Richie Kynaston

Afternoon all, Thanks for that Dava, what was the time period when you were travelling? I wonder if they are similar vehicles to those that just about survive as the Lounge Cars on the Caledonian Sleeper - they have loose chairs too! Thanks Andy, I've only had a quick look so far, I've seen a couple of the images before, but hadn't come across the group, so that is really useful. Now that opens up some possibilities I wonder if any one has traction diagrams for the Toton based 45s? Presumably the 45/1s were on Nottingham/Derby - London services? I am assuming the 45s on the cross-country workings would have been Bristol, Gateshead allocated? If you have chance, is there any possibility of listing the 69 locos that were Toton allocated at that time please Rivercider? Thanks, I've got that group bookmarked, but hadn't thought about doing a search within it! Cheers Flood, Many thanks - that is superb, thank you for sharing - also I wasn't aware of the Bashing Years website, not come across that one, my reading list has just expanded considerably!! Richard

Thanks, I’ve had a quick look through, nothing immediately jumped out for the East Midlands in the 80s, but i’ll have another look later. Cheers, I had found the former (shame there are no dates with the images), but not the later, so another one added to the reading list! I’d forgotten about the transfer of Class 50s to/from Doncaster for refurbishment on NE/SW trains. Richard

Guys, Just a quick update, I’ve posted a new thread on the Prototype Discussions topic, seeking to get people talking about the East Midlands railway scene in the 1980s, both for historical record, but also to help with stock planning and operation of the layout. Please do take a look, and if you can contribute in anyway, however small or large, please do so. The railway scenes and operations of the 1980s is one that only exists in photos, books, memories and models, so the more we can document for future reference the better. I am hoping we might uncover some haulage logs from the area or a few days sightings from Chesterfield, Derby or Toton, that would help with identifying locos or specific wagons to model. The topic can be found here, East Midlands Passenger & Freight Action in the mid-1980s. Cheers Richard

Thanks Porkie, Appreciate your comments. There’s a lot to the plans and a lot more that hasn’t been mentioned or discussed! But step by step I’ll just plod forward in my own time. With four locos and three wagons, there is no major rush to run long trains at this point! I’ll certainly keep the updates flowing, good to have you along. Love what your doing with Milton Grove btw, it’s one I keep following! Richard

Hello all, I have debated which main topic this should come in, discussions or questions, but while it’s a question, I am hoping it will stimulate discussion! Some of you may know or have seen that I am planning and about to start work on my N gauge layout portraying a slightly amended version of the East Midlands during the mid-late 1980s, specifically the Derby and Toton areas. So coal will obviously be a key commodity moved. But i am hoping to draw on people’s knowledge, recollections, photos, spotting records and haulage logs to ensure that the workings, motive power, freight wagon types and consists are as close to reality as possible. I have been trawling Flickr and a couple of printed books for info, but I am keen to hear from anyone with any knowledge of this area in the time period. I think this was the final days of Peaks on the MML, probably just down to a handful of locos, but which ones? Was the stockall Mk2a/Mk2b on these trains? When did 25s, 40s and 46a finish in the area? I know in 1987, there were still pairs of 20s on the Derby-Crewe diagrams sometimes, and in 1989 there was the top and tail 20s on the Matlocks? I’m presuming cross-country services were mainly 47s at this time? Can anyone advise about Speedlink consists, or whether some collieries in the area were more usual to see 56s than 58s for example? Did the Redland PGA wagons work through Toton on a regular basis or did they just go South and East from Mountsorrel? I’ve seen pictures of 16-ton minerals behind pairs of 20s in the 1980s, but haven’t been able to establish the traffic flow. I am just starting to acquire rolling stock so want to make sure I get the right things! So any info is welcome, and really appreciated. Even if you just have a list of locos seen on a visit to Derby or Chesterfield for example, it would be welcomed here. I really am grateful for any and all input. My layout thread is linked in the signature if anyone wants to read it. Cheers Richard

Hoping to get the baseboards for the depot built in the next 7-10 days. Now some parts of the layout (ie yard, depot, Derby station etc) will be full cover for the width of the railway, but other parts, such as the gradients, flyover, countryside running etc, I am thinking about doing as open construction to give flexibility. Can anyone suggest what should be used (or give me some pointers) for the baseboards? My idea is to put a 2"x1" framework underneath. Richard

Hi Simon, Just looking through your workbench gallery and found your Class 56 shot. Can I ask how you made / where the replacement jumpers came from? Also any tips on the respray? In about to take a Dapol 56 and put it back to Large Logo livery, well hopefully if it works out right! Richard

David, Did you ever see the Transport Video Publishing programme 'West Coast Today' produced prior to privatisation, so probably late 1980s, includes a short bit on Tring, but covers the whole of the WCML from Euston to Glasgow, 1 hour problem, that I still have on video, not sure if it was ever released on DVD. Edit: Forgot to add, enjoying the progress your making! Richard

Sorry, only just seen your message No, neither will - but the hire of the Class 90s have only continued to provide cover while the 92s are undergoing fitment. The same goes for the DBC Class 67 that is hired for the Inverness working, its provided cover during the Dellner fitment and upgrades for the 73/9s. Night Riveria will continue to be Class 57/6s. Once the new franchise competition starts, the bidders may choose to look and change to some form of bi-mode traction, but a combination of the ETS demand and the Devon/Cornish banks may make that difficult - but technology is always changing and progressing. Thinking out of the box, some option to create a generator car for the trains, taking the ETS demand entirely away from the locomotive may open some doors? But its all hypothetical at the moment! Richard

Hi Dave, No problem I'll put a bit more info on the control systems on in a few weeks, when things have progress a bit and the track is going down. In my mind the various systems all work together! Apple Mac, Arduino, Loconet, TrainController, and PIC! Transferring the wiring diagrams to reality could be a different story of course Richard

Thanks! Yes I think so, for this one, although it needs the etched arrows adding, and some Ironbridge PS nameplates adding, plus weathering. Richard

Thanks Marcus, Ah course, I forgot it had been dispatched back to the land of its fathers, or in this case brothers! Enjoy the SVR! Cheers Richie

Evening all, Well I managed to get a half day at work today, so home and a bit of layout planning while the house was quiet. I said previously that I'd managed to sort the location of Allenton Lane Sidings out so they could stay in the mix, with Derby on the level above them, so got this drawn up in Templot. Also managed to get the Derby station site sorted out. Had to make a couple of concessions, namely that the platforms had to stay relatively straight to get everything to fit in, but added a couple of locomotive stabling sidings at the south end of the station in place of Etches Park Depot. I've also put a full plan on so that people can hopefully see how everything fits together. The track with a red shading (sorry for the rather rough and rubbish shading!) is on the first level - the fiddle yard being baseboard level, then rising up 60mm over a distance of some 10-11ft to reach Level 1. The green shaded track is 45mm higher on Level 2. There will be a scenic break between the four track section coming out of the south of Derby station and the four track section below around Allenton Lane Sidings. In addition, im proposing that London Road bridge will be modelled just after the Nottingham Lines (incorrectly marked as London Lines on this plan) go off, this will cross the Nottingham Lines just after Etches Park Sidings headhunt, and be the point where the Nottingham route leaves the scenic area to descend to the Fiddle Yard. Just beyond this, will be a further exit, where the railway will vanish, allowing the focus of attention to be on the lines rising up to the flyover on the level below. Top right, where ti says route to Burton. The four track will become two track and run through fields and possibly on a slight embankment, with the ground level dropping away, for about 6-9ft before entering a tunnel, possibly something based on Milford on the Erewash Valley Line and descending to the fiddle yard, in reality running under the lines from Allenton Junction to Derby which are on climbing from Level 1 to Level 2. In other news, I have made a little start on acquiring suitable rolling stock. While I don't really 'do' Facebook, I noticed on a Facebook group that somebody was selling three HAA hoppers. Contact was made, a deal was done and these three were acquired for £5 each! The TOPS panels need updating and each will need renumbering, but im hoping with some transfers from Railtec or Fox if they do any, that such a move won't be a big job! The said deal also grew slightly and included another loco! I really must stop for a bit now. Two weeks ago I was planning an N gauge layout with no locos. Now I've got four! :doh: Still at least it was appropriate for the East Midlands I've also had a conversation with Wayne at fiNetraX about his Code 40 trackwork, and that all looks highly positive, so I will acquire one of the point kits and filing jigs next week and try putting it together during my forthcoming week off! Hope I didn't scare anyone off with talk of computer control on the last post Richard

Hi Andy, Looks like your enjoying it, and having fun with the beginnings of your layout. I look forward to the day I can do similar! There really is something to O gauge thats totally different to the other scales, no I'm not going to change, its too expensive! But I enjoyed your couple of recent videos. Richard

Thanks Duncan. Useful info about when to discard paint, and allowing 48 hours between coats. Presumably, people leave any masking tape on the model for 2-3 days until its totally dry before removing? If its any consolation the thought of converting a kit from one class to another and creating resin cast bogies sounds terrifying to me! Its one thing I like about railway modelling, we all have our own areas of interest, no rights or wrongs. Richard

Hi Leon, Just catching up with your thread, I looked a few months ago and having started the beginning, was sad to see you did away with the original. The new 'South Wales Freight' looks as though its coming on tho, and I like the idea of how your creating the hill sides. I am bit more of a BR blue, early sectorisation period modeller myself, but fascinating to see the more modern end of things. I am following along Richard

Hi Marcus, Superb layout, I've been reading all 89 pages of it, here and there as I've had time over the past few days! Sounds like you've been having fun with your 50s again, I am detecting a slight hint of a enthusiast coming through Really must wander out and get the 59 on the aggregate flow out of Tinsley. Its only 45 minutes from me, yet the only time I've seen it was when Bob T got hold of it again, and brought it back through Immingham - I was one of the idiots stood in pooring rain photographing it around Barnetby. I am assuming its still on the Midlands aggregate trains? Safe driving, and remember all work and no play ... you need some modelling time! Not sure they exactly killed it, but suspect it has one hell of a headache with all the wheel flats it incurred! Richie

Thanks Dave, Yes perhaps acquiring an old body before attempting it on a £70 one is good advice!! I've not come across Vallejos paint before so will have a look at that range. I am not an expert by any means on electronics, but I love anything to do with micro processors and making electronic chips and relays do things! No good for what I am doing, but I did come across some infra-red operated units, might be a company called Heathcote I think, where as the train arrives in the fiddle yard road, it breaks the infra-red beam on the unit, that can then be wired to another unit which changes a specific set of points, so as one train arrives, it automatically swaps the points and the next train departs. If you did that on all roads, assuming you have some that are set up to always contain trains heading in the same direction, that would give you some form of automatic system where the same train cannot pass twice - you could then always wire a simple 'on-off' switch between on of the infra-red devices and the point changer, so that if you wanted to have something run continually, the switch would break the circuit and stop the points from changing. Just a thought. EDIT: Dave this was the infra-red unit I found, called IRDOT-P https://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/irdotp.html - I told you slightly wrong above, the infra-red unit can also change the points so it only need one device, not two. EDIT2: This may be of interest to you on the same lines http://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/storage%20sidings.html Richard

Hello Duncan, Thanks for your input, really appreciated. I'll come back to the control queries in a minute - interesting comments about respraying. Something I hadn't thought about was the covering up of the fine detail. Being new to this, and having never airbrushed in my life, before I accept there is a lot to learn, so all input is valid. I am yet to acquire any paints, some people have suggested enamels are better to use than acrylics, but I forget whether that is because of the final finish? Which do you use/prefer? Is there any particular brand for airbrushing that is better, either for working with or finish? In terms of control, you make some valid points, although there is one element of this layout that I have hinted at but not really elaborated on which will hopefully answer all of the above queries. I remember from when I had a layout previously, many years ago, that I enjoyed shunting wagons about, but other times just wanted to watch the trains go past, although when I did I got very disillusioned quickly with seeing the same train go past my eyes more than once. So with 'East Midlands Coal' I decided from the start there were three key aims, firstly it should represent a section of route, not a location. Secondly, it should allow main line and shunting operations, and thirdly, that while it should be a 'rounds-roundy' in terms of fiddle yard-layout-fiddle yard operation, in normal operation, no train should ever operate more than once without a break. The exception to the rule being where I've just go something running while doing scenic work, or when running a loco in. So from the above, I created what you've read about earlier in the thread. I take your comment about the number of operators you have on Shirebrook, although with this it is just a home layout, its not portable and won't be, so couldn't be exhibited even if I wanted to. But to keep the realism to operations, I am intending to develop a lot of computer control for key areas, specifically the computer running services on the main lines (not shunting or depot) under my direction. I know many people will turn off at that point and say "oh but that spoils the fun", but for me, it means that the operator of the layout becomes a signaller, rather than a driver. So while the computer will have control of what leaves the fiddle yard, and when, and what speed it travels at, it will only allow a train to proceed into the scenic section, once the route has been manually set. It does mean I can provide local panels for the yard and depot, so if friends or visitors are round, then people can take control of individual sections. I was very, very fortunate to be able to visit Derby Power Signal Box, thanks to a good friend, in its final weeks of operation earlier this year, before the majority of the current resignalling work started, so have lots of pictures of the panel, and it is my intention using my own electronics to link into the TrainController software, to build something similar (not as large obviously!) - as a panel, not on a computer screen - complete with the four-character identification displays, to control the whole layout. That will include a completely separate timetable IT system (TrainController can handle this, but its all internal and no way of supply information on the timetable to external devices) which will direct fiddle yard departures, along with things like Train Ready To Start (TRTS) indicators at Platforms etc.m So I don't think the control element will be a huge issue, it should make for a realistic signalling simulation if anything! If anyone is interested, I will happily go into a bit more detail about how I envisage it will work and everything will interact. But I take your comments on board - the only trains that will be manually controlled in terms of speed will be shunt movements in the yard and depot. Everything else will still be manually controlled in terms of route setting and authority to proceed, but the computer will take the place of the drivers, so it won't be a sit back, fold my arms and let the computer handle everything, which would get boring to me! I am quite looking forward to the electronics side of this, especially sorting out all the point, detection and route setting interlocks! The advantage to this system being that I can make any movement fully manual at anytime if I want to. Long winded answer, but hopefully that answers the query. Like I said at the start, a one-man ambitious project, but one that is aimed at being long-term and not a quick fix so to speak Richard

Very inspirational, and the detailing is superb. Well done. Richard

Evening all, Firstly thanks to everyone whose reading this thread (almost 1,000 now!) and big thanks to those contributing to it. Its all really useful and helpful to me. I've solved the issue with the Allenton Lane Sidings I think. The tightest was running about 38" radius on the curved area, so I've tighten that to 30" as there will be no coupling/uncoupling on the curved section, extended them slightly and brought the northern exit to the edge of the board. At the north end, where they join the main lines, I've made the four track become two, akin to the north end of the track layout at Burton-on-Trent. The double track main lines will then do a 180 degree loop, hidden, to come back up the other side of the room, climbing up to the upper level as they do, then through another 180 degree curve, back to four track, and the arrival in to Derby station. From here, the trackwork will then do another 180 degree curve, plunge into a tunnel and over the course of the next 18-20ft descend back down to the fiddle yard, with a hidden kickback siding en route to hold the DMU (or 'top and tail' Class 20s) on the Matlock branch shuttle. I am part way through the design in Templot at the moment, so will post it when complete, along with an overview of the entire layout. But thanks to the comments on here (and NGF) I do feel as if the entire design has been improved. Derby in 2018 I was in the Derby area today, so called in to do some pictures and have a look at the re-signalling work that has been going on. Currently services can arrive from the South (Burton) direction and the East (Spondon/Trent) but Derby is presently a terminus station until 8th October, when the route from the north end of the station through to Clay Cross reopens. The Matlock branch is currently a bus replacement. The station has changed remarkably tho, the platforms have been straightened, the track layout at the south end is a lot more open, and talking to the staff, all workings will now be segregated with Cross-Country and North-South freights using Platforms 1 and 2 (along with possibly the Derby-Uttoxeter-Crewe shuttles), Platforms 3 and 4 will be Cardiff-Birmingham-Nottingham and anything reversing, while Platforms 5 and 6 will be dedicated to EMT London-Sheffield workings and the Matlock-Derby-Newark service. The old Platform 5 bay has gone, not even any sign of it, the old Platform 6 is now Platform 5, and a new Platform 6 and 7 (although the latter will never be used according to the staff because of signalling constraints) built where the freight avoiders were. For the avoidance of any doubt, Derby on my layout will be as it was in the 1980s!!! A Voyager on a South West to North East service arrives at the Platform 3, over the scissor crossover (which I would have thought was a bit unusual in the modern day railway). Because of the closure of the north end of the station, the set reversed here and headed north via Spondon and Toton. Interestingly this has arrived from Peartree, under London Road bridge using what were (until Christmas last year) the former goods lines. Another unit, this time heading in the opposite direction. It has run via Toton and then into Derby from the Spondon direction. This set used the Scissors to cross to Platform 4, before departing south after reversal, again using the former Goods Lines. The main lines on the right will normally be used by these services, when the north end is reopened, but Platforms 1 and 2 can ONLY be accessed from the Burton-on-Trent direction, while Platforms 5 and 6 can ONLY be accessed from the Spondon direction. Platforms 3 and 4 can be used by either line. A view looking north of the currently closed lines, with much work still going on. However, while stood there working out what had been done, there was a familiar whistling sound, and these two appeared from Litchurch Lane Works!! Talk about timing Quite made my day. They headed off towards Spondon, so I am assuming they were going to Barrow Hill. I also arrived home to find a package had arrived from Dapol, in the form of these two I've a few days off coming up in a couple of weeks time, so hoping to get some track down, make a start on the Depot, and maybe even start respraying one of these to become 56088 in large logo livery. Richard

Thats looking nice Dave, have you retro-fitted lights to the markers/headlight? Richard

Ah the old isopropyl alcohol .. why didn't I think of that!! Hehe, never heard of the stuff! But I'll investigate and acquire some of that for stripping one of the 56s that are en route from Dapol, which will become a large logo example. My mate is waiting to hear back from Steve at Railtec on the availability of transfers at the moment. Is the masking tape to use, Tamyia? I know from reading various threads on here, that one make seems better than the other but cannot remember which one it is. I also fear I've just spent some more money or should that be ... HAA Set 1 has been started ... Oops! Richard

Cheers - didn’t know you could strip paint with Dettol! Thanks Nick - heard of the Greene King variety but what is the other stuff? I am in no rush so will hang on for the 08 a bit, but if one comes up at a good price, it’s good to know there are options with transfers. Thanks for that, not a title i’ve got or seen before. Heading off to Amazon to spend a gift voucher! Richard

As Flapland said, the ACLG Class 86s and the 87 that GBRf hire are not being fitted with the Dellner couplings, so as of next month, they cannot work the Euston-Glasgow trains or the ECS at either end. Their use with GBRf will finish next Spring when the Highlander sleeper goes over to Mk5 sleepers. What happens to them after that is publicly unknown, although I am hearing suggestions there are plans afoot, although not with GBRf. Most of the Class 92s and all Class 73/9s iin Caledonian livery have now been fitted with the drop-head Dellners, but the power requirements have only been altered on one '92' I gather so far, as once they have been altered, its a different voltage, so they can no longer work with the Mk3s.