MarshLane

Hi Al, Wow your thundering on with this! The buildings look great! Had a trip out to High Peak last weekend, so if you need/want any detail shots of the buildings let me know. Rich

Feel free Glad it was of use to you! Exactly. With just one loco there, you'd fine that trains would arrive from the left and depart to the right or vice-versa. With an 08 present then there is a way of getting the loco onto the other end, so could do either. Thats fair enough. Id say you've got three roads, a loading road (Which could be a bunker or pad), an arrival road and a departure road (or arrival/departure and headshunt). In either case, once the train has arrive, it would need to clear both of the points. The 08, would then potter out and couple to the rear of the train, and pull it into the top road - the one I'm suggesting would be the loading pad road. There it can be loaded and pulled forward as necessary. The BR loco would remain in the arrival road until this is complete, then the next movements would depend on whether you have arrival and departure roads, or an arrival/departure and headshunt. In the former, the 08 would propel the wagons back, under the shunters guidance, into the departure road, and return to the loading pad road, at least a couple of loco lengths clear of the points. The BR loco would then shunt into the same siding, clear of the points, before reversing into the departure road to couple and allow the shunter to do the brake test. If you have an arrival/departure road and a headshunt, then once the train has been loaded, the shunter would call the BR loco down. Now lets say it arrived from the right fiddle yard and departing to the left, then the loco would be on the buffer stops in the arrival/departure road. It would pull down onto the wagons in the loading road, and be re-coupled. Depending on local instruction it may have stayed coupled in the first place, but more the exception that the rule. The 08 would be detached, and the BR loco would pull the train back into the arrival/departure road, before setting back onto the main line under the shunters instruction. If its going the other way, left to right, then the need for the 08 is diminished quite severely, as the loco would be on the lead end after propelling off the main line, so it would haul into the loading pad, the 08 may be used to haul it back out, but more likely it would be propelled, then depart as normal. On the railway, propelling moves where the driver is at the rear of the train are avoided as much as possible. more chance of an accident, more chance of a derailment and additional costs, as the shunter has to be provided to be the drivers eyes at the back of the train - if he's on the ground, then thats more risk of an accident. Hence if you wanted to keep things as realistic as possible, trains running right to left would provide more work for the 08. You could use the one of the bottom sidings as loading pad as you say, and use the 08 for shuffling the wagons, but again remember that the 08 would collect the wagons, the BR loco wouldn't propel them onto it. No problem! Rich

I forgot to add - signalling is a fascinating subject I find, complex at times (especially when you get in to point locks, mechnical locking, signal overlaps etc!), but quite enjoyable in a model form when you get your head around it. Berko are suppose to be good, I've had friends use them, although haven't personally had any experience of Traintronics - there's also Absolute Aspects that might be a bit more expensive, but they are brass and 'plug-n-play' so no building involved on your part, and they do 2 and 3 aspect, along with feathers and ground signals. www.absoluteaspects.com I think - no connection with them other than the occasional chat! Rich

Hi Leon, Your welcome, happy to help! No two or three aspect doesn't matter. Obviously if your using two aspect, they'll all be red and green. In a normal circumstance, two aspect would likely be used back in the 1980s as straight replacements for semaphores, under local control, in which case there might have been a yellow/green distant as well, but the distances you have that couldn't be replicated. So thinking about it from a realistic point of view three aspect is probably more likely, but either would be fine. Re: Loading point. There are always exceptions to the rule, but generally ground frames don't control ground signals. You have to put yourself in the position of the guys on the ground. There is likely to be a driver and shunter (probably a secondment too in the early-mid 1980s). So the shunter is in control of all movements, now if you have signals controlled from the local SB or powerbox, then the shunter is liaising with the loading point staff and the signaller, which provides added complications - the big aspect of all movements on the BIG railway is as simple as possible, and clear lines of communication, less chance for things to go wrong. So therefore, if the points in the loading point are controlled from the ground frame by the shunter, it takes the signaller out of the equation. Once the train has arrived and is clear of the main line track circuits, the points are put back and he can forget about the train until he gets a call requesting departure. Meanwhile, the shunter liaises with the loading point staff over what is needed to load the train, directs the driver verbally - either by face to face talking or radios - or by hand-signals where there is a "clear line of sight". So if we follow the process through - I'm treating the three loading point roads as Headshunt (right hand siding), Loading Siding (top siding) and cripple siding (bottom) - see note further down. 1) Signaller has control of the train on the main line, sets the points for the loading point - the ground frame would always be left set for arrivals in to the main road. Normally the ground frame levers have to be set for the headshunt (to allow arrivals/departures) and would be locked in that position. The interlocking with the signalling would probably only allow the signal to be cleared for arrivals if the ground frame was locked. Once the train is in clear of the main line track circuits and the road reset, the shunter would request release of the ground frame from the signaller, which would be a power release in this case. For completeness, he would probably also check as the HAA wagons passed him that the underside doors were shut and the safety catches were on - nothing worse than a full digger bucket drop in at the top, for the weight to push the catch out and fall straight out the bottom!! 2) The shunter, having got the ground frame release is now in control of all movements on sight. We would set the points for the loading siding, visually confirm (probably with a kick of the boot too!) that they have gone across, and then tell the driver to set back slowly. Radios make the movement quicker as he doesn't have to walk up to the loco. There would be a marker board positioned for the driver's sight on the loading siding so that when he got to it he knew the train was positioned against the loading pad. Of course, the pad may be shorter than the train, at which point, once the loading of those wagons is complete the loading staff would tell the shunter, he would then advise the driver to set back again (or pull forward depending on which end of the train was loaded first). 3) Once loading is complete. The shunter would then tell the driver to pull forward back into the headshunt, following which he would reset the road for departure, call the signaller and advise that loading is complete and that the ground frame is reset. The signaller would cancel the power release (of note if the levers in the ground frame were not in the correct place, the interlocking wouldn't allow him to take control back), and then at the appropriate point in time, would set the road and clear the departure signal - only a yellow tho, as the train is setting back so would not go beyond the current block, hence no point in giving a green. 4) The shunter would then confirm the signal has cleared, advise the driver as such and tell him to set back slowly, probably watching the whole train go over the pointwork, on guard against any possible derailments. Once on the main line, the track circuiting would show the signaller when the train was clear of the points, the route would be reset, and the main line signal (giving entry to the loading point) cleared for the main line route and the train would depart. Im not sure how Welsh loading points worked, but I would assume that somewhere on either the loading road or the headshunt there would be a weighbridge - all coals trains have to be weight checked for two reasons, one to ensure they are not overloaded, and secondly because the railway gets paid per tonne of coal moved - so both sides want an accurate figure of how much coal the train carried!! I mention this as a weigh bridge is part of the layout. Now I appreciate that is all way OTT for a layout, but having stepped through the whole procedure, you can see why ground signals un-necessarily complicate things. There will be a location somewhere where ground signals are involved, because for safety of operations it is needed, but I don't think thats the case here. I'm not sure of the reason for the third siding, referred to by me above as the Cripple Siding - with the track layout you have, Cripples couldn't be knocked out, as you cannot get the loco(s) to the other end of the train. If it is intended as a cripple siding, id suggest one running parallel to the loading siding, perhaps capable of holding 4 or 5 wagons. Having said all of that, I now recall you were talking about using a Class 08? It creates an unlikely situation for such a simple location, but its your layout at the end of the day! If you do employ a shunter, I can see the purpose of the third siding! A shunter would be more likely to be used where a train needs to be broken up, such as the washery at Gwaun Came Gurwen, but a loading point such as Tower and Cwmbargoed etc.. would just be a loading siding if the train departed in the same direction it arrived, or a run-round loop if it was departing back in the direction from which it arrived. All of the loading pads, were quick, easy and cheap things - so again keeping things simple reduced costs. Where coal was concerned, the lower the cost of transporting it, the higher the profit. From the railway point of view, the faster to load and unload a train, the more trips they could make in a day - although in reality of course that was all affected by availability of wagons and locos, along with drivers diagrams (they can only work so many hours without a break), pathing and discharge slots at the power station. However, the operational outline above all still holds true with a shunter, except that the human shunter would be giving directions to the '08' driver, and the other loco would stay at the buffer stops on the arrival road. Presumably what I have termed a cripple siding would then be a departure road, in which case the shunter would return the wagons to there, then head back to the loading road, allowing the locomotive to move from the arrival to the departure road, again via the loading road. If thats the case, such movements with two locos on the same siding would be acceptable under shunter control (one person in control, giving clear instructions to both drivers) but would be far more unlikely if there were ground signals. Hope that helps, I've tried to explain the background as to how things happen, so you can see why things are done a set way and hope I haven't confused you! Feel free to use/ignore whatever of it . Apologies its such a long reply - didn't intend it to go on as much! Rich

Hi Kev, Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've always had an interest in electronics, and am hoping to expand my knowledge a little bit to have a go at a few different things over the coming months. But I'm really starting at the bottom with all this, although I understand the principals of resisters, relays, capacitors etc.. But I've been looking at experimenting with PICAXE processors - I note on this project you've used a Microchip PIC processor. Is there any major difference between the two types or is it personal preference? Is one easier to code than the other - I've done Basic, ASP, PHP and a little bit of C programming in the past. Do you find that one type offers more options (i.e. I/o pins, timers, interrupts etc) than the other? Also, I'm looking at creating some circuits (I presume you can get a test/experimental breadboard or something for PIC processors?) and then having some PCBs made (once I've proven the circuit) the software you've mentioned that you use on here, would you recommend that? Fascinated with what you've created with the six character display - really interesting, and thanks for posting all the schematics and background reference. Don't totally understand it all, but its all part of learning, as I want to be able to understand what I'm doing! Cheers Rich

Hi Peter, Firstly, congratulations on passing 200 pages of updates, questions, answers, comments and photos! As others have said superb modelling, and I hope I can get somewhere close later this year In honesty, if I can get to within 50% I'll be happy! Rule #1 applies Andy But I know the feeling, there's a point comes where Rule #1 just doesn't have the realism because you know its wrong ... my new O gauge will be a double-track ECML diversion route, primarily mid-1980s .. but I'm going to stretch the timescales to include the odd Deltic on a London and the odd sectorisation loco , thats all definitely Rule #1!! But part of that comes from the inspiration I get from Llanbourne, whenever I see pictures of Peter's layout - oh to be able to wander down to that station exit for an afternoon with the camera. Love the shot of that Peak arriving on the passenger working, pure nostalgia Now .. where did I put that time machine Rich

Hi Leon, As ever this is one of those questions that depends on how some things work! I'm assuming your planning on using three aspect colour lights - I've drawn the signals on your plan, but there's a couple of assumptions made: a) the area is track circuited, and controlled from either a powerbox or a local signal box has control over the full area. b) that the access into the headshunt and two sidings at the Coal Loading Site are controlled from a ground frame within the terminal, in which case there would be no signals. If they were controlled from the local signalbox/powerbox, then there would need to be ground signals, which I've not shown. c) obviously the white 'feathers' on the top left signal just before the Coal Loading Site branch only light when the route is set into the coal terminal. I've also assumed that there is a length of track between the main line and the headshunt point. If that is just a plain crossover then the signalling will need changing, as the assumption for (b) goes out the window! d) Same goes with the Depot. I've assumed the depot connection to the main is not just a straight two point crossover, but has a length of track (i.e. minimum loco length) between them. If Im right, then the signal is correctly positioned and where GPS is marked can be ignored. If I'm wrong, and it is just a straight two point crossover, then I *believe* but will stand corrected, that the exit signal wouldn't be a three aspect but would instead be a ground position shunt light positioned where the GPS is on the map, and in this case would likely be a yellow version - see further details below. There would also potentially be a STOP board for locos coming off the depot, before the point where I've marked GPS - the board saying 'STOP - Contact signalman before proceeding' or words to that effect. Basically they are calling to ensure there are no movements signalled off the main line into the depot headshunt, and so that the signaller is fully aware of what movements are taking place. Hope that helps and hasn't confused you. Its your layout, so obviously you can signal it how you wish, but that would *I believe* be the right way - I'm no expert, but thats my understanding of things! Rich PS - I'm not sure what your signalling background is, so apologies if I'm telling you something you already know here, but its useful to know the background and differences. With a Three aspect colour light, if the light is red its obviously stop, if yellow, it is informing the driver that the line is totally clear to the next signal, which will either be a red or yellow. With green, the same applies, but that the next signal is a yellow or green. Ground position shunt (GPS) signals are different - they normally show a red light and white light horizontally (like this one) which represents a STOP signal, same as a red aspect. When cleared, they become two white lights at 45 degrees. That is a proceed aspect to the driver, to say you may pass this signal, but the line may not be clear to the next signal or stop board and hence you should be prepared to stop. There is a further version of the GPS signals which has a horizontal yellow and white light, which again gives two white aspects at 45 degrees when cleared. This version when showing yellow and white *COULD* be used where GPS is marked on the depot plan, in which case it would tell drivers, when one yellow and one white (i.e. 'ON') the signal CAN be passed for the purpose of shunt movements into the depot, but to exit on to the main line should be treated as a STOP signal and not passed. When the route is set for the main line, the signal would come 'OFF' in the normal way by displaying two white lights. If your still with me at this point and not totally confused, your probably asking why use that at the exit from the depot headshunt rather than a two or three aspect signal with a feather for the main line? The reason being that movements onto the depot can be undertaken as often as required without interaction from the signaller, with a colour light that has a feather, every move has to be individually signalled, added to which there would then need to be a stop board before actually entering the depot, but we're getting complicated at that point.

No problem mate - I'll sort that out for you over the weekend! Rich

Hi Leon, Only my opinion, but after your yard area and the flexibility you had for running into the yard, through the yard, into the depot, the wagon works etc.. I think you might find the single track a bit restricted in terms of operation. A couple of things to consider: a) I personally think the double track would be the better option, for both looks and operating, but I do like main line layouts so I could be biased! b) I agree with JDW about the facing points usually being avoided, but I there is usually a real life example of everything somewhere, and I don't think there is much you can do about that one. c) I also think the idea of a single track at one end could work, although if your sticking to reality, that would complicate your pointwork somewhat, but its very much your personal preference at the end of the day. Rich

Hi Paul, I'll be interested to see how you get on with this, having heard a lot (more negative than positive in all honesty) about Digitrax Transponding. Im hoping to use it on my freight wagon sets, so that TrainController can accurately know the length of the trains heading into the fiddle yard, but have yet to actually do anything with it! I struggle to get on with the Blogs on here, but I'm trying to follow along! Rich

Hi Leon, Yes agree with your sentiment totally - looking forward to seeing what you come up with next. You have inspired my new O gauge layout with the old South Wales Freight however! Leon, The switching options that Peter suggests work well - depending on the road you want to go down, you can always use servo's and microswitches remember, which are a lot cheaper - perhaps a little more involved in wiring up but nothing too complex. Just thought I'd point that one out (excuse the pun!) as its easier for somebody to say at this stage than when you've got the track work down. If you do look at servo's let me know and I can let you tell you about the servo/microswitch MDF holder I've designed if its of use to you. Oh no, it really is Tinsley all over again!!! . Well done on the clearing, although a sad sight indeed..... Rich

Hi Andy, Looking good! I like the controller holder that you have for the Gaugemaster - I'm sure I've seen some laser cut MDF versions for the Digitrax handsets that I use somewhere, but can I find them again .. can I .....hmm lol Still I'll keep looking. Enjoying what your doing with Kingsley Road - I'm going to have to create you a new totem for it! I do love the 'Change for Much Dithering' sub-name lol! Reflects many of us that one! Oh and well done on the lead! What a saving ... your not able to predict lottery numbers as well are you?? Keep plodding on mate. Rich

Hi Leon, No, no, no, no, no, no was my initial response! Lol! Very sorry to see this go, it was inspirational to me, full of operational possibilities and good realistic scenery, plus it was a steelworks, which always wins in my book! However, as you say if your not happy, and it's not giving you the interest, then a change is probably the best move. Shall look forward to seeing what you do, but don't remind us too much of how Tinsley Yard looked in its derelict days!!! Keep posting mate. Rich

Sssh don't say that - I've got about 8 in that case!!! Rich

Thanks Rod! Hmm, a mid-summer garage clearance afternoon and BBQ - sounds like a good plan! Just for reference for people, over in the Scenery, Structures and Transport forum, I've created a new 'Modelling Inspirations' thread. Im working on a new website that will be just that - Modelling Inspirations, with the aim of providing a photographic reference for the railway, scenery, buildings etc.. something that can be built over time, and give people points of reference or inspiration for creating layouts, buildings or scenes. To start this off, I've posted a few bits tonight ... and will follow up with more over the coming weeks. Hope people may find it useful and contribute themselves. Rich

Cheers Paul, don't get too jealous got to build it first! That 37 of yours looks the business! That's very kind of you Jon - not sure I'd say swimming well more a case of doggy paddles with much spluttering and water intake I think!! I'll reserve judgment until I'm further on. I agree totally on the garage clearance too much junk! Good thing is that a lot can simply be moved from garage to car boot to rubbish tip! But it's going to take a while. My aim that I'm clinging to is to have the garage emptied and down by late summer, so I can get some one in to lay a concrete pad and get four sides and a roof built before the cold weather sets in. That's the aspiration. Thanks Simon always useful advice and much appreciated. Rich

Looking good Paul ... not that those centre-headcode 37s are making me jealous at all hehe ... hope you hadn't copyrighted that statement lol Cant wait to see the outcome! Rich

Evening all, Well its been a few weeks since I last updated the thread, or indeed, did any modelling Unfortunately one bug or illness (very unlike me) after another seems to have pulled me down and April was just a blur one way or another. Im still not 100% but feel up to doing some modelling. This post therefore is a general update on a couple of things, then today's work! Industrial Diesel CAD design This one has generated a bit of interest, to my surprise. A few people have messaged or emailed me to ask what it is and how its going. Well I didn't want to say too much until we actually got to measure the thing, but thanks to a huge amount of help and kindness from a couple of friends in GBRailfreight, and the support of the Traffic Department at British Steel, myself and a mate had a few hours measuring up and taking endless detail photographs of one of the GBRf ex-Norweign imported Di8 locomotives at Scunthorpe Works a couple of weeks back. For those of you who may not know what I'm talking about, its one of these (thanks to another friend for allowing me to post the image below, which has been cleared by British Steel for release) We had a great couple of hours, measuring and photographing 8716 - the locos are actually 2,300hp 75mph main line European diesels, but they potter around the Scunthorpe site at 10mph acting as shunters. There really is just something about them that makes me want to model one, but they have a very complicated front end and a huge amount of equipment under the running plate, around the bogies. We came back with over 150 measurements, and around 400 photographs, which I'm gradually naming and working through. The plan is to create a detailed 7mm scale CAD drawing of the loco, which can then be produced as a brass kit. It will take time, and its one of those jobs to be done on a rainy day. But to Joe and Bob at GBRf, and Richard at British Steel, I am immensely grateful. ​The 'BIG' Project Some of you may recall way back on this thread I had plans to create a 1980s layout. Everything was progressing well with clearing the loft out in preparation, the track plan was worked out and had been passed over my 'signalling authority' (alias JonF) to confirm the signalling would work. Then the whole thing went on hold with the prospect of a house move on the horizon. Well I'm glad to say, that the house move is off, but its now been confirmed that the garage, which is beyond its useful life (even though its rather full of junk at the moment) is to be demolished and replaced by a new structure, for which the overriding authorities have given permission for it to become a dedicated O gauge room! Yay! So instead of a 20'x11' layout in the loft, it will be a little further delayed, but become a 30'x12' layout in the garage. Ive started reading up on the various rmWeb threads related to these things, to ensure that its insulated and built in such a way that it can be used in a high summer and mid-winter! The downside is that having cleared the loft, I now have to clear the bl**dy garage in order to demolish it, not to mention a further delay in actually getting on with the layout, but the end result will be worth it. Now .... Today's work However, I've had a day off today, and decided to make the effort and do a bit more on the ES1 kit. You may recall, I'd got the core chassis soldered together, and in the process discovered that the iron wasn't hot enough, the flux was too corrosive and the solder was the wrong type! In addition, I'd soldered the side frames inside out and hadn't pushed the rivets out ... oh dear! So today was a new start, new modern Weller iron, the correct solder, JonF's recommended flux and some metal bits in a holder to clean the tip of the iron. I got the chassis out of the box and as several people on here predicted it was somewhat green thanks to the other flux, so out with the iron unsoldered everything and back to basics, then the CIF and an old toothbrush came out, for a good clean up and remove all the old flux. Good start. Have to say the new solder, flux and iron are wonderful - still getting to grips with how to solder properly, but when it does go right, it really is easy, and while a few less than public words have been muttered at times, it has come together. As a result, my soldering isn't the neatest, but its better than the first time I soldered a wire to track, so I guess I'm making progress. The new iron gets a lot hotter, as evidence by the burn I sustained while holding the frame plate for the first time! Note, I said first time .. it wasn't done again!! . Have pushed the rivets out with a bradall and toffee hammer, which seems to have worked well. Having not done brass rivets before, I'm not really sure how pronounced they are suppose to be, but they are visible. So with everything now resoldered, I'm back where I started in essence, but with a very flat flame - taking it apart and putting back together seems to have cured the slight rock that I had when on a piece of glass, so thats an added benefit. So that is moving forward steadily, I might be able to do a little more tomorrow, but slowly but surely is the way. Hope you've enjoyed this update - sorry for the radio silence in recent weeks, hopefully things will get back to normal and move forward a bit more now. If you've stuck it out and are still here at this point, thanks for reading!! Rich

Oh now you've done it! I thought Dutch for the wagons was too late for my 1981(ish) to 1988 (ish) O Gauge layout in the planning, but 1984 puts it smack in the middle!!! More expense hehe. Actually, thanks for that Peter as I didn't realise it was that earlier, so thats opened the doors to a couple of things! A Dutch 31 might even have to creep in on the odd appearance lol. Ooh what an image, I thought it was my home depot of Frodingham to start with, but I think that shot is taken at Tinsley?? Cant think of an open day, given the people walking about in the background, at Frod! Oh what memories Rich

Hi Andy, Looking good Glad to see your working with what works for you, and that 37 and Peak are superb!!! Rich

Hi Peter, As you say seems to have been better, although Sod's law I never had a problem with foam!! Nice shot of the peak - you'll be giving Dave over on Waverley West more ideas! Must admit I didn't realise that Dutch livery in person wagons and Peaks overlapped... Rich

Hi Rod, Sorry to hear the health hasn't been good, but delighted to hear the cancer is in remission and the slipped disc is improving. The work with those Dingham couplings looks great. Shall be using the same coupling on my stock so your details of how you've fitted them to the Heljan's is really useful! I'm told the Easybuikd kits are good to construct (not just the bogies!!) so I can see me having a go at one or two of their DMUs once I've finished the current kit. Always look forward to the WKT updates, you've done really well with the layout so far! Rich

Hi Simon, I've never had a problem with this kind of thing, having had an iPhone since version2 and and iPad since the iPad2 .. and an iMac since, well you get the idea!! I was talking to an Apple Guru about 12 months back in an Apple Store about why people have problems with images coming out upside down on the web, and the explained how I did it, and he turned round and said ah - well your doing it right and helping the device to know what its doing! Whether I am or not is another matter tho! Basically, whatever app or screen your in on the device, if you slide one figure from 'off the screen' onto the screen up to the half way ash point, you'll get the control panel slide up from the bottom - on there the right hand icon on the top row of circular icons is a padlock with a circle round it ... that locks the orientation. On an iPhone I think it locks it into Portrait mode, but on an iPad it locks it to what ever orientation your in when you tap it ... for reference, doing the same again simply unlocks it. Once its locked, then go and take the photograph. Thats what I do, and have never had a problem with a picture being upside down! All I ask is don't shoot the messenger if it don't work! Oh and if Apple do pay you millions for your insight ... let me know, I've a couple of comments/suggestions/ideas I could pass onto Mr Cook if he's dishing out green bucks Rich

Jeff, Can only echo what has been said here! Wonderful work, wonderful effect, wonderful to look at! Just don't go walling yourself off from everything Sorry couldn't resist! Really does look fantastic tho. Realism is 100%. Craftsmanship and Like buttons really are not enough! Rich

Hi Peter, Nice to see there's a plan .. and with a split-headcode 37, a 7mm version of Llanbourne is still doable ... that Scottish 26 thing could be on running in trials from Crewe! Hehe xx. I've saved and got a Peak ... unfortunately its arrived damaged and unusable as a result of some twit tightening the retaining screws, which Heljan now use, so hard I cannot even undo one of them them with a power drill! The result is that the screws have broken through the block of MDF wood that the loco secured to for transit, and the model has been sliding about in the post . Still in a good condition, it would be superb model! Do admire what your doing with the OO though, have done ever since I first came across the thread! Rich