ruggedpeak

Juvenile triffids on the move? 😲

The High Court judgement and associated papers make very clear, that enhanced stewardship had been tried and demonstrably failed on the Jacobite. The risk has been looked at repeatedly by people qualified to do so and the decision is clear to those professionals. The evidence of injury and fatality due to lack of CDL is clear and deemed unacceptable, and the ORR's decisions have been judged by a High Court Judge at Judicial Review as rational, evidenced and lawful. And yet some think that this is irrelevant and the delusions of 'common sense' and 'pragmatism' are more applicable. EDIT - I would strongly suggest reading the High Court Judgement before commenting, it is very informative and clear. Here's a flavour, this from the Judge's response to the accusation that ORR were acting irrationally (para. 94): By reason of the factual analysis set out above addressing the proportionality of the ORR’s decision the Court is not persuaded that the ORR’s decision can be said to be, in any way, irrational. There is a legislative prohibition on hinged doors operating without central door locking. The specialist safety regulator was not satisfied that the Claimant had demonstrated its method of operations provided an equivalent level of safety. There is an evidential basis for the ORR’s concerns, not least because there have been several safety incidents on the Claimant’s trains. https://assets.caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/admin/2023/3338/ewhc_admin_2023_3338.pdf

Complete myth? A quick google of "no win no fee solicitor" will show that it is alive and well. Plenty of similar firms in business like National Accident Helpline First4lawyers Beenletdown.co.uk Injurylawyers4u National Accident Law etc etc This is in addition to law firms large and small across the UK offering the same services. One high profile firm went bust because it was badly managed. The market for personal injury claims in the UK is huge and very lucrative. There are 600,000 claims pa in the UK just for whiplash from road traffic collisions. So many that the insurance industry set up a process that avoided needing lawyers to reduce their costs.

The warning about hot water has nothing to do with the nanny state and everything to do with the idioitc and destructive cancer that is the legal profession. Nowhere to my knowledge is there a risk assessment for a cup of coffee that says you have to print that on a cup. If there was every office building in the country would need a clear out of the mugs in the kitchens as they don't have it printed on. The wording is on there to provide some degree of civil litigation cover when some muppet spills hot coffee on themselves and then decides to sue. It has nothing to do with HASAWA or the nanny state and everything to do with lawyers and their clients abusing the system.

Definitely agree, and worthy of a separate thread for discussion as there are large railway exhibitions in Europe. Javascript blocker, cough.......😉 Cheerily headlined "‘Death of the model railway’ as ageing enthusiasts run out of steam" it says that the Warley team are getting too old to run it and there are no youngsters to take over. "Club officials said the organisers and volunteers who had run the show were simply getting too old for the job." There is also quite a bit about Hattons closure.

The concern is understood because the Highland economy is such that the lack of the train will have a discernible impact locally. I think some of the doom is fair in that WCR are making no public attempts to resolve this amicably or look at the obvious and legally required solutions. It is not unreasonable to assume, based upon actions and comments to date, that WCR would rather stop the train running at all than lose face to ORR. It is very unfortunate that although the train is linked to Harry Potter there is no licencing of Harry Potter IP as part of the train service AFAIK. I have no doubt if Warner Bros were involved, this WCR situation would have been sorted out by now. We can only hope that WCR are in fact busy putting locks on doors and this was a rather clumsy and ill advised attempt at brinkmanship with ORR.

If it is a spurious one why did you suggest that cruise passengers did not spend money? That was the original point made in your earlier post. It is demonstrably incorrect. Why the environmental arguments is now brought in is not clear, cruises are well known for not being eco-friendly. but then neither are the flights that many Jacobite customers use to get to to Scotland. To quote: "Contrast this with a cruiseship arriving when fully fed. Cruisers descend in hordes , spend a few hours walking around then get back on cruiseship for more food drink , not really spending much locally". The numbers are clear that they do spend and are important to the Highland economy. Cruise passengers may not descend on Lochaber directly but their economic impact is felt right across Highlands, far beyond the area the passengers actually go to. If the cruise passengers stopped coming Lochaber would feel the economic chills as well. # All of which shows that WCR clearly are not sufficiently concerned about the economy of Lochaber or the Highlands to actually put locks on the coach doors.

"And don't come back!!!"🤣

Except that if you are in the habit of upsetting people, they (or their PR company) sometimes do the work for the journo's and hand it to them on a plate. Businesses brief against each other just as much as politicians and celebs......

Reading other fora on this, apparently the requirement for CDL goes back to 1999, and it has been well known for much of that time that the heritage sector would have to do it as well at some point. So over 20 years arguably. CDL is not something that popped up last week out of the blue. To answer you second question is to delve into the culture and mindset that is in operation at WCR. Best we don't go there so as not to upset Mr Y and Mr P, sheriffs of this parish.

Didn't take long for me to be proven wrong.........my bad!

Not entirely accurate to say the cruise ship hordes don't spend much money or arrive not hungry. Cruise ship spend varies enormously according to the port. Escaping the ship and its food and drink can be a priority for passengers. The Norwegians claim they don't spend much as no one gets off at Bergen, but then no one goes on a fjords cruise to look at Bergen, it is for the on-ship experience of being in the fjords. However try and find a taxi or restaurant table in Funchal, Madeira when a cruise liner arrives, or get on any of the well known attractions and you will have your work cut out. The entire city changes its dynamic when the cruise ship approaches. According to WCR the Jacobite brings £20m to the economy, whilst cruise passengers contribute £40m+ across Scotland according to Visit Scotland: "Visitor spend 2.9 It is estimated that £40.6 million was spent directly onshore by cruise passengers and crew in Scotland in 2019, representing 0.4% of all (overnight and day) tourism spend in Scotland. This, however, is a conservative estimate and does not include indirect and induced effects or some spend on tours booked through the cruise operator that is retained in Scotland. In addition, the contribution of cruise spend as a proportion of the local tourism economy varies significantly from port to port and their hinterlands and is estimated to be 2.54% of all tourism volume and 1.50% of expenditure in the Highlands region.4 Spend is focused in parts of the Highlands and Islands and the Central Belt. The five marquee ports accounted for £9 in every £10 spent by cruise passengers and crew in 2019." https://www.visitscotland.org/binaries/content/assets/dot-org/pdf/research-insights/cruise-tourism-in-scotland.pdf So cruise passengers do spend money and contribute. All of which begs the question, if the train is so important to the Highlands and WCR reportedly care so much, why on earth would they waste money on expensive lawyers to engage in a futile and counter-productive JR rather than do the work required by law and just get on with running trains?

After a protracted period of not progressing this, I have managed to get track laid on 3 shelves to create modules. I have a 4th shelf and that will just have straight double track. On a flat surface (our parquet floor turns out not to be flat but slightly wavy!) the align well. They provide a robust 'baseboard and can be stacked. They are piled up on the top of a tall bookcase out of the way when not in use. The track layout is for entertaining an 8 year old rather than prototypical accuracy! The double crossovers reflect the fact I got a retail pack of 10 Hornby crossovers on the Swiss version of Ebay for next to nothing so have used a couple! The top two boards also work well as standalone layouts. They are definitely something (assuming no protruding scenic detail etc) that can be picked up and moved around, stacked etc without risk of damage. So a good basis for a small layout. Next activity is to find a robust and reliable way of joining them together so they can be connected up quickly and easily. Given the end profile this does not seem straighforward if structural strength is required, especially as my trips to DIY stores here has not yielded the same selection of hinges and other potential connectors as B&Q et al in the UK. Cannot find flat hinges for love nor money....All ideas welcome. Electrical connections will probably just be banana plugs on wires through the base as there is no space at surface level for connections due to the tight clearances between trains and the side walls.

I flew in from Switzerland for the 2023 show, was always a great place to meet former colleagues who shared an interest in trains. Thanks to all the organisers and exhibitors over the years. Despite the less than great news this week there is plenty to be positive about in the hobby and Warley won't be forgotten.

Nice. Has the potential to be an epic model.

Same rules as in any consumer situation, book using a credit card for protection in case it goes wrong. Unless WCR are trading whilst insolvent or it is provable they can't deliver the service (unlikely as there is CDL stock around) then there is nothing wrong with this legally. At present there is no evidence to suggest either situation is the case, so they can take bookings. Barring any more unforeseen cock ups or starting more fights with regulators then the Jacobite will probably run.

Tin foil hat time. Last time I checked you are not a mod and it is not for you to decide what is posted on here. If there is anything factually or technically incorrect or demonstrably biased in my posts then do feel free to highlight it or challenge it based upon your railway, safety or management expertise. I have educated if you had read my posts and thought about them. For example I mention the weak court case, and question how that went forward given it was so weak, and that that decision has led to the situation being considerably worse for WCR than it needed to be. That is management education, based upon learnings from serious corporate failings like Boeing, BP etc. Again had you read my posts you would have seen it. Had you bothered to do even the most basic research before posting it would be pretty clear that I am not working for the ORR. I will let you figure that out for yourself. And so what if people do dislike WCR, given the circumstances that is entirely understandable. Personally I'd question the ethical standards of anyone who thinks this is an appropriate way to conduct business. Unlike many people I am not prepared to remain silent when I see people being put at risk through poor judgement, poor attitudes to safety, arrogance, incompetence or whatever. That is exactly why we had Grenfell, the Post Office horizon issue, tainted blood etc. I will comment on it as I see fit until those who have the right to stop me do so (i.e. in this case the RMWeb Mods), so feel free to report my posts. And yes, it is a model railway forum but you may not have noticed this is the section about the real world railway. If it is a problem for you why are you commenting here?

Won't start another thread but some freight news via Linkedin (Vincent Ducrot is SBB CEO and worth following on LinkedIn if you like the technical details): my bold... https://www.linkedin.com/posts/muhm-alexander_sbbcffffs-schienengaesterverkehr-logistik-activity-7151506456356290561-zAi9/ "Let's get down to business: On 10 January 2024, the Federal Council adopted the dispatch on the total revision of the Freight Transport Act. Now it's up to us: the modernisation of single wagonload transport (EWLV) is central to ensuring Switzerland's security of supply. At the same time, we continue to focus on the development and introduction of digital automatic coupling (DAC) together with Europe in order to make rail freight transport safer, faster and more economical. Together with our employees, partners and customers, we will make rail freight transport competitive, sustainable and innovative."

The trigger was the court ruling, which made it very plain what the situtation was. I don't think reference to "ORR just stamping its authority" is appropriate in the circumstances or in relation to a safety regulator dealing with a company with an less than ideal safety culture. If ORR were to allow the exemption now after the judgement and someone got hurt, it would be the ORR in the dock explaining how they allowed WCR to operate witout CDL. after such a clear cut judgement from a High Court Judge. The risk assessment process around this seems very clear. And then there is the media pile in when the WCR back catalogue of not seeing eye to eye with authorities and near misses and incidents comes to light. This is offensive and ridiculous. No one is projecting hate, they are expressing their concern and opinion of a company that has not put safety at the forefront of its operation as is demonstrable by ongoing safety failings and failed legal disputes with safety authorities, as well as their attitude to those who have more expertise than they do. Why is Plan B our concern, it is not ours or yours? If they have one then it should involve improving their inadequate safety performance, culture and attitude. If not then like all outfits who think the law does not apply to they should cease operating. I have little concern for the fate of WCR, I have a lot of concern for their customers and third parties who might be put at risk. The JR case put forward was so weak I am struggling to understand how it went ahead, the Judge even had to explain to WCR that saying random unevidenced stuff in the court room leads to it being ignored. Think about Wootton incident, 30 seconds or so was the difference between a SPAD and a mass casualty/fatality incident with an HST going through a loaded set of Mk1 carriages. Then look at WCR's response to that. Let's stop pretending WCR are the victims here, the Graun website is a better place for faux victimhood. WCR made all these decisions themselves. They had choices and made the wrong ones.

But if we believe what was said in court, certainly for the Jacobite, it is so profitable putting in CDL is entirely possible. It could also help fund other stock upgrades. I'd have thought the smart solution would have been to bend over backwards to demonstrate compliance on the profitable and high profile Jacobite services to get in ORR's good books to negotiate flexibility on exemptions on other stock. They seem to have decided to play Russian roulette with a large chunk of the business and lost. Their track (!) record of engagement with regulators on safety issues is not ideal (and this is now a big juicy media story waiting to break if/when someone gets hurt along with the usual "who the hell let this happen" media outrage), and it is now coming back to haunt them with added karma. But may be the JR was the last roll of the dice for them. We shall see.

Yes. I think we have to be fair and realise many of us on this forum grew up and lived with with slam door stock and manual doors. My own now adult children lived and grew up in East Anglia and never travelled on a Norwich bound mk3 with proper doors(!), so have only ever experienced MU trains with push button operated doors or automatic doors on the Tube, other than a few heritage rail trips. They grew up in a world where operating things, even down to lights and cookers is more likely to be a touch screen or soft button as anything mechanical. It is unfair of those who criticise the younger generation for not understanding a world they have not lived in. Do we criticise them for not climbing to the top of tall chimneys with just a ladder and demolishing them by knocking a hole in them and starting a fire a la Fred Dibnah? CDL's is catching up with that reality in society.

Due to the general ineptitude, cronyism, corruption and stupidty of the UK legal and regulatory systems shutting down outfits like this is difficult. In properly run countries they would already be off the railways. They should have been banned permanently after their response to Wootton IMHO.

Yes, WCR are just playing the victim card to try and distract from their own deliberate actions and failings. If the local economy or WCR staff suffer it is a direct result of the decisions of WCR's management, no one else. However it requires a certain degree of maturity, intellect and professionalism to understand this.

Anyone with the most basic competence in safety management could see this coming many miles off. They had an exemption but to have an exemption you need a proper plan in place, play by the rules and not have any incidents. In a superb example of their genius at safety managemet they decided to fight it and go to Judicial Review with a weak case and managed to prove to the court beyond reasonable doubt that they had failed on all 3 points. That gave the ORR all the ammo it needed to take whatever action it deems necessary. It is not ORR's decision that WCR can't manage non-CDL stock, it is now a Judge's ruling. It takes a special sort of genius to take a less than ideal position and turn it into a slam dunk disaster.

Yes, if there was no alternative strategy or route to profitability they would just burn through the reserves and value in the company until it actually went bust. There is clearly some great stuff within the business but it was not working financially as a whole. There will undoubtedly be discussions behind closed doors and we will see parts re-emerge in due course.