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Reading the above posts it reads like... People demand top quality detailed models, but they can't afford the price after £130+. The demand seems to be there, but only for new toolings, after that it's a slow burn trickle. The stated new competition is individual retailers releases, these are large batch feast/famine models (12 variants then none). Hornby isn't catering to this market, so the fact they aren't competing to tool up a model and supply 3000-5000 models to one retailer in one go is their choice, they can't blame the market if they aren't in the race. At the same time, they aren't playing their own game in the same way either, they seem to make 1-3 variants, then pause, then some more etc etc, it doesn't sell out and it doesn't become rare*. Instead it gets dumped making it even harder to sell the next batch. Imho it's Hornby that needs to adapt, they can't expect the competition to play it Hornby's way. They don't need a catalog of 80+ different locos every year, small batches of just about everything. Similarly trying to flog dead horses isn't a good industry either, I really don't get upgrading the railroad B17 at all, it competes with their own super detailed model, which is being dumped below the rrp of the railroad one ! Similarly why Railroad is being bespoke loco Drive upgraded too has limited sense... the market is for kids and I don't think they care how it's motored.. a new one size fits all tenders worked in the past and could have saved Hornby a small fortune in the future..., and the important capex spending too. What made Railroad work in the 70/80s was due to it being models for kids, or slightly older ones who saw or recently remembered the big ones. In 2017 that's preserved steam, and EMUs, apart from Scotsman and Mallard I can't remember the last preserved loco in the Railroad range, as for anything modern... I'm glad to see the Q1 with rails as a limited release alongside the main range (and it's 50% sold in a weekend), more of this, on more existing tools, is much more efficient, more focused and caters to what modellers want.. it needs no capex, serves the larger retailers and takes on the competition.. 2018 is year of 1968 (everyone likes black 5's). I like shiny new tender engines as much as the next man, but when they all end in the discount bucket after 1 release (K1, Stanier Mogul etc), and the competition is nibbling on small tank engines below £100, then maybe Hornby should sweat its larger tender engine assets more with limited releases of specific numbers for individuals retailers, and focus investment on the same smaller tank engines (Fowler, Stanier 2-6-2t, tilbury tank etc all await), and more affordable EMUs at lesser detail for those keen, younger but less well off. * (peckett excepted as this is a new market).

One for the kiwi's to model.. http://www.nzrsr.co.nz/images/big_1355.jpg

I know of 4 liveries it's carried, the blue BCGB is correct for preservation (today) and historical. (I'm sure I've seen an old b+w of it like this). It was also NWGB (green with red lining in preservation), how correct this was in service I'm not sure, but it was green without lining.. http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/36/AB_1927.jpg I recall it having a huge unpainted Andrew Barclays works plate declaring its works number as 1927 built in 1927.

With retailers going for the sub £100 tank engine market, the limited value in the black goods engine market and not much left in the large tender engine market, even "modern" image diesels are done... Maybe Hornby should focus on affordable, but not overly detailed, models in todays EMU centric world... Hornby have shown themselves capable of a Mk1 FO/BSO for £40, if they can put a railroad motor in it you could have a 4 car EMU for £200 ( £160 after discounting), with TTS for £240 (£190 after discounting).

Sure" Sure I'll have to dig thru, though my recollections of seeing them(and it) was that it was filthy and knackered ! At bury it was soon painted, and the other pictures I've got are running round the lines of the museum yard, when their used to be next to nothing in it except a semaphore signal. Then finally my own later days pictures are in the 1980's at the aforementioned ELR early "works" trains up the line. A lot of my childhood associated to this engine, as my father spent many weeks at the museum in its early days.

This one is preserved at the East Lancashire Railway, and was one of their very first locomotives. My late father had a bunch of pictures, which I now have, of this locomotive, right up to and including its early preservation days. It was this livery at the works, shunting 16t minerals until it reached bury (and preservation) when it was painted Green with NWGB letters and No1 on the side. He was a stalwart behind this Loco, indeed he saw it as the locomotive that did most of the ELR's firsts... first one out of the Museum onto the former BR lines, first steam to Summerseat, first to Ramsbottom and even first to Rawtenstall (I journey I was on the footplate as a kid/ unofficial passenger). Since it's Ticket expired, it's been returned to this livery and is displayed at the Bury Transport Museum, its home of 45 years ! I (and he would have)/am been massively happy to see this produced ! I sense a few different Barclays will find a home with me, this has to be one of the most desired industrials !

Hmm, So what we know so far... It's more than 1 model, it's of a class more than one, one of them has strong hints of SECR compatibility. That narrows it down a bit. Loco 1: Must be 36001 Leader, and 1 complete and 2 halves were built, and could be painted in modern liveries as a departmental loco too.. (those diesel guys won't notice the difference), it's clearly a Southern loco, and most likely worked with withdrawn SECR stock for testing. Loco 2: as the first one was a steam loco pretending to be diesel, it goes the second one must be a diesel pretending to be a steam loco, similarly, as it was a big inefficient steam loco designed for doing little jobs, this must be a little diesel built to do jobs oversized for it... it's Claytons DHP 1 Am I close ?

It will be this... Cecil Pagets prize.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Railway_Paget_locomotive

Latest Bachmann times says the 24/1 was progressed to the drawing office

Looks like this to me... http://steverabone.com/sscalewebsite/buildi24.jpg

Based on absolutely no science, fact or even trackside rumour, not even conjecture, gossip or scriptures.. I am 100% convinced it won't be either a class 124 trans-penine or an L&Y dreadnought 4-6-0.

http://www.hattons.co.uk/NewsDetail.aspx?id=140 2 days 23 hours and 57 mins.. (did I really spot it after just 2 minutes ?) Queue speculation...

Did I just read a suggestion Drax does a tax write off solely to give a discount to railway modellers ? Rails of Sheffield has a coach for £125 Kernow has 4 coaches for £290 (£72.50 Ea) £83 for a wagon is starting to look reasonable.

What have the last few posts about the County got to do with the GWR 14xx? I love how quickly and easily people get off topic.* * paying homage to this post, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117156-national-collection-in-miniature-dean-goods-class-no-2516/?p=2842392 :-)

See this post...http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107050-draxhornby-biomass-wagons/?p=2165199 Hornby don't own the tooling. My guess if they don't sell, Drax will have a second round of giving them to customers. I'd imagine if the paint scheme changes, another run may be forthcoming, probably in similar conditions. You could of course wait until inflation catches up, Brexit day is in 2019 so not too long to wait :-) Hattons are no stranger for waiting long term to sell an item out, these curved track were in the range for over 38 years after Binns Rd closed, and were still available in 2016 !.. £2 is a lot for an old piece of 70's steel rail.. even today, but they eventually cleared out :-) http://www.hattons.co.uk/26992/Hornby_Dublo_2721HD_Curved_terminal_track_2nd_radius/StockDetail.aspx

Do you have any pictures ? I've got to be honest in my time I've seen dozens of these ivatts, but haven't known them for corrosion. I have seen them with split axles or broken valve gear In general I've found these tanks to be good, others obviously could have different experiences. It's usually the v1/v3 with split axles and valve gear issues (usually the pin breaking off the chassis making the gear try to float) I've seen more often with problems.

Hmm, If I read correctly, they are saying last years numbers were better because they were dumping stock, this years numbers were lower because they've less stock to sell. It might get better because they are getting new stock but it's most likely the new stock won't make the numbers up. Hornby owns a huge amount of land in this market. But they are trying to farm it all, at once, every year, when really they need to go aggressive hunting. Imho they need to start aggressively exploit targeted land, then afterwards move on to the next field and leave the other to fallow and recover. (Slash & burn, not grow potatoes, carrots, onions and on and on). This is what the other players in the industry are doing, including some of the other big boys. We already know last years range was reduced in scope due to market and economic cost conditions, yet it's still massive, but lots of 1 number 1 variants. I'm not sure I agree independents are eating the market, there's really only two new entrants in the mass market, one of which has only got 1 engine on the shelves in the mass market, the other only has 2.. and of those 2 only 1 of them has barely been released. Granted 2 are new versions of old Hornby tools, but it would hardly be argued they were Hornby best sellers. It was also Hornbys own choice to go head to head on duplicating two models (again one of which was a limited availability). The indys are mostly serving a 1 bespoke tool for 1 specific retail outlet market, albeit quite successfully (Rapido -apt for locomotion, djm 14xx for Hattons etc), but it's a market Hornby is not playing in, they can't complain if they aren't in that race. It wouldn't be wise to set the stage to shrink again in 2018, as that's a downward spiral, they need to adapt. Imho, Hornby's legacy range of tools is too big. The market is too small for going head to head on duplication. Making 1 number/livery of 50 legacy tools, and one or two new ones every year isn't cost effective, nor is it market appealing on a grand scale. If independants think they can take on a Hornby tool, but if it's not a mass seller, let them, if it makes economic sense to compete at railroad level, go for it. But otherwise they are better focused on their strength/future than defending weak older tools. (Personally I'd have eaten the loss of the radial and focussed on something else, but I'd have stuck with the 71 but produced 10 (or as what makes sense) variants at once..but then remove fully from the catalog by now)...instead we've got lingering damp 7 versions over three years all discounted and who knows more in 2018, the only rare one.. is the exclusive limited edition, but why only 1 exclusive edition - afterall DJ had 7, Hornby could have killed this off (sorry Dave). Ironically, it's the DJ one that poses the longer term threat, and has a perceived rarity value too ! Imho Hornby lost the radial to Oxford on day 1, having been beaten on price and wide variation.. Oxford quite definitely hunted this market. Instead imho they would do better to focus on their manufacturing strengths, product range to appeal to the same customers of the independents. Bachmann are doing very well with limited editions of existing tools supplied to specific retailers, and note they are being very careful in what they run.. lots of mass appeal models (47's mostly) but others. They (and for that matter Heljan too) are not also averse to being an OEM for a retailer exclusive, taking on indy's. Perhaps what Hornby could do is select a tool, and approach various shops with options of add-ons, alternate numbers of different liveries to planned runs. If Hornby approached 6 shops with six different exclusive different works numbers of the Peckett std livery in small exclusive runs it would cause panic in the hobby for demand right now and Hornby would find their arm bitten off...and they still sell the main range versions announced in the same livery. if they do a 1968 theme black 5 (2018 is 50 years) they could offer 6-7 limited production runs of different 1968 fives, to different exclusive shops, and still offer some main range ones. Whilst Hornby have done 44871/781 there's oodles more they could do..44806/45110/34/212/31/90/305/18/388/407/444 all of which were moderate celebrities in August 1968. Having a dozen 1968 Black fives at runs of 250 stands a better chance of clearing warehouse at Hornby than 1 number of 3000. Following this they then agree to rest the Black five for a few years, in 2019 pick another legacy tool to repeat the exercise in 2019... It's this approach that the Indys are taking with their tools.. 10x J94's, 10x 14xx liveries etc. Imho Hornby need to create a bit of feast or famine when it comes to availability, but they do need to be selective (the Peckett is one case where they own the entire pure industrial market right now, and feast/famine applies to the whole market on a per livery basis in this instance), and I believe their approach currently is correct, the sell out nature shows this, but if others enter down the road, this approach should change too. As a customer I'm sat waiting patiently with my wallet for another two Merchant Navies to be announced, Hornby has sunk six figures into this tool and produced 4 variants... they have a huge cost.. I have spare cash.. where is the other 10 variants (inc limited quantity exclusives ) they could have produced in 2017, stolen the market and cleared my wallet and be sitting in Hornbys accounts for a rosier future ? Instead I'm prepaying Bulleid diesels whilst I wait. More efficient manufacturing, less wide range, but focussed to specific retailers whom get to cherry pick some "good numbers" whilst still serving the wider market with a generic. Hornby's range is vast, but doing all toolings every year isn't effective, nor does it give any rarity value as it's never "gone from the range". Offering some limited numbers in addition to standard range numbers also gives the retailers willing to take a risk, an advantage in not seeing 200 other retailers all dumping stock of the same number, agreeing to move on to a different tool and giving the other a rest creates rarity and certainty. Hornby gets more revenue from existing toolset without needing ever increasing capex every year.

Ships are about prestige overseas. We aren't empiracal any more. There's no need for a mass navy beyond basics. War today is about IT, small technology groups. North Korea isn't coming our way by sea, neither will we ever be taking North Korean territory. However North Korean hackers could shut down all aspects of our lives from anywhere. Additionally our world is now managed by £200mn IT data centres scattered around the country, a few small teams with an RPG could take out the hardware that wasn't affected by a software hack very easily. Then we are back to sticks and stones to fight with, as the computer won't say "no", it won't be able to say anything. For some reason, even with the NHS hack, our government still hasn't got any tools to defend data centres controlling billions of dollars of business and indeed our lives, nor any tools to really stop a government sponsored hack that really could shut us down. Your iPad relies on vast rooms of thousands of servers to give you that web page.. hack an iPad... there billions more to go. Destroy a data centre millions of users are offline... destroy the DR site for that data centre,, those millions are offline permanently... the only security they have today is a Minimum wage security guard and his signing in book. What good is 13 frigates, or 1300 if the navies data centre was taken out by a UPS truck delivering a 50kg-100kg IBM server in a box from China that turned out to be something more sinister ? People believe IT is secur, but the hardware is just as vulnerable (and more densely concentrated) than as the software... eggs.. 1 basket comes to mind, yet were more focussed on the infection of those eggs (even then we don't have an answer to it)... building a ship certainly won't contain the threat. No one cares about these places security, beyond basic theft protection, yet our lives depend on them. Naval logistics... ships like planes can be hired.

Something to go with last years exhibition coach. Although I got one, I was never quite sure what I could do with it, now you can put it with a vga and leave them both in a siding for a year and await a third to add and maybe figure it out.

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Thanks I was trying :-) Unfortunately I doubt this will be the last time a thread drifts off topic. Indeed if it were, forums worldwide would cease to exist through staleness and dull content. I for one am not over inspired by Deans goods class, but the last dozen posts have been the most interesting to read in this topic, at least since the knives were withdrawn over the quality /accuracy of the samples.

The location of both the models promoter and the prototype LNER locos being discussed have a lot in common :-)

I don't think making wooden coaches was the LNERs problem, after all they owned two sources of teak plantations in Burma, which British Railways inherited in 1948. The NER had plans for electrification, and built EE1 in 1921 for the purpose of York -Newcastle and maybe Edinburgh services, in this instance it would appear Gresley took the easy route and stuck with steam, but that EE1 survived 29years unused until 1950, but not as a preserved loco, suggests some people thought it's future potential was greater.