Edwardian

John, I agree, though I would add that those who favour earlier periods should continue to promote them to a wider, and entry-level, audience (I say that as a member of the entry-level audience), and push manufacturers for what we can get. Please forgive another example, but it's recent and true, and goes, I think, to both our points: If you approached me pre-production to pre-commit to, say, an LBSC E4, I would say "great, give me one in its original configuration in Stroudley Goods Green". Mr Bachmann didn't ask me; he just went ahead, and, when he had made one, he said, "here is a re-boilered E4, I made it for all my mates who model BR Southern Region, but, look, I've done one in the earliest livery the tooling will take, and, look, it's a real stunner!". Mr Bachmann then added that he was thinking of doing another Brighton engine, an Atlantic, and this would probably be green for now, but might be brown at some point in the future. I said, "Great, you know what, I'll have one. It means I can model the Brighton, albeit set half a dozen years later than I might otherwise have done, but that's still a great subject". I then thought to myself "the Umber E4 makes the case for finding £250 to give to those nice people at OO Works for an Umber I3, I'd always wanted to give them a go. Oh, now I notice some whitemetal kits that don't look too daunting .... maybe in the not-too-distant future..." That is how it goes for me, and I suspect, would for others. The salient point is that it's manufacturer led, by Bachmann deciding on a couple of releases with pre-grouping relevance and just 'imposing' them on the market, thereby creating need, and creating opportunities for minor manufacturers and kit manufacturers alike. It is true that this is a safer bet because it uses the same tooling as the BR versions that Bachmann knows will sell, but there are plenty of opportunities to do this - backdate existing tooling - that are not being taken. Hornby is the great sinner here, and I use GWR Grouping era here simply because I know at least something about the prototypes: Only 1 of the 2 major variants of the re-tooled Castle has ever been released in pre-war GW livery, yet tooling was made for both variants and BR modellers get both (this, despite it having been around for years now, so, no, it's not just a case of waiting until they get around to it). No accurate '20s small tender variant either. Only 1 of the 2 major variants of the new Star has ever been released in pre-war GW livery, yet tooling was made for both variants and BR modellers get both. Also, no allowance for backdating Stars beyond the '30s, though this latter is a tooling issue. At long last a Hall with a Churchward tender in pre-war GW livery, but only in Railroad, so it needs a repaint and lining anyway. Only the NRM Ltd edition 2800 had the characteristic pre-war look - "Great Western" lettered tender combined with no outside steam pipe. Collett Bow-enders will probably be released in the 1928-1934 era livery, which is great, and I would expect 1935 and post war liveries too. As I say, I do not expect the 1925-1927 as-built livery, which is a shame. I will, therefore, buy 1 set, rather than 2. Hornby does not need to produce a single tool to get really very good coverage of the 1925-35 period on the Great Western. It's just that it won't. Incidentally, that entirely explains the earlier comment that most GW modellers go for the late '30s - that I assure you is largely out of necessity. I am interested in 1935, and I can assure you that the only RTR model to modern standards of a GW passenger-rated vehicle that I can obtain off the shelf is the Hornby GW horsebox. The new Colletts in 1927 livery will change all that; don't get me wrong, I'm overjoyed. Bachmann is slow on introducing and re-introducing pre-war liveries, but at least it does happen (though I am faced with the prospect of spending £200 in order to acquire redundant Mark I coaches and a post-war 'bus as the price of acquiring an unmodified Hall with small tender in pre-war livery (subject to checking the accuracy of the preserved example!).

I believe there is plenty of evidence to suggest "build it and it will run". Most of us are either wholly or partially dependent upon RTR stock, and a head start from RTR would lead many of us into new areas and then allow us to supplement our stock with the odd, say, white-metal kit. Our skills still develop, but its a practical proposition from the start. Lack of RTR support should not, in principle, prevent one having a go. It won't prevent me from having a go, but it will inevitably limit the volumes of entrants prepared to explore other, earlier, periods. That is how it works. As I have mentioned elsewhere, there has been a long, quiet explosion of Sothern Railway/Region layouts over the last decade that precisely reflects the welcome decision of manufacturers to move from RTR famine to RTR feast for this region. Building on what has gone before, for sure, but these modelling trends are at least in part RTR manufacturer led. It's all about doing enough to make a particular period/company reasonably accessible. I might aspire to finescale, kit-built modelling, but I have limited time as a full time worker and family man and I have zero interest in modelling the transition period for however long it would take me to master the skills and produce a pile of etched brass locomotives and coaches for an earlier period. I suspect the myth, persistently aired, that there is insufficient demand for more Grouping and pre-grouping models is precisely that, a myth. Bachmann do not seem to have struggled to shift their pre-Great War version of the LBSC E4. OO Works have just sold out of their pre-grouping liveried I3, and without a picture even published! The same can be said of the olive green Southern versions of these two models. More coherence in releases for earlier periods will persuade more people to try them. You cannot really say that there is insufficient interest in earlier periods when all that has been offered are random scattergun releases based upon often 'inaccurate' preserved examples or upon on what can be easily adapted from what has been released with the BR modeller in mind. There would need to be some specific commitment to the earlier periods and some coherence in the releases. Things have improved significantly in recent years, for which I am duly pleased and grateful, but there is a long way to go. Why do so many of us model the '50s and '60s? Not, I suspect, because it is clearly and obviously the only, or, even, the most interesting and attractive era ever known. That is not to deny it its merits, but to say, goodness, there is a lot more worth modelling out of 150 years of railway history. Obviously, it is modelled in the main because it is what is remembered. It's a nostalgia market. Nothing wrong with that. One suspects that others who don't remember that era may model it also, because, frankly, its the only fully supported era. The hard question is, what happens when the generation that train-spotted in the '50s and '60s hangs up its soldering iron and goes to the Great Shed in the Sky? Is the answer that we will all model blue diseasels onward, with the odd preservation layout (funny how the preserved scene has not taken off as a modelling subject in proportion to the ease with which it can be modelled)? I just want to encourage the idea of providing an alternative; that manufacturers lead us back into a richer past. The foundations for that should be laid now. I do agree with Dunsignalling's point that those who might want earlier stuff should get more organised. Unfortunately, in an individualistic and often opinionated hobby, that would be a bit like trying to herd cats, not least because there is so much more to choose from. What subjects would command consensus? Example: One of my pet obsessions is with the Great Western 517s (the precursor to the well-known 4800/14XX 0-4-2T auto tanks). I am, and remain, convinced that this would sell, for both Grouping and pre-grouping eras in sufficient numbers to make it viable. What response do you get when you put this? Well, one forum member, whom I do respect, said, in effect, "oh yes please, but only if the precise variant/livery/date combination that I have in mind was produced". Therein lies the difficulty in building consensus, whereas, if I simply went ahead and released models of these, within months there would be a raft of pre-grouping "Ashburtons" with my little Edwardian 517 chuffering about with a rake of Ratio 4-wheelers and twice as many Grouping versions with one chuffering around with an autocoach. I would bet money on that. If I had sufficient to invest, I would do just that. So, I am afraid that manufacturers need to read the runes, but then take a lead. it's just the dynamics of the thing. The conclusion. The market, or the shaping of it by manufacturers, has not yet evolved such that faux panelling Colletts can be expected. I would absolutely love to be proved wrong on that.

I suspect that the picture on the Hornby website is chosen because it is a works photo and, thus, suitable to illustrate the coach. It is in faux panelling because they were out-shopped in that livery. Sadly I suspect it does not suggest that Hornby are contemplating this livery. There is generally not the level of commitment to early Grouping to suggest that this would be a realistic expectation. Shame, as Hornby could produce an absolute stunner here. But, then, Bachmann has evidently bottled out of fully lined LMS Period I coaches. Despite the existence of tooling that enables the period-range to be extended backwards, I just don't see this happening. Same old, same old livery options will doubtless continue.

The ubiquitous Mr Downes! Apparently, I can't do a Google image search on "maltings norfolk old photographs" without this coming up, I mean, does it look like it's Norfolk or an old photograph!?!

A tad early for me, but the faux panelling would be superb and I would not resist. A first for RTR and it would be stunning. Hornby are past masters at tarting up crude old (often Triang) models with superb printing to sell at a premium to collectors in train packs. So they could do a wonderful job at faux panelling on these state of the art new Colletts. If I were a betting man, I'd bet heavily that they won't [sigh]

What Sigmund Freud described as "Brunel Envy"

Well, I appear to exist in a former age, so do not expect to find boats to fit my needs (save for Langley's Paddle Steamer, which is rather out of reach). I keep hoping that someone will do a 3-Island tramp steamer of the sort built c.1890-1914, but which, provided they weren't torpedoed, went on forever and would have been seen post-war. But, you asked for views on small sailing vessels. I would have thought that you could hardly do better than you own first suggestion, a Brixham Trawler. I'd have one in 4mil like a shot.

Bl**dy H*ll BG, I must learn how to do this! As my daughter might say, "awesome" (pronounced "ossum" as in "Everything is ossum")

Well, forgive me for knowing very little about the Southern, which I view with a sort of affectionate ignorance, or, possibly, an ignorant affection, but I agree with last 2 callers, Purley Oaks and 70E (which might well be the same place for all I know; there, ignorance fully demonstrated): I like 4-4-0s and the L1 is really smart looking loco. I'd like to see a version to modern RTR standards I could actually run a Lord Nelson I believe. Was it not the case that they were too heavy for the North Devon route to Plymouth and that for Navy Day in 1934 one ran to Plymouth on Great Western metals?

What a pity if it is dead. From the GW perspective, it gave better coverage overall than Comet; the two ranges overlap, but there's stuff in each not covered by the other. Thanks, Tim. In fact, the 7 I have are pretty much all from Ebay. I hadn't been able to find the missing 3, but I'll have a look.

Hmm, Have all but 3 of the 10-coach Centenary set (for the benefit of any Godless Heathens amongst us, that's the coaches built in 1935 (the Great Western's Centenary year) for the Cornish Riviera Limited). Emailed last year. Not even the courtesy of a response. Various other Colletts, e.g. B-Set wanted. Hmph. Wanted 11-coach Riviera set too (the 1929 set for the Limited). Hatton's Kings likely to find themselves seriously under-employed at this rate. Thought about some Ironclads for my T9. Really, there is quite a lot in that range that could tempt me. BUT, will try again based upon Tim Dubya's information. Not holding my breath, mind you.

There is a lot to be said for the "build it and they will run" philosophy. There has been a long, quiet explosion of Southern Railway/Region layouts over the last decade as this hitherto under-represented area grew fairly rapidly from RTR famine to RTR feast. And there are other areas where I can see this happening. RTR narrow gauge is well on the way. Standard gauge small industrials is another pocket. People will buy and run these. How many times do we see L&Y Pugs running as industrials? The LMS only sold 9 out of service if I recall, but, goodness, they've got about! Offer something more appropriate and it will be snapped up. There could be better coverage of Grouping subjects. This is certainly true of the 1923-1935 period; 1936 to 1947 is better served. Pre-Grouping could be less of a scattergun spread of shiny things for collectors and more coherent. Most of us are either wholly or partially dependent upon RTR. We will model more varied subjects if this is supported. Take, for instance, LB&SC circa 1912-14. I have an old Dapol Terrier in Marsh Umber. Bachmann has a Topping E4. There is the OO Works I3, soon to be released in Marsh Umber, and, of course, we are promised a Brighton Atlantic, which, like its GNR counterpart is a must for anyone who can (a) afford one, (b) has a soul ! Things of beauty, but, actually, you have quite a decent cadre of locomotives for a prototypical pre-grouping layout, and the Bachmann SECR C Class can visit! It need not over-tax either one's developing skills or one's bank account to supplement these with white metal kits. You don't have to be Guy Williams and RTR has given you one heck of a head start into something different and rather splendid. Manufacturers might like to lead us down a few more such interesting paths. That's my wish-list.

Thanks. When I can next block out time to concentrate on this and achieve Inner Harmony, I will go through these. I had tried to follow the online manual, but my head kept unscrewing and clattering to the floor.

Thanks. My ambition right now is to get to the stage at which I could actually frame a meaningful question.

Never have I felt so out of it. Downloaded Inkscape. Totally bewildering. Yet you all seem to understand it! I feel I could spend a thousand years stumbling around the thing and never learn to draw a straight line. It's worse than Templot (which had me in full Ed Reardon mode within minutes; I had to scrub that wretched program off my hard-drive and down 3 G&Ts before I could stop shaking). The Inkscape "guide" seems to relate to something with only a passing resemblance to the thing on my screen and was indecipherable in the absence of the knowledge the techies who wrote the guide assumed I had. As soon as it started gabbling about "snapping" in a way that assumed I was as familiar with this concept as with, say "walking" or "frowning", I was lost and never found my way back. How the Hell do you people do it?!? Quite possibly I'm a moron, but really, it's impenetrable to me! Yet you all post away as if using these programs is the most natural thing in the world.

I went to Hereford once. Regimental ball. All the chaps had black rectangles over their eyes. Most off putting. I went to Swansea once. Monumental Mumbles pub crawl. I went to Cardiff once (changing trains on a Sunday). It was closed.

I grew up on the borders of Danegeld. Inhabitants of the village 2 miles distant from ours spoke with a markedly different accent. This village's name had the 'by' ending associated with Viking settlements. Our village bore a name of Anglo-Saxon origin. I persist in the fanciful notion of a causal link between the differing accents and the differing origins of these two settlements.

Duncan, Hang on in there! I swore that, by a certain age, I would stop putting things off and take up modelling. I would make time. In fact, I vowed to do something worthwhile every day, even if that was research rather than hands on, because it would still be a necessary contribution to a given project. I did start, one year late, and it worked for a few weeks this spring, then a house move became necessary and every spare moment since has been devoted to getting the house ready for market. This, on top of a full time job, 2 young children and 4 dogs, has really done for the modelling, so I feel your pain. The good news is that, thankfully, the house received an offer almost immediately. We are making final preparations for the surveyor's visit tomorrow. Fingers crossed it passes muster. Wherever we go next will be a lot smaller, and, probably, a rental. It certainly won't have the 33' x 16' Games Room that could have hosted a model railway! If things go to plan, the next several weeks will be spent packing, not modelling! BUT, at the end of the process, at some point, I will have a large shed and time to do something in it. Goodness it's a job getting there, and I hope that you, too, can arrange things so that at some time in the not too distance future, you have the time to put Hinton Ampner together!

Chris, I meant to ask, what sleeper spacing did you go for in the end?

I went to a relatively minor exhibition 2-3 years ago, specifically to see Rowlands Castle. It was well worth the trip to see it in the flesh, furthermore, Peter Goss was an absolute gentleman, giving of his time to answer questions and delightful to meet. It is a beautiful model, and what I can only describe as a consistency in the way it is finished makes it very convincing. One of my favourites, without a doubt. Anyway, Hinton Ampner is a great concept and I look forward to seeing it 'emerge'.

So, Ashley Bridge:

Sorry to hear that and hope she is well. Mind you, could be worse; when the Memsahib pulled a similar stunt, she broke a George III tilt-top occasional table. Now it's not even a table occasionally.

Yes, strangely, I have a great reluctance to move past August 1914; when I think of pre-grouping, I think of pre-Great War, I suppose because this was the heyday, before the War took its toll. Though I read that some of the best locomotive performance was achieved meeting the traffic requirements of the war, we all know that this came at a cost. Post-war pre-grouping has less appeal, as does post WW2 pre-Nationalisation or Transition Era or "Death Steam". I suppose I am a heyday rather than a fag-ends enthusiast! From c.1895, by which time most of the familiar (to us) elements of the steam-age railway were in place, to 1914, is the most varied and colourful era, IMHO, though I do have a soft spot for that last great brief blaze of glory of the '30s, before it, too, was cut short.

My recollections were of stone-built terraces in the West Riding (I persist in the belief that Yorkshire is divisible by 3, not 4). Often hard to capture such details with confidence from old monochrome photographs.

Interesting, Chris. Paths, their materials and arrangement. I tell you, it's a subject all in itself. There are references to cinder paths near railways (I believe there is even a Catherine - "will ye still love me with me wooden leg" - Cookson novel named for one), and I have tried to represent similar with very fine sandpaper. I've seen pictures of what are essentially brick setts in garden paths. I believe these were often yellow, hence the Road to Oz, I suppose, or blue. Now, there is something for Scalescenes et al to tackle. Seemingly terraces were often built with no apparent divisions between gardens; the fencing being, apparently, left to the occupiers to erect. In the Yorkshire of my youth I recall paths made of flagstones that led directly across the backs of terraced houses, dividing them from the gardens, with all the stone-built privies forming a terrace of their own, often at the end of a row. These terraces often had communal 'drying grounds'. Possibly due to my own lack of observational skills, I don't recall an example of such arrangements in model form, though I remember seeing them as clearly as I can hear the brass bands playing "From the New World" whilst going to buy a loaf of bread. But, then, in them days, we were grateful to live in a hole in the ground...