ruggedpeak

In simple terms the fires are self-feeding and oxygenating, like rocket fuel. Once they start you can't put them out by breaking the fire triangle (removing heat, fuel or oxygen) as the battery has all those elements inside it. The fires also takes hold quicker for the same reasons. I would note that the data is clear, these issues are specific to hybrid vehicles and not full EV's. For some reason some hybrids have a higher rate of spontaneous combustion than either petrol/diesel or full EV. Current designs of these batteries is such that if they heat up they vent flammable gases to prevent explosion, normally out of one side of the car, however those gases are flammable and create a flame thrower effect to anything near the vent. So the fire can spread quicker than a conventional fire where flames tend to go upwards initially. And petrol/diesel fires tend to start in the engine bay and will burn for a while within the engine bay before breaking out (hence not opening the bonnet of a car on fire to put the fire out). Everything about the lithium battery fires is different from a petrol/diesel fire, including the smoke and aftermath. You need vast amounts of water to continously drench a battery fire. And even then they can reignite for days afterwards. We will see what the Luton investigation says but I parked there a few months before. You won't get any form of fire appliance anywhere inside the parking structure, which is a lightweight steel structure. A 4x4 fire vehicle might get in but it will only have a small number of probably foam extinguishers on board which are precisely no use at all for a battery fire, and will only suppress a conventional engine fire for a few minutes (unless you hit it almost immediately and get lucky!). So there is no realistic possibility of getting to fight the fire, but frankly if I was looking at the CCTV as is publicly available I'd be evacuating the area ASAP. The fumes fill the area quickly and with a lightweight construction, significant heat is going to create a growing risk of structural collapse or failure. You can't have people, even firefighters, in that area once it took hold. Don't forget most of Luton's fire kit is huge for tackling airliner crashes! All of which makes the prospect of hybrid trains in a tunnel a bit scary.

More than some, highly likely based upon substantive evidence and the opinions of those who actually understand vehicle fires.

An initial statement was made to that effect to the media, but it has been widely criticised for that given that nothing about the fire resembled a diesel fire. It is widely agreed by those with relevant experience and competence that the fire was initiated by a hybrid battery system, probably in a diesel hybrid vehicle. It was not however the diesel fuel system that caught fire, The early stages of the Luton fire can be viewed on youtube, it is clearly not a diesel fire, nor does it look anythign like a fire started via the 12v system. Official sources have made various references to it being a "diesel vehicle", a "diesel SUV" and definitely not an "electric vehicle". Technically correct but misleading, and note no reference to 'hybrid'. I'd suggest doing some research on hybrid SUV fires, a recurring theme that has seen houses and car dealerships damaged and destroyed. A lot of red herrings being put about. With reference to trains, and the speed of the Luton car and Paris bus fires, imagine a hybrid or battery train going up like that in an enclosed or large station like Liverpool Street or Kings Cross, or a tunnel. Let's hope the train tech is safer than that for cars.

Eh?

Late to this one but more relevant is a Paris bus....... Just don't mention Luton Airport car park.....😱

Agreed. If guards had no responsibility beyond PR and customer service then they would not have been/be prosecuted and even jailed for safety failings. Guards have clear legal duties, functions and responsibilities with respect to the operation of trains, and can face serious consequences for failing to carry them out properly, just like drivers, signallers, etc.

Hi They were available as an option/kit on Mickleover's Ltd Edn 'Dunrobin Castle' from a forum contributor, rothburyuk. That was back in 2018 though. Both Accura and Bachmann now fit them to their 37's so they may be available as spares? HTH.

Postage is free on orders over £50 too. Just ordered 3 of their Xmas wagons for the Xmas tree layout, got 200 Reward points for signing up before the order so had another £2 off - with free postage and free bus as well not a bad result for an order just over £50. Bus is a useful Xmas stocking filler. Another spot, I noticed that the latest batch of Heljan Class 25's includes additional stock of the ETHEL 1 from batch 1 (they were nowhere to be found a few weeks back, only the IC livery ones in sales), Rails are doing ETHEL 1 (ref: 2540) for £144, £50 less than ETHEL 2: https://railsofsheffield.com/products/Heljan-2540-class-253-br-bluegrey-ethel1-adb97250

Whilst trawling the web I found the following: TMC have the Bachmann SFX versions of 37262 Dounreay and 37401 Mary Queen of Scots at £285 £252 for Black Friday and £281 respectively https://www.themodelcentre.com/35-311sfx https://www.themodelcentre.com/35-336sfx Roxley have 1 only of 37043 Loch Lomond in SFX at £289.99, they also have some other 37 and 47 SFX's for £290or less (just search 'SFX') https://www.roxleymodels.co.uk/Bachmann-304sfx-class-split-headcode-37043-loch-lomond-blue-large-logo-sound-fitted-deluxe-p-12656.html?osCsid=3u1m0i1k3ujpvdhbshnfekm022

Kernow PBA Clay Tiger clearance - all £29.95 https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/c/1801/2999-PBA-Tiger-Clearance

Slightly off topic, the Rails of Sheffield Ebay store has 20% off with code SAVENOW and currently has a lot of Roco SBB coaches and wagons. I don't know the Swiss model market well enough to know if the prices are competitive but may be of interest to UK based Swiss modellers. Code expires 16/11/23. https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/railsofsheffield

Now September 2024 to reopen fully. The track slab is having to be replaced as well. https://www.iamexpat.ch/expat-info/swiss-expat-news/gotthard-derailment-normal-services-will-not-resume-until-september-2024 https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/gotthard-base-tunnel-repairs-could-take-until-september-2024/65265.article Perhaps VTG's trials in the UK of a 'digital' wagon might be timely for future freight in the tunnel? Wagon monitors itself rather than relying on trackside sensors. https://www.railtech.com/digitalisation/2023/10/12/digital-freight-wagon-by-vtg-and-knorr-bremse-sets-out-on-uk-trial/

So was there actually any difference in import duties as originally asserted? Strangely difficult to get a clear answer.

Is this a fact based upon a knowledge of the detail of trade agreement and the relevant customs policies and tariffs? Interested because in 2021 the UK signed a free trade agreement with Mexico that replicated pre-existing EU agreements.

How does that work?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12493713/BBCs-disinformation-correspondent-chief-fact-checker-Marianna-Spring-accused-lying-CV-falsely-claiming-worked-Beeb-journalist-applying-job-Moscow.html

Whilst the Chocolat Express has been launched with great fanfare in CH, it appears custom is low and most of the passengers on the service are normal commuters. There were only a handful of family groups on the train we were on, and others have reported the same. Whilst not a school holiday in Bern, it was in Gva and other areas. Maison Cailler itself and the tour were rammed all day, but the train at Broc was hardly used morning or evening. Hence presumably the 50% off train and tour tickets for November. Presumably someone was hoping for a shift from car/coach to train, but this has not materialised so far. That said, they missed the main summer season this year so could ramp up promotions with SBB, Bern etc for next summer. Definitely a good day out however!

Sums up the fiasco nicely. Various none-too-bright sorts thought this was a good idea and Harper was left holding the baby when reality caught up with it.

Been a busy few months with work and family, still been taking photos but not had time to post. Hopefully back in the saddle now, we went to Bern last weekend for a couple of days. Bern is a beautiful city, definitely somewhere to go back to. Took the train to Bern from Geneva. The following day, 27/10/2023, we took the Chocolat Express to Maison Cailler, a big chocolate factory in Broc, in the Gruyere (as in cheese) region. As part of promoting this as a day out SBB and Cailler have collaborated to make one of SBB's RBDe 560 EMU's (560 235) a Cailler chocolate train inside and out. We took the Express from Bern to the factory at Broc Fabrique via Freibourg and Bulle, and then enjoyed the factory tour. Well worth it, and lots of chocolate to try. We then did Les Gorges de la Jogne, a gorge walk just above the factory, which was beautiful. For more about the Chocolat Express including train times and other local attractions see www.chocolatexpress.ch - note that there is 50% of the combined travel and museum for the month of November 2023. The factory was rail served, but looked like the station had been rebuilt recently and the link to the factory tarmaced over very recently (the tarmac machine was still parked by the station!). An electric shunter and wagons are part of the exhibits at Cailler. RBDe 560 235 waiting to change platforms at Bern for the 0909 departure: Waiting to depart from Bulle Detail of the exterior Interior Arrived at Broc Fabrique, sat alongside RBDe 560 238 in the rain... Model railway in the Maison Cailler tour On the way back to Geneva we changed at Rormont, a water wagon in a siding at the station And as it is Switzerland and autumn a few shots from the Gorge. All this and a trip up the Funicular railway at Bern were done in 2 days and all by public transport. If anyone likes steak, there is an excellent steak house in Bern called 'The Beef'. Normal trains to follow!!!

One item that may or may not be of interest amongst the usual stuff is an unbuilt DJH Clan kit, £87.60 with discount. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204450673445?hash=item2f9a35b325:g:09gAAOSwLHhk9fED

Could someone advise if these 33's come with etched plates please? Just got 33114 and no plates, want to check if they are missing or not supplied. Can't see any reference to etched plates on the website product descriptions. Ta.

Mmmm, not sure he's an expert in fire safety or vehicle fires. He's a structural engineer and jumps to a lot of conclusions without evidence. He bases his theories on fuel escaping from vehicles, that is not how fire spreads in that sort of setting IMHO. Basically once several vehicles are properly alight the dynamics of the fire take over and the temperatures become so hot that pretty much everything close by starts to burn or vapourise, large quantities of fuel are not spilling out and flooding across the floor, they will vapourise and ignite as soon as they leave the tank and enter that by now 400 degree + flaming environment. This further increases the fuel and temperature of the fire, which then causes other things to combust. However there are not tidal waves of flaming diesel setting other cars alight. That's only in Hollywood. And plastic tanks actually take longer to fail than metal ones in a fire. Basic vehicle safety. And fuel does not pour out out fuel lines in modern cars. You can rely on an Aussie to have a clear view! Agrees with me about black smoke. And turns out the battery in LR products is under the left front seat..........

On level crossings, was watching one of those Fail Army videos, mostly people doing dumb stuff but there are some more serious clips. One was two big 4x4 cop cars with their blue lights on at a level crossing somewhere in a deserty bit of the US, waiting for a huge container train to pass . As soon as the train clears, the lead cop car goes onto the crossing and gets hit by a loco and train coming the other way that they couldn't see. Cop car gets crushed and thrown down the railway line like a tin can, looked really bad 🤕 Update, found the clip

I think you are getting into dangerous territory suggesting negligence. It is/was an entirely open sided metal frame parking structure that will not have required sprinklers under fire/building regs. Note fire regs and buildings regs are two different regimes and are in some cases contradictory. I know the Luton car park quite well as I used it earlier this year in my diesel Land Rover! It does raise questions about how the decision to use an unprotected lightweight structure right next to the airfield was made, but that will presumably have been airport management deciding matters such as cost, speed, planning etc over that or a concrete monstrosity which may not have collapsed. No doubt this incident will inform other sites thinking of using such a system. I would have expected the airport's insurers to have had some input into the process as well, certainly in my role managing car parks elsewhere I have been discussing EV fire issues with the insurers to ensure we do not end up with an issue if there is a fire. I didn't ban EV's but did "ban" charging points being put in confined space or underground car parks as EV's and chargers together seem to be more of an issue.

For some time you haven't been able to buy normal diesels from Land Rover, they only now sell hybrids. We don't know the age of this one. I agree the images are not consistent with a diesel vehicle fire, which tend to have clear behaviours in the absence of serious impact damage. They appear desperate not to suggest it was an EV or hybrid. However anyone who has seen diesel burn in the open air knows several things: 1) it does not burn like that all 2) diesel gives off thick black smoke - the smoke here is light grey, consistent with lithium and related battery materials, not as thick but really, really toxic. 3) the intensity of the initial burn is consistent with it being gas fed - EV/hybrid batteries vent gas when they get hot which is why they are so difficult to put out initially. Diesel normally drips out and the fire is limited for quite some time before it really takes hold. Also the fire is on the nearside middle of the car. Diesel Land Rovers normally have a fuel tank and LP pump at the rear, everything else except sometimes the fuel filter, is at the front under the bonnet including the HP system. So basically diesel fires normally start when something splits or comes loose in the engine bay and diesel goes onto hot oily parts, so the fire starts in the engine bay and is normally detected once smoke starts to come through ther vents or the front wheel arch. If there is a leak at the fuel tank nothing happens as there is nothing hot except the exhaust but the fuel system is kept well away from that for obvious reasons, so the fuel can leak for days or weeks with no fire. The fuel filter has self closing valves and the amount of fuel under any pressure is negligible. Happy to be proven wrong but this does not look like a diesel related fire at all at this point. Back to level crossings, will there be an EV driver who decides to take on a train at a crossing........?