the young/those who can't afford/justify purchasing the expensive models.

Three fish met in the middle of a river. The first fish realised that the second fish was a type of fish he hadn't encountered before so he asked him what type of fish he was. Before the second fish could answer, the third called out, "Don't tell him,Pike!"

The X-Type was also the first Jaguar to be built at the former Ford plant at Halewood - IIRC the last Escorts(?) built at that plant were the best specced ever built as they were built to Jag specs!

Ultimately the question is - what's best for the hobby? More of a move to nice-but-pricey items, which chases an ever-decreasing market as older customers die off and others are priced out, or cheaper,less-well detailed models with the intention of getting as many people (particularly the young) into this hobby as possible?

But as it would be the only RTR model of a Peckett I'm pretty sure that if it was a less-detailed model at a lower price people would still buy it (especially if the separately-fitted details were available as an optional extra,and perhaps if the retailers offered a detail fitting service).

1) No - because a) it opens it up to sales to people who want a more protoypical loco than a Caley pug or 101 and can't afford/justify a super-detailed one, or just want to add to their collection/ train set and b) it opens up the market for heritage railways/museums etc to sell models of their own Pecketts as and when Hornby release them (even if they're a different W variant). 2) It doesn't cost any more to produce a dimensionally accurate model than an inaccurate one. The Pug and 101 are pretty accurate models of their prototypes, what lets them down (or has done in the past) is the gearing - again,it shouldn't cost any more to produce a model with the correct gear ratio than one with the wrong ratio. I know both these models have probably repaid their tooling many times over but they were never the equivalent of £80 (if they were my dad wouldn't have bought me one,and I probably wouldn't be in the hobby now!). So I'm not completely sure why the Peckett costs as much as it does. If it's separately fitted detail, either sell it as a plain model with the details available as an add-on pack and/or sell some without fitted detail (for a lower price) and some with.

I agreed with everything you said until you got to the bit about making DCC standard. Sorry, but - despite Steve Flint's assertions to the contrary in the current RM - I'd say about 50% of layouts I see at exhibitions are still analogue. Fitting chips as standard adds £15-£20 to the price for those who don't use DCC (or for those who do want DCC but want a different chip). What I would suggest though is putting the socket somewhere like under a removable coal load where possible so the loco doesn't need to be dismantled to fit a chip. (Even adding the socket probably adds at least £5 to the price for anyone who has no intention of going DCC!) Personally I'm a little disappointed the Peckett has come out as a high-end model as - with the wide choice of prototypical liveries it would have made an ideal starter loco (if it was priced at around £40 I suspect Reading Museum would be able to sell quite a few of the H&P version!). Provided it was dimensionally accurate and runs well, anyone who wanted a Peckett would still have bought it but it would have opened it up to more people who couldn't otherwise afford/justify it. Edit - and opened it up more for conversion to other variants.

And the reason it doesn't is because the move towards expensive super-detail models has pulled the rug away from the younger modellers. Buy them a train set, then what next? I've said many times before that there need to be at least 3 or 4 affordable models of locos from each of the Big 4 ( e.g. King, Dean Goods, Pannier, 14XX), BR steam and particularly present day to enable a youngster to get a collection started with suitable encouragement from birthday/Christmas presents. If a young lad say attending a school beside the GWR main line wants a model of the trains he sees every day, he goes on the Hornby website - HST £225 without coaches! The younger generation may drop out of the hobby for a while due to schoolwork, girls,other hobbies, families of their own etc, but they can't return to a hobby if they were never in it to start off with!

Personally I think the building should be Listed!

I didn't say I'd buy them both at the same time...

People aren't necessarily sitting on their hands waiting for 'desparation discounting' - though it does help! Sometimes we can't always afford/justify buying a model at a particular time, either because a number of new releases have come out together,or because of an unexpected bill or just because we have to save up for our purchases. twenty or thirty years ago, a loco may have cost 6 months' or more pocket money, but at least we knew there would still be some available in 6 months' time. Whilst limited editions for the collectors' market can command high prices (and need to, because the fixed costs are spread over a shorter run), is it really healthier for the business than selling more at a lower price, with the fixed costs spread over a longer run? Take the Peckett as an example. At £80 I find myself questioning whether or not I can justify one - had they been £60, I may well have bought two!

Exactly. You can't keep pricing people out of the hobby and expect sales to rise at the same time.

Corgi have certainly done unpainted models (Ford Transits IIRC) in the past, so wouldn't be a first for the Hornby group.

Personally I'd settle for one in undercoat/primer to enable anyone to add their own livery. Not much point having one lined if it's the wrong colour! (And naturally,I'd expect an unpainted model to be sold at a lower price than a painted one).