mikemeg

Mick, And I dare not even list the number of changes and additions which I made to the LRM G5 kits (I built three together) when I built them. Certainly on the B16/1's, G5's, N8 kits I approached all of these builds on the basis that the kit was the basis (and a substantial basis) of a scratch or at least a 'hybrid' build. Having a detailed knowledge of Arthur's range of kits and his castings and knowing of the quality and contents of David Bradwell's range of castings, along with an acceptance that scratch building was always available, as a last resort, I was able to produce models which were, I hope, substantial improvements on the original kits. Of course what also comes into that equation is the massive improvement in the quality and accuracy of r-t-r models. Just look at the new Bachmann V2; it is simply wonderful!! Regards Mike

Mick, Re the 4125 gallon tender, as fitted to the North Eastern Class S3's / LNER B16's. Arthur does have the correct toolboxes in his range of white metal castings. These were done in conjunction with the development of the Q7, which were coupled to the 4125 gallon tender. Re the tender axle boxes and springs, as I stated in the postings for my test builds, I used David Bradwell castings for these. These castings allow for the different lengths of the spring hangars on the axle box springs as these hangars are a separate component. As for the coal side plates, during the test build someone (I seem to remember it was 'Pebbles') raised the issue of these being 3mm too long. On checking against a General Arrangement drawing, this was found to be correct; they are 3 mm too long. I therefore reduced the length of these plates by that amount - 3mm - by carefully slitting the plates with a piercing saw - 20 mm from their fronts - then removing 3 mm wide piece, again with the piercing saw. A 2 mm x 20 mm strip of .010" brass was then soldered on the inside of the plate at its lower edge to re-join the two parts of the plate, after which the join was filled with solder and then the joint very carefully cleaned up. Each plate took, perhaps, an hour to correct. The joining strip, on the inside of the coal guard plate, will be totally hidden by the coal load. The original 'brief' on these test builds was to check out the original kit as supplied and to then check out the etchings for the new boiler wrapper - representing the later LNER boiler- and the new footplate and splasher etchings representing the last twenty locos built, which were built by the LNER. The brief was very definitely not to identify all of the divergences or dimensional errors from the prototype as none of the original artwork was or is available, So any modifications to the kit could only be made by the provision of replacement parts, which could, conceivably, have involved a large proportion of the etched components i.e. virtually a new kit! I built a LRM N8 (a George Norton kit some thirty years old) but replaced the entire chassis using one of Arthur's J21 chassis etch sets - the N8 and J21 had exactly similar wheel spacing. Various other parts were also replaced or modified i.e. the LRM radial axle, Arthurs chimney, dome, ross pop valves, etc. The result is a very much updated (perhaps even unique) version of this kit build. Since these George Norton or Steve Barnfield kits were drawn and developed, there have been enormous strides made in the quality and accuracy of the etched kits and the availability of cast components. It is simply not possible to reflect these thirty plus years of improvements in those kits!! It is up to the builder to identify and then supplement those older kits to whatever level they consider necessary!!! Cheers Mike

Stephen, thanks for this. I actually revisited these calculations, just to double check. The revisit changes the game, for I had mis-read the result for the 80 mm separation and then did the calculation, again, for the 65 mm separation :- Deflection at 50mm separation = 1.03 mm Deflection at 65mm separation = 1.74 mm Deflection at 80mm separation = 2.64 mm Where separation is the distance between the centre of the front bogie wheel and the tangential point of the chassis on a 4' 0" radius curve. As can be seen, simply increasing the pinch of the mainframes to accommodate the 80mm deflection isn't a goer; they'll just look wrong. So, adding a measure of sideplay on the rear driving axle, to move the tangential point forward, in conjunction with increasing the pinching of the mainframes is the only way this will work and even then the frames may need to be pinched in by up to 1.25 mm as there is around 0.75 mm of play between the main frame and bogie wheel, each side. I hope this short dialogue hasn't bored any readers of this thread but even on 4' 0" radius curves, which are generous on most model railway layouts, not providing mainframe bogie wheel cut-outs does cause problems. And this would be the case for any 4mm gauge, OO, EM or P4. Cheers Mike

So, doing the maths - Pythagoras equation for right angled triangles - on the lateral deflection of the front bogie wheels, using the distance between the centres of the front driving wheels and the front bogie wheels (50 mm) gave a deflection of 1.03 mm; just within the profile of the pinched mainframes. Then, trying out the unpowered chassis on a 4' 0" curve, the front bogie wheels did touch the mainframes. So, something was wrong with the maths!! Then a eureka moment (Pythagoras and Archimedes in the same posting!). The point on the locomotive chassis which is truly tangential to a curve is not the centre of the front driving wheels, it is the centre of the middle driving wheels which, on this loco, are 80 mm behind the centres of the front bogie wheels. Redoing the calculation using 80 mm rather than 50 mm gives a deflection of 1.73 mm. So the pinching in of the front of the mainframes is not enough to allow 4' 0" curves to be traversed. So now a little rework of the front end of the mainframes will be done to increase the extent of the pinching in to allow the locomotive to traverse these 4' 0" curves. Cheers Mike

Thanks Bill. Seems that Mr Robinson, the CME of the Great Central, had the same clearance problems with the connecting rod and the front coupling rod journals on these locomotives. It is one of the inherent disadvantages of P4 that these clearances are simply scaled down without any augmentation through a reduced gauge (EM or OO), so require a great deal of care. Saving the odd 5 or 10 thou (0.125 mm or 0.25 mm) here and there, by using slightly thinned metal sections, becomes the order of the day. I've pretty well sorted the motion clearance issue and am now checking the extent of the lateral movement of the front bogie wheels. The model does provide for a 'pinching in' of the fronts of the mainframes but only by a small amount. My minimum radius curve is 4' 0" so I will need to establish this, mathematically, before I put it to the test. The B16/1 models had this issue, even more, due to the distance between the front driving wheels and the front bogie wheels; similarly the D20's. The obvious answer is to create bogie wheel cut outs in the mainframes but such an approach just 'goes against the grain'. Regards Mike

LNER B4 With a trial fitting of one of the coupling rods plus a connecting rod and crosshead, then the efficacy of my mathematics, in the posting above, can be checked out. Are the calculations correct or just so much rubbish? Seems that the measurements and suppositions in the above posting are about right. Phew!! I must extend my thanks to John Bateson from whom I bought the kit originally and who has since supplied so many new or revised components, as well as a wealth of advice and copious drawings. So another photo, a little more complete and a little more of that essence of the prototype. They were lovely things, these early 20th century locomotives! Cheers Mike

LNER B4 There are some days when, despite many hours of toil, there is precious little to see for all the effort. On other days, a few short processes and the model takes shape; it begins to live! So having fitted all of the mainframe springs and painted and weathered them - much easier to do without the wheels - then the wheels can be added. Suddenly the model, which has inhabited all sorts of containers and utilised various supports, can stand on its wheels and it begins to resemble a locomotive. Still quite a bit to do but the essence of a Great Central 4-6-0 is now clearly visible, though for this photo it's a 4-5-0 as the rear axle will contain the drive train so needs to be removable. Cheers Mike

LNER B4 At this point and before the coupling rods and connecting rods are fitted, time to do a little simple mathematics. For this I use a digital calliper and vernier gauge, which is accurate to around 0.02 mm. a) The ruling measurement for clearances is the distance between the two sets of slide bars, which is 26.2 mm. b) The overall width of a correctly gauged (P4) set of driving wheels is 22.8 mm over the outside bosses. c) Thus the maximum space available for the outside motion is 26.2 - 22.8 = 3.4 mm or1.7 mm per side at the slide bars. However, this dimension would give zero clearance between the slide bars and the motion. d) The thickness of the front journals on the two coupling rods is 0.85 mm. These were assembled without the journal overlays which were applied to the middle and rear journals. Thus, the crankpin nuts on the front journals must be fitted flush i.e. the reverse of their normal fitting, to preserve enough clearance between the front coupling rod journal and the rear of the connecting rod. e) The combined crossheads and connecting rods are assembled such that the connecting rod does not protrude beyond the crosshead and is, in fact, slightly inset. So the positioning of the connecting rod, within the crosshead, does not compromise the 1.7 mm of overall clearance and, in fact, adds a little to it; but how much? Conclusion is that with very careful assembly and attention to these clearances everything will fit and will rotate. Perhaps worth mentioning that on the prototype the footplate steps, initially fitted between the leading and middle sets of driving wheels, were removed because the connecting rods hit them when the locomotive was at maximum speed. So even the real things were very tight for clearance - too tight!! I had a similar problem on the two B16/1's which I built - also to P4 gauge - where the clearance between the connecting rod and the back of the front set of footplate steps was very tight < 0.4 mm or .015". However, on these B16/1 models, the clearance issue was made easier by virtue of the connecting rod being located on the front set of driving wheels. Cheers Mike

LNER B4 So after a long period of component assembly, now time to start the final assembly. Five of the six mainframe springs have been added to the chassis, with the remaining one assembled but not yet fitted. The etches for these springs are quite something to behold, with the sheet containing multiple layers for the spring hangars and the springs themselves with the outer layers having half etched detail. Thus the springs can be built to whatever thickness the builder desires; I used two layers on the spring hangars and three layers on the springs. Any more might impinge on the movement of the eccentrics around the centre driving axle. So after 'teasing into place' the various assemblies which sit on or surround the front driving axle and then supporting the inverted chassis on a suitable cardboard box to prevent the whole lot falling out, a quick photograph before I add the last of the front springs. The 'ubiquitous' cocktail stick - I use these things for all manner of jobs - is simply there in lieu of the middle driving axle. There have been a number of areas where I have diverged from the instructions, not least in the assembly of the internal valve gear. I actually soldered up all of the various joints on these two assemblies rather than leaving one unfixed, which meant that slotting them over the front driving axle was made much more complicated. This was a conscious choice to try and avoid those joints from later disintegrating. The brakes and brake linkage have all been assembled but are not yet fitted until the wheels and drive train are fully assembled and checked out. At last I can see the completion of this build approaching!! Cheers Mike

Mick, You have done an amazing job on this kit. Given its age (drawn and designed over thirty years ago) and given the known omissions, then the result is a real credit to you. As the original artwork is no longer available, then no changes could be made to the original etchings, so any errors in these etchings cannot be rectified. The introduction of additional options i.e. the later LNER designed boiler, the plain splasher fronts applied to those locos built by the LNER, etc. could only be made by adding new etches. Despite its problems, it's probably still the best offering for producing a model of a B16/1 or the original NER Class S3. Regards Mike

LNER B4 So after the brief interruption, to build a new chassis for a J72, it's back to the B4. I have started this phase with the gearbox, which is a High Level Models HiFlier - 60 :1 ratio. While I was in the 'gearbox department' I did take the opportunity to build a new gearbox for one of the A6's, this time using a High Level Models RoadRunner Compact Plus - 60 : 1 ratio. Both motors will have the non-business end of the drive shaft cropped off before the chassis' are fitted The B4 motor is a Mashima 1428; the A6 motor is a Mashima1424. Both of the Mashima motors are from my own stock of Mashimas which I bought some years ago, before Mashima ceased production. So the photos below show the two drive trains B4 (HiFier) and A6 (RoadRunner Compact Plus) with an end on view of the HiFlier to show the various gear stages between the motor and the final drive. Cheers Mike

Thanks Chas, Has to be said that I did use some of the parts from the first build of this chassis, described in the first page of this thread - coupling rods, gearbox, motor and wheels - so that allowed this build to be done more quickly. The sandpipes have yet to be painted and 'rusted'. I do often repeat the final photographs, as I have on the previous posting, as I find the magnification feature on the RMWeb postings does help to get the weathering right. So below is the latest iteration of the weathering process, with everything below the footplate getting a 'diluted' coat of muck and rust. Even so, the loco superstructure is still probably too clean for mid 1950, though a layer of 12" to 1 foot dust does help!! Regards Mike

LNER J72 Chassis The instruction set for this chassis kit does include various arrangement drawings including the profile and positioning of the front and rear sand pipes. So these pipes have been bent up from 0.4 mm wire and fixed into the chassis. On the last photo I noticed a tiny gap between the rear of the cab side sheet and the cab roof, which has now been filled. So apart from painting the sand pipes and a little more work on the weathering, that's about it for this build or rebuild. So for anyone with a spare Bachmann J72 body, with this kit and a few other additions, it can be made into a scale model. Cheers Mike

LNER J72 Chassis The new chassis has been primed, painted, wheeled and powered up and all seems ok. While I was in a replacing/repairing mood, I decided to remake both sets of front footplate steps, so that has also been done. The original steps are very thick and even though the backs were thinned, there was very little clearance for the coupling rods with P4 gauge wheels. The new steps have a much thinner upstand, so clearance is now no problem. Still some painting of the new components to be done and a little more weathering of the chassis and wheels but it's just about there. The sandpipes also need to be made and fitted. So now, 68724 can go to 'The Shunt Ball'!! Actually eight days from the off, one day more than the week I had planned. Cheers Mike

LNER J72 Chassis So the guard irons have been fitted and then everything assembled and fits together without any problems. Care must be taken to ensure that the wheels will pass the brake shoes, otherwise wheeling the chassis will be a problem. Sand pipes, front and rear can be added after the chassis is painted and wheeled, as there are holes to position and fix those pipes. One last photo with the shiny nickel silver before I bury the shine beneath a coat of grey primer and then paint it, prior to fitting the wheels, motor and gearbox and electrical pick ups, which should be done tomorrow. So pretty well there on this, in the week off from the B4. Cheers Mike

Davy, Yes indeed, that is exactly how Chris arranged the etch and for all of the three gauges - 'OO', EM and P4. Chris has also supplied alternative gauged parts for the cylinder fronts and rears and the motion plate, so that none of the detail is lost for EM or OO; just narrowed. Not only that but the lining up of the brake shaft and actuator, so that the brake linkage matches the actuating linkage is also facilitated. Now you can see why I'm such a fan of High Level's products. They do need some very careful work but they produce a wonderful end result!! Anyway, the handbrake and steam brake actuators have been assembled - photo 1 below - and fitted onto the brake shaft which has then been fixed within the journals at the rear of the mainframes. The brake linkage has been separated prior to fitting to the brakes - photo 2 below. And the brake hangars and shoes, with their fixing bolts have all been assembled and are ready for fitting to the brake hangar shafts - photo 3 below. So now a few locating holes in the mainframes need filling and dressing off and then just the final assembly, then priming, painting and weathering. The coupling rods from the first build are being re-used and it was those which were used to set up the chassis jig. Then it is back to the B4, reinvigorated and refreshed!! Oh and John (Rowan) on this posting I've managed to space and separate the photos, so thanks again for the tips. Cheers Mike

LNER J72 Chassis With the addition of all of the brake shackle bolts - about ten in all - then the brake linkage is now ready to be separated from the jig. Someone did ask me how I solder things which are so close together without loosening adjacent components which have already been soldered. The simple answer is that the soldering iron I use has a pointed bit i.e. like an elongated sharpened pencil, By that means the solder can be applied to very small areas and can be applied very quickly. That said, when soldering in these shackle bolts, I did clamp those already soldered to prevent the solder from melting and the piece falling out. I guess the whole process of adding the shackle bolts, including cleaning up the soldered joints, took around an hour. As an addendum, all of the straight pieces of nickel silver strip which which surround the etched parts - i.e. the end strips of the jig below - will be recovered, separated and then stored for future use and you'd be surprised how useful this can be. Cheers Mike

LNER J72 Chassis Lastly, comes the assembly of the brake linkage. The single etched sheet of nickel silver, containing all of the etched parts in the kit, is organised such that the etching of the brake linkage components also contains a jig for assembling the brake linkage. This jig, is designed to allow the assembly of the brake linkage in any of the three gauges for which the kit is designed - 'OO', EM or P4, with triplicated parts for all gauge dependant sections of the linkage. Thus, the main brake linkage stretchers are left in place on the etched sheet and are therefore automatically spaced to fit the wheelbase of the loco. The long piece of brass rod (0.5 mm) is, again, positioned using the jig and allows the correct positioning and orientation of the brake adjuster, after which the brass rod can be withdrawn. A very clever piece of kit design which does make the assembly of this section of the kit very much easier. However, adding the tiny pieces of 0.5 mm rod, to represent the bolts in the linkage shackles, is still going to try the patience just a tad! I'm still just inside my week off from the B4 build, but only just!! Cheers Mike

John, Many thanks for the post, above. I had never noticed the insert option which appears when a photo, already attached, is clicked on prior to submitting (initial post) or saving (subsequent editing) of the posting. My posting, immediately prior to yours above and which occasioned the request, has now been edited using the method you described in your posting. This has achieved the required separation of the two images. Many thanks for that. Regards Mike

Here's a query which someone might be able to help me with. When I attach two or more photos using the attach option, they appear as a contiguous photo entry with no space between them. Now there is obviously a way of interspersing posted photos with text, both as descriptors of particular photos and as a means of delineating a succession of photos; but how is this done? Cheers Mike

LNER J72 Chassis Repeating the build of something which I first built quite a few years ago does provide for some interesting reflections, especially in the almost unconscious acquisition of technique and approach. On this chassis, there are a number of quite intricate parts and assemblies. On the first build, over eight years ago, there were a few times when I thought, dauntingly 'You must be bl---y joking; that's barely possible'. These thoughts were especially prevalent when attempting to assemble the valve motion, the brake linkage and forming and assembling the rear brake cylinder and piping. This time around those same parts and assemblies were not at all daunting and were put together without any difficulty. It never occurred, this time, that these assemblies would pose any difficulties and indeed, they didn't. I guess that's what age and experience does, though as yet, despite my advancing years, the deteriorating effects of age haven't yet made themselves apparent - touch wood or, perhaps, nickel silver!! Cheers Mike

Many thanks John. Equally, your own thread has also long been a 'must read' for me as you build and assemble a wonderful collection of models of the old North Eastern. Very best regards Mike

LNER J72 Chassis Just as an appendix to the previous posting; the very first postings, on this thread, posted on July 10th, 2015 dealt with the building of the High Level Models J72 chassis, first time around. Though the photographs, originally posted to accompany these postings, have long since disappeared, owing to issues when RMWeb updated and then changed their hosting supplier; believe it or not, I still have all of those photographs in my photo files. Thus I have started the job of replacing some of those lost photos in the very first few postings of this thread. Being a confirmed 'photo hoarder' does have its advantages - eventually!! The first one done was 68724 with 69003 being the second build of the chassis kit. Both locos were shedded at Hull Alexandra Dock during the late 1940's and 1950's. The photo, below, was taken in 2015. Worth adding that when these two conversions were originally done, I did also do a considerable amount of updating of the loco superstructures, utilising many of Arthur Kimber's castings and small etches. Also worth mentioning that since these two conversions were done Arthur Kimber (North Eastern Kits) has developed and produced kits for both the short bunker (first twenty locos) version and the long bunker (all remaining locos) version of the J72 both of which I test built. So, yes, I have four J72's. Cheers Mike

LNER J72 CHASSIS One of the habits I try and avoid is that of breaking off from one project, part way through, to start another. While by no means an immutable rule, it is nonetheless something I try to avoid. However, I have just contradicted that rule, though only quite briefly, but then - according to the time honoured homily - 'A change is as good as a rest! Now, quite a few years ago I built a couple of High Level Models J72 chassis' to be used with the Bachmann J72 bodies; the older version. While both of these builds were ok, the first one was very definitely not up to the standard of later builds; the chassis compensation was too stiff leading to pick up problems and the inside motion was poorly assembled. Anyway, having finished these two J72 conversions, I resolved, one day, to re-do the first such build/conversion with a completely new chassis, though retaining the wheels, motor, etc. and using the High Level Models chassis kit once again. Incidentally, the price of this kit, which includes nickel silver etches, hornguides and axleboxes, top hat bearings, gearbox etches and gears, has changed very little since I bought the first two, over eight years ago, and does offer great value. Usual disclaimer; just a very satisfied customer. Having built the inside motion on the B4, and while the mojo for tackling these very intricate motions remained strong, I decided to interrupt the B4, for a week or so, to build another chassis for the first of the Bachmann J72 bodies. This time taking very great care to get the soldering of multiple layer components right and to ensure that everything was totally square on this build. Anyway, after three days I have reached the stage shown in the photo below, with the brakes and brake linkage and one or two other details still to do. This time, those axleboxes will move under their own weight, so the pick up problems should be eliminated. Also, the representation of the inside motion has been assembled with much greater care and the benefit of having built some thirty five locos in the intervening period. We all live and learn!! So, I should be back finishing the B4 by the end of the week and the J72 conversion should also be re-completed. Cheers Mike

While I finish off the B4, here's a picture of another one about to enter the paint shop, after the brake gear and some piping is added. This is the fourth (and very definitely the last) A6 tank, which I have built. This one will be 69798 late - 1950 - of Hull Botanic Gardens shed and will be finished as per the photo below; early British Railways unlined black with the legend spelled out in full. The prototype photo is, as almost always, courtesy Mick Nicholson's collection Cheers Mike