30851

This is the picture by David Holmes showing one alongside the platform at East Leake station. Rob

I have found the other picture - from Station Master's reflections by David Holmes. Picture of 73010 5.59PM 29/6/62 at East Leake on a "Darnall-Ruislip special" running as a class 8 (assuming this http://www.wheeltappersdccsounds.co.uk/page72/index.html is correct). Note it has a match wagon and brake van on the front. Rob

I have seen at least two pictures of A60/A62 stock being hauled along the GC to Neasden. The one I can find easily (Steam Memories: 1950's and 1960's Great Central Lines) shows B16/3 61463 hauling a set past Bagthorpe Junction. Date sometime around July 61. I would have to hunt harder to find the other picture. I have it one of my books - somewhere. Rob

Bringing an old question back from the dead! Signal Box Org has posted a diagram which I think it is what Robert was looking for - https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php?id= 1447 along with some questions/answers https://signalbox.org/the-blower/topic/blackpool-south/ Rob

Mention of the LNWR reminded me that I have a copy of "Track Diagrams of the LNWR and its successors - Section 5 Northamptonshire" by R Foster and M Instone. This shows the different layouts in that area from the 1870's up to 1980. I have never seen any reference to any other volume in this series so no clue if Section 1 to 4 ever existed. Rob

I think these are trains leaving Waterloo - if so then I see the following B9 = Waterloo and Southhampton Eastern Docks (boat train). B6 = Waterloo and Clapham Junction (ECS) Rob

Yes they did - but at night. I found this note about the last night of the through trains ( from https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/41981679972 ). "After 44984 came off at Leicester D6800 took the train to Sheffield, unfortunately I don't know the identity of the EM1 or the 25 that worked forward from there. The train was 25 minutes late into Leicester so you may have seen the 2225 Swindon-York if it was running to time which arrived behind D7012 & was taken forward by 44984." I have also seen other references to them being the regular loco's on these night trains. Rob

There were diesels on the GC extension up to 1966. On the night trains you could regularly see class 24, 27, 30/31, 35, 37, 40 and 47. At least some of the Sheffield - Nottingham locals were diesel hauled before their end by 31, 37 and 47's from Tinsley. The most well-known diesel train was the York - Poole/Bournemouth which also had 31,37 and 47 - unless you are talking about 60/61 winter when it was a DMU to Banbury! After 1966 I have seen pictures of classes 20, 25, 44 and 45 north of Nottingham. Rob

I have the March 63 Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment - only such thing that I do have! Didn't know they existed when I found it for sale.

Does the U.S.A shunter, DS234 (ex 30062), at Meldon Quarry count in this discussion of the last WR allocated steam. All sources I can find says it lasted in service until Aug 66 when it finally failed. Supposed to have been replaced by 30064 but seems that didn't happen. Rob

Well, I will give it a go! Assuming I have the correct 9F infamous run (and the details I have are correct) then the train involved was the Heart of Midlothian. This train was one of the ones created for the Festival of Britain and from the start consisted of MK 1 coaches. By the time of the 9F run the restaurant vehicles were most likely replaced with standard Gresley restaurant coaches. So, I don't believe the 9F was pulling any Coronation coaches. Now we wait for someone to post pictures of that particular train to prove me wrong! Rob

This question came up recently - the 'Yes it did' answer (with types and numbers) can be found on this page - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/173325-lner-coronation-stock/?do=findComment&comment=5028622 Rob

This book https://www.abebooks.co.uk/first-edition/DISTRICT-CONTROLLERS-VIEW-No.12-Midland-Great/22486819078/bd has a picture of a Chesterfield to Yarmouth Beach train with at least two GW coaches in it. Taken 7th August 1954 at Bourne they say those coaches had worked to Chesterfield the week before from Weston Super Mare to Sheffield on another holiday train and taken a day trip out. I am not good at recognizing GW coaches but they look like 1920's Collett type. You should also remember that in the 1950's there were lots of trains for the army moving around - they could contain anything old from any region. The other book to look for is https://www.bottbooks.com/product/38368/OPERATION-NORFOLK which will show you the formations of M&GN trains in the 1950's (mostly Gresley coaches by the way). However if the M&GN had survived then it would have definity changed by 1962 - it would have been DMU's by then. The standard story is that Craven's DMUs were ordered for the M&GN but were diverted to Kings Cross instead because of the planned closures. Others says this is just not true - I have no clue if it is true or not but the story has been around for a long time. Rob

And even when you find a book on the topic that is supposed to be in laymen's terms https://www.amazon.com/Naval-Firepower-Battleship-Gunnery-Dreadnought-ebook/dp/B00KTI0T0E/ref=sr_1_24?crid=39R0EBLGK976G&keywords=norman+friedman&qid=1675622444&s=books&sprefix=norman+fre%2Cstripbooks%2C637&sr=1-24 by an author you normally understand (Norman Friedman) then this stuff still leaves me scratching my head! Rob

It could well be Fiennes - and he should know all about should know all about that being the person behind the plan to completely rebuild the Colwick yards with a grandiose yard that would have been dead within 10 years. Don't think he mentions that in his book! The plan I would like to learn more about is the Southern Region plan to build a yard at Yeovil. The idea didn't last long - under question by 1957 it seems. and soon gone. If built it could have taken the title of shortest life. Rob

It is certainly true that the different parts of the Modernisation Plan were not coordinated. Seems the different teams were setup, given some brief guidance (* -see below) and sent on their way. There wasn't enough time before the report was published to look at all the bits together to see if it all made sense - the Indvidual team's suggestions were just combined and published. One example of this uncoordinated approach was the new Carlise yard - made sense for the LM point of view from how things worked before but was far too big when you looked at what ScR were doing with their new yards. (*) Not sure where I read this all now but the one bit of guidance that was given out was that electrification was to take place on all the main lines. So, the team looking at diesels were to think of what to do for minor lines, hence the focus on Type 1 and Type 2 loco's in the Pilot Scheme. With the guidance given they, at first, didn't think there would be a need for a Type 4 etc. It was only when the electrification team worked out how little they could get done by 1970 that the need for Type 4's was considered. The lack of time before the report publication for developing the Type 4 lead to the heavy 40, 44 because they just copied the prototypes instead of more thinking. Rob

There were various estimates in 1954/55 of how many loco's needed to replace steam (1,200 of them) on the WCML. One plan said it would take 930 diesels. Another for DC electrification said 570. For AC the suggestion said 150 passenger and 510 mixed traffic. Note - no mention of how many DMU/EMU required. An example of another scheme - the SR thought they would need 100 of the heaviest diesels to replace 129 steam engines on the Waterloo - Bournemouth/Exeter routes. The real scary numbers are from the excellent Johnson/Long book British Railways Engineering. In the section on workshops they talk of the following 1954 planned totals for 1990 (after the end of steam) 3,900 Electric Loco's 5,300 Diesel Loco's 2,100 Shunters 13,000 EMU/DMU vehicles. So some weren't thinking much improvement in utilization! Note - these numbers are after the completion of fitting of all wagons with fitted brakes which was planned to reduce the total number of engines by around 2,000. I wonder when they started to think of higher productivity? Rob

These sort of storms happens every 10 years or so here - but people forget. According to the news we have had 34 inches of rain since Boxing Day but the maximum recorded for Ben Lomond is 120 inches back in 82. Just to describe how bad it can rain in California in railroad terms - in 1932, during a storm in Tehachapi, the Santa Fe loco #3834 (a large loco - https://www.kansasmemory.org/item/221153 ) was swept away and completly buried in the mud. It took them a few weeks to actually find it again and another month to get it out. Rob

If you want to escape the rain you could do what I did and move to California. Won't see so much rain here will I - ha! Rob

Reminds me of how they filmed the Live and Let Die crocodile escape scene - it was done for real by the owner of the Crocodile farm. What is more he didn't get it right first time or second or.... see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDeUzB12ln8 for all his attempts. Rob

Not just Southern - I have John's West Midlands map for the same time period. I am not sure where I bought them from but it may have been Foyles in London back in the early 80's. Also not sure if there were other of these maps on sale but there certainly wasn't an East Midlands or Manchester one as I would have bought that! Only ever saw them that once for sale and didn't come across anything similar until the well know Quail maps appeared. Edit to add - Glad you found my answer useful! Rob

Maybe Quail Maps can help you. I have a copy of their BR Soutern Country Track Map published in 1981 which has the 1978 Fratton track diagram (including the sidings). I will admit it is small - it is 10cm wide for Portsmouth to Fratton. Rob

I worked on the S&T at the GC when they were trying to keep the telegraph poles. It was never ending task of trying to replace broken wires and rotten poles - nothing else got done. What was especially bad for me was that as the smallest and lightest on the team I got to climb the very rotten poles to disconnect the wires. I now think there was a lot of stupidity on my part for being involved in that. Don't believe what the doctors say - being about the correct weight can still be a health hazard! Rob

According to Chapter 9 of the book "'The Western's Hydraulics' by J. K. Lewis " (not a book I am going to doubt!) the Westerns on the Birmingham worked on complex diagrams starting on a Plymouth to London run, then an express to Wolverhampton. The would be serviced at Oxley or Tyseley after which they worked some local work around Birmingham or night parcels run to, say, Swindon and back. After that they would work back to London and then back to Plymouth. So the engine from the 1M09 would likely be heading down to Plymouth next. With all that going on I would say you need to find the loco diagrams to answer the question. Rob

The 1936 and 1967 diagrams do show the same area so show the decline of Victoria station. First to go were the cross overs in the bay - don't know when that happened. Then sometime in 64/65 the connection from the down main to platform 11 and 12 was removed (along with platform 12). This would be after the removal of the local services on the GC in 1963. The last set of changes before complete closure were the removal of the down slow, loop and goods next to platform 1. This was done just before closure and was to allow the construction of road access (using the road that went down the dock opposite platform 1) to the track bed in preparation of demolition on closure (they were eager to start demolition). As for what levers 25 and 26 did in 1936 - they controlled the points between the middle siding and down main (platform 4) as per the diagram. This connection wasn't there when Victoria was built and 25/26 did control the points in the docks. No clue when this change was made or why they decided the re-use 25/26 when there were other spare levers. I assume this connection was put in as the original layout would mean everything was blocked if something needed to go from platform 4 to the up. I notice they never out a FP lock on that connection so all those Skegness trains that reversed in platform 4 must have required the points being clipped (or whatever the correct words are for that). As for the double slip and trap there are some very clear pictures of this in Steam Memories: 1950's & 1960's Great Central Lines. The double slip is hand operated with 4 levers. The trap point - it is certainly different and not something you will ever get RTR! The traps are between the crossing and the toe of the seeming hand worked point next to the traps. Rob