Lacathedrale

My membership to the 2mm Association has come through, so have placed an order for the track for this project. (10m track, 3m sleeper bases, gauges, three Easitrack pegged turnouts and the various associated sundries like PCB sleepers, brass chairs, etc.) and the required loco conversion parts (wheelsets for the 37, DG couplers), and some conversion parts (axles for Graham Farish HEAs, wheels and bearings in preparation for some Stephen Harris etched kits in future). Sneakily, I used the Ebay code yesterday to get 20% off a used Farish 37 and new Dapol 33 - saving myself £40 that was immediately eaten by such exciting objects as 'brass coupling jigs' and 'pcb sleepers'.

I have broken ground today, which makes this already my third most complete layout! Huzzah! It turns out that you might be able to build a monocoque layout with integrated fascia and backscene without screws if you are a good carpenter. I am not a good carpenter. It also might be possible to get dimensionally perfect sheet cuts by hand if you are a good carpenter. See previous. I decided to try the Iain Rice style of construction, using 6mm ply panels for both the exterior and self-supporting structure and have had mixed success - I feel like since basically every joint requires a stiffening brace, one may as well have just made the frame in the first place. Unfortunately the B&Q near me had their cutting service out of action (of course) and so I had to cut the sheet material all by hand. I think I was fairly accurate but the nature of the beast isn't a perfectly straight line, which compounds over the course of multiple cuts - it's meant that my benchwork is out by a few mm at least across the length on most joints. I've smoothed the least egregous and I will attempt tomorrow to plane down the remainder. One unfortunate decision early on was to attempt to do this entirely with a nailgun too, instead of via screws - it just made life more difficult, especially when some errant bend in the material required more than one dimension to be fixed simultaneously. Tomorrow I'll go down there and screw the more important sections together. Any thoughts on the staging would also be very appreciated. I have just realised that bare aluminium angle can't sit directly on the fiddle yard baseboard as a cassette! It needs if nothing else, it needs something to hold it in gauge, right!? I think the most pertinent course of action is to lower the fiddle yard baseboard height by 5.5mm (i.e. the thickness of the plywood I'm using for the majority of the structure). This will involve removing the intermediate scenic break board (again) and the fascia (again). then slicing down the dividing line as neatly as possible. Once reaffixed, this will leave me a 'tray' on which I can sit either a sector place or cassettes using the same 5.5mm ply to bring it back to track level. I would REALLY appreciate any advice from people who have used either method (being quite a boring sod I've gone the whole hog with turnouts in the past so have no practical experience of this fancy gadgetry!). As most of the layout's operation work will seem to involve shunting stock into the rear or front roads, and then running around it to either leave off-scene or get onto the other end to shove, an easy run-around move would appear to useful and thus a sector plate make the most sense, but really I don't have the first clue.

Thanks to the wonderful help in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129304-cementaggregate-business-in-the-80s-90s-and-a-some-br-questions/ I think I have enough to go on to come up with a fully fledged plan for my first go at a layout as an adult. It sounds silly to say that out loud but my previous sophomore efforts were as a teenager or a child; but this time I think I've got a cracker. Purley's difficult gestation ended in the 20th Century with the quad-tracking of the mainline to Brighton and double tracking of the branches nearby. A large engine shed was built by the SE&CR and an impressive open goods yard was set up on the east side of the station, dealing almost exclusively with coal and aggregates. As the freight yard itself came out of use the sidings were sold to private owners. In the 1980's Charringtons was being supplied with coal (presumably for the waterworks and some odd domestic use) and Marinex was recieving aggregate dredged from the Thames up in Cliffe/Angerstein Wharf. While the coal dealer has gone, the yard still exists today. Layout Plan This is the layout plan as envisaged, all 5' of it, with a 3'6" visible area. I wanted it to fit into the Diamond Jubliee Layout Challenge, but the 600mm length is just too small for me without building very complicated pointwork which I'm trying to avoid at this early stage! Here's a render: Some visualisations: Looking across to the conveyor equipment building: https://i.imgur.com/LBLds1P.png Looking along the tracks towards the office: https://i.imgur.com/aFv7O2o.png Description From left to right, there is the building housing the conveyor equipment (the rear track may have the under-track conveyor modelled if I'm feeling brave!) and the distribution conveyor above. Loads of aggregate are kept in bins behind a wall made of old sleepers (no doubt from the now deceased yard) and are painted on to the backscene. The second yellow section is the movable arm of the conveyor and some more substantial concrete bins which butt directly on to the track area. Charringtons the coal merchant is nowhere to be seen on the current layout, so I have hypothesised an additional spur with an under-track chute and conveyor leading to the rear-right building. Nowadays it looks something like this: https://i.imgur.com/YsYDEtU.jpg but I believe is aggregate related rather than being anything to do with the old coal loader - I'll use for the latter however, because it's a unique design and something I can model effectively. The ochre coloured building is a substantial two storey office of the aggregate firm. Closest to the platform is an engineers siding, and directly infront of that is the end of the station platform. There are hoardings there I'll use to cover up the rather abrupt end Construction I cannot think of any reason why I should make the fiddle yard detachable or hinge, given the meagre length of the layout, as such it will be constructed as a single integrated unit of 6mm ply, backscene will be 3mm hardboard. The fiddle yard, such as it is - will be cassette based using aluminimum angle. Once I'm happy with the scenics and track laying I'll be fitting a fascia to bring the view down to track level. Broadly speaking I'm expecting it to go together like so: Gauge, Scale and Standards I will be building this layout to 2mmFS (my first time trying to lay a whole layout by hand instead of just a solitary turnout) and thus technically 1:152. My scratchbuilds will be to this scale and anything from the 2mm Society, but realistically there's not alot in it! Turnouts will be (for now) Easitrac B6 and Easitrac flex. Control Control will be via my little Hornby trainset controller while I'm testing, and then via DCC at some point. I want to try some automation out (although I do admit with a cassette fiddle-yard I'm limited basically to shuttling a loco back and forth!) and get some sound in there. Era, Stock and Motive Power The Purley sidings here saw regular visitors from Class 73's, and 33's and then 37's as the trains got longer and heavier. I'm modelling the mid 80's so can get away with anything from BR Blue to sectorisation and NSE, but I'm going to stick to the former. Maybe the Purley platform will have some NSE branding? Stock-wise, I have JGA (short) and PHA (long) aggregate hoppers, various open and hopper coal wagons, and whatever the engineers bung into their siding. Operation Honestly, not a huge amount - pushing and pulling aggregate hoppers through the unloader (or staging them appropriately on the under-track conveyor), spotting coal wagons and changing out empties, and working the engineers siding. I have been FULL ON with operation on my previous layouts, and so I think something small and relatively sedate might be worth a go. I'd like to exhibit the layout just to get an idea of how all that works too.

That's a good point and something to definitely bear in mind - what are those in the photo I've linked? it was captioned as 'HEA and open minerals'

A 33 or 37 infront of some HEAs and 21T minerals as so may not be 100% accurate but it seems to get a decent way there: http://southpelawjunction.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/37-094-Consett-10-5-82-shunts-coal-into-depot.jpg Revisiting this after some dubiously advised loco purchases (may or may not be directly related to above) and just wanted to confirm where the coal siding was? Would it have been using the same hopper and conveyor system? I'm just trying to visualise it, as right now it seems pretty compact, front to back: - Cripple siding (was this where Charringtons was?) - Unloading track - Runaround track - Engineering track If it's somewhere modelgenic I'd like to include it, and if not I'm going to toss a coin as to whether I put it on what I'm denoting as 'the runaround track'. For some kind of 'purpose' to shunting I can imagine the requirement for a particular job to take away the empties from both the Brett and Charrington businesses while ensuring the loads are replaced in the same spot. Randomised selection (I admit it will probably be stretching credulity to assume they weren't all unloaded immediately and/or sequentially but still!). Using the engineer's siding for temporary space, as well as a nice place to put Grampus/Sealion/etc/etc. Should I also assume that the big conveyor building (and it's associated overhead distrubition belt) and opposite cement mixing building near the station weren't in evidence back then? I ask because they would make nice flanking objects for the layout and I might include them anyway!

Looking for a four-car set of the 4CEP/Class 411 EMU in BR Blue. If it's DCC fitted then that's a bonus, but not a requirement. Doesn't need to be mint or boxed, but no damage.

I am trying something very similar. For the yard, might I suggest the 'back end' of a goods yard? Maybe have some of the tracks in situ but whose turnouts have been lifted (lots of buddleia!) with one or two roads down the middle still in use (as you say, a stabling spot - carriage sidings, etc.). Maybe even have a fueling shed abutting the right hand backscene to provide a scenic break against the mainline, but have it with plastic tarp and temporary fencing around where they're setting concrete (and as such, the locos have to wait 'on layout' rather than inside the shed). Maybe consider curving the layout so the platforms are at a slight angle and not perfectly parallel to the board edge? I mean, just look at how many parallel lines you've got there! If you can spare it, maybe even widen the platform end, shorten the roads and model the station building in half relief. What are you going to do with the loco spur? I've retained both the spur and added a runaround on my version, but set in the mid-eighties I'm finding it quite hard to justify that!

Thank you sir, I have changed the handedness of the bottom right turnout and curved back (so it's a bit more like a Y), which has given a bit more clearance on the runaround road and thus allowing me to bring the fuel shed forward to create a greater block. I'm annoyed because for both plans despite wanting to de-emphasise the back-right corner it keeps coming up! I've also realised to enter it into the 2mm Association Diamond Jubilee Layout Contest it will need to be an honest 600mm * 9.42" which would give me some room at the front of the layout, but I think may look a bit odd with all the track squashed up at the back (since i can't really include the steam shed roads). As per @Harlequin's suggestion I've picked up the Iain Rice "Finescale in Small Spaces" to see if there's anything there I can glean to help.

It is still there (see the map show in my original post) but not used at all and definitely out of service.

Thank you so much Paul, that's perfect - thank very, very much I'm quite focused on building the structures as they are, but as it pertains to a layout I've had to do a big of jiggery-pokery: The Sand Hole moves from stage left to stage right, and the three roads in the fuel shed are flipped vertically to put the tanks between the fueling point and the steam shed running lines. This gives me that scenic break in the rear-right corner which otherwise would be open sky: I've lost both the steam shed road and the stub road adjoining the lengthwise hardstanding (I could probably force it in if I removed the fuel-tank shed, but then I'll have that same hole in the corner again!)

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Hi all, Before I start Spa Road (and/or the Purley cement/aggregate sidings) layout/s, I want to cut my teeth on something much smaller. With that in mind I've got an idea to model the fuel road and one of the old steam shed roads in Hither Green. I can fit a decent amount into a small area without any compression, but I just wanted to check a few things to make sure I'm not going to make any obvious modelling mistakes. If anyone has maps of the layout as it appeared in the 80's I would be infinitely obliged and a donation to a charity of anyone's choosing! Square Brick Building What is the purpose of the building to the left of the yellow van: https://tinyurl.com/y7ymdwsw - it is visible in the middle of this Bing Maps view next to the white car: https://binged.it/2CfjpWA Siding next to Engine shed Parallel to the shed roads, it looks like there was another track running alongside the shed, stopping just ahead of wide roofed building alongside. In this shot dated 1990, it looks like the 56 is stabled on it: https://tinyurl.com/y864ko27 and an 09 from the opposite direction: https://tinyurl.com/y88uj8zc. The turnout for this siding seems to have been lifted, but based on the geometry here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/14144867654/ I'm going to assume that it's roughly where the digger is in this map shot: https://binged.it/2CdE0KC. For a laugh, here it is 40 years prior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/locohunter/37786228034/ Fueling Shed The original fueling shed was replaced (undated: https://tinyurl.com/ybhdggge vs '95: https://tinyurl.com/yayu4x7j). I can't quite tell but I'm going to assume since the same brick building is in evidence on the right hand side of both photos, 'back' of the sheds occupied roughly the same space. It looks like the whole surface was concrete with chairs attached directly, grating either side of the roads. High intensity floodlights replaced the SR lamps at some point (see photo above and previous) If there are any other helpful hints I would gladly take them, but failing that this is my rough plan of the area marked out as I see. Between the ??? building and the small tank (which I gather is probably lubricant as opposed to diesel) there is a concrete shed too, but I'm going to not model that so I have SOME viewing space: If anyone can think of a smart way to hide the corner in the top-right I'd be much obliged - in reality there are another five shed roads and open sky! I'd thought about using the railings behind the barrel storage hardstanding as my backscene, but I quite liked the idea of modelling just one road of the shed...

Understood, thank you both. I promise my last question before I put scalpel and soldering iron in anger - I can't help but think a tiny test plank might be a good show before I start this magnum opus - and it would appear that there's a Diamond Jubilee Challenge of 600mm x 240mm - but I can't find any more information other than that. These two ends of the stick seem like they could be made for each other. Where can I find out more, please?

Thank you both! Honestly I'm less fussed about a specific, was just hoping to get something you might see on an engineer's train in the late 80's - I'll check out those Harris kits but was hoping to get a small bundle in one swoop from the society. Maybe a couple of grampus?

Good shout - I was planning on using aluminium angle for my staging tracks so plain rail on pcb sleepers seems very reasonable. I'm in awe of the Copenhagen fields curved metal sections, might be a bit OTT for my purposes. Will I need to use PCB sleepers in the easitrac turnout kit for electrical bonding or is that just gravy?

33, 73, 37 and 47 are really the only motive power I'm considering for this embryonic layout idea at the moment so that's fine. I'll check out DG Couplers but I was considering Kadees. If an 18" radius curve is not a big deal (and 12" is possible with aforementioned compromises) then I'm happy both ways. Is there anything I should know ahead of ordering my first bundle of stuff from the society beyond the Track book? For now I was thinking of a small pack of Easitrac wooden sleeper base, lengths of bullhead rail and a easitrac B6 turnout 'kit' as well as roller gauges. I can't remember perfectly but I think I made the jigs when I did this in 7mm and 4mm, is that fine in 2mm too? I also wanted to get least one wagon, so I was looking at the BR Sealion ballast wagon, to go along with a prospective Dutch 37. The instructions do not specify that wheels are included, (only that Kadee bogies are supplied) - what's the lowdown (link: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/instruction_sheets/pdf2-504.pdf)please?

More Inspiration Some more inspiration comes from the Widened Lines - I really like the way that Barbican's tilework infers an overall roof despite there not being one there. The 'derelict' platforms at the back from the truncated run into Moorgate also evidence a rationalised service very much 'of the times'. A cross-section of Bishopsgate also provides an interesting study. At the lowest level was the 'relief' station built by the GER and additional terminus until Liverpool Street was opened (at which point it became a through station and Bishopsgate high level became a goods-only). Over the low level station and below the high level station a road bridge cut through to access the interior. It's not a million miles away to think that in my version of Spa Road something very similar happened, but instead of another terminus being built, the low level station was the one closed to passengers (since we don't have a fictional equivalent to Liverpool St). Here's a link that shows the low level station site (in the cutting), the road bridge, and the site of the high level goods station: https://i.imgur.com/KKWyvG9.jpg I think that Fenchurch Street almost is a perfect analogue for Spa Road as seen here: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/fenchurch_street/ A roof over the very end of the station, raised up on a viaduct.I've got a fiendish desire to include some portion of the old London Bridge station - maybe that awful brown footbridge or some aspect of the 1866 lattice canopy. Left board as staging for now Anyway, I think for now the left hand board in the above image will have to be entirely functional - a few pairs of angled aluminium coming out at the backscene portals onto bare wood - there is enough going on without considering that half of the layout too deeply. Low Level Track Plan I do need to think of a more feasible track-plan for the low level of Spa Road. Looking at High Level scenics/layout Also, some better idea of how to utilise the space behind the station - right now there are a good few inches of nothing. An even higher retaining wall a-la Holborn Viaduct (https://www.flickr.com/photos/38339202@N00/11149768884)? A gap to represent a drop back down to street level (ex. tooley Street behind London Bridge) Or maybe just push the station back towards the backscene for more room up-front? Any ideas at all would be most appreciated. I've done some head scratching and I think that if I can somehow justify the parcel/newspaper/perishable workings on the low level (and subsequently prolong the utilisation of the fictional Southwark Street/Ewer Street conglomerate on the other board when it comes around), that 1987 might just be the perfect date for me. Specifically because it shows the introduction of Class 37's on the southern region. I think broadly speaking I could run any of the following without being too out of kilter with reality: EMU’s 4EPB and 4CEPs would be in evidence, the former with some very old overall blue, and the latter with some smattering of LSE Jaffa Cake but otherwise split between blue-grey and NSE. Locos 33s and 73s in BR Blue would be the vast majority, but I could also occasionally see 73s in Intercity for Gatwick express*, 37s in Railfreight Construction and/or Dutch starting to be seen around this time, and a 47 or two (specifically on newspaper traffic (Dover/Victoria was a thing), or in Intercity on excursion/cross-regional passenger workings). Overall I'm really quite surprised at the variety. * I appreciate that a Gatwick Express service stopping at a three road station might be a little outlandish. At least I'm on the right line,. and maybe there are engineering works. Also, I was the most excited badger in the set when my mum's friend got me a Class 125 HST locomotive... until it turned out to just be the unpowered tralier. Still, Intercity to me is still the childhood epitome of grandiose travel and that two-tone brown/cream is very 'of an era'.

A slightly more elegant render of the above with a 2mmFS track plan superimposed: https://i.imgur.com/A4LaGOS.png

Understood - if it really is possible for Bo-Bo diesels to go around a 12" radius with some gauge widening and/or check rails then this really does introduce some compelling other options for layout plans. I think I need to make a definitive choice as to whether I want the layout to be portable or exhibit-able. I've never tried the latter and fancy giving it a shot at least once; so I think that rules out a continuous 4' radius loop in the shed at least at first, but it (that is, exhibiting) may never materialise at which point it could become a much more realistic proposition. This is broadly what I'm thinking (at least, the right hand model): https://i.imgur.com/A4LaGOS.png

Hi Mike, I'm indeed putting together what I believe the Americans define as 'protofreelance', that is to invent a place/track layout/location but otherwise superimpose proper working practises, locomotive choices, etc. ontop of it. In this case I'm imagining a pair of BR(S) layout modules joined back-to-back. While joined each half would act as a fiddle for the other, or they could be separated and a dedicated fiddle yard attached top each for 'exhibiting' one or the other. A small concession is where no major design compromises need to be made, to provision for perpendicular exits at the end of each board to permit a continuous loop while at home. See here: I think my problem is that I have built both round-and-round and end-to-end shunting layouts based on American practise and they just haven't stuck. After laying the track and doing the wiring and a little scenery, I've found precious little reason to continue onward with either. That was a few years ago however, and no doubt a change to a prototype that I have some familiarity with will make a big difference. Do bear in mind that SOME level of automation will be happening on the layout so I can 'sit back and watch trains' with a glass of wine or whatever even if the layout is end-to-end. Could you elaborate a bit? I'm not disputing what you're saying but if you could explain a bit further it might help. In my mind, across the high level station throat or across to the loco spur there, along the low level towards their bufferstops and both along and away from the Southwark Depot seem like they would be good spots for photos. I definitely do agree that the Southwark Depot end of the layout absolutely needs more work done on it - it really was just a sketch. In the above render I've just shown it as a passing loop.

Thank you - seems hard to find, but I tracked down a s/h copy on Amazon along with the 2mmFS society 'Track' book, so hopefully between the two I should be able to synthesise an interesting and realistic layout between them. Everything I have read subsequent to posting this thread has shown me the validity of designing something of an appropriate size and achievable specification in order that it can be actually completed is significantly more important than striving for a magnum opus. I am very aware that I have not completed a layout in EM, P4, S7, 14.2-Fine or 2mmFS - let alone exhibited one. As such I think my primary consideration must ultimately lie in that vein at first. Ultimately despite ruling out the loft as an area for a permanent fixture, it seems I have many small nooks and crannies that could hold anything from a 3' test plank up to the aforementioned 8'6" linear length of the shed (and even longer temporarily in the living room). With this in mind, I have refined my criteria more thoroughly in that the layout should have modular exit point (blue arrow), so that I can fit a straight fiddle yard either directly (for exhibiting) or via a 90 degree bend module (red square, for shed use), have a visible section no longer than 7' in length (black box). If the design conspires to permit a perpendicular exit on the tip of each modular section (noted below in orange) so much the better; but I am expecting this to be a learning process and as such will not cry too hard if the overall design prohibits it. It seems that 3mm and 2mm SE&CR is going to be a complete pig - I am not prepared to wait multiple years for the kits or parts to become available, so ultimately it means my SE&CR plans will need to come as a secondary layout in those scales, or be limited to 4mm in a more modest layout than we've previously discussed. On the other hand, Idea #2 (as touched on in this thread and in my other potential layout plan thread here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129319-spa-road/ ) or Southern Region blue diesels is supported very well in 2mm, which given my new available space does lend itself more to 'railway' operation.

Glasgow Road seems to have a very similar vibe too - but is alot more compressed. Having seen some lovely use of negative space while browsing the forum today (inlaw trouble!) I'm eager to ensure whatever I come up with can capture that. Anyway, 3:01 onwards here: https://youtu.be/Z1_3jEW5Fmo?t=178

Interesting - so at what point could I expect to start seeing 37's? I guess mid ~80's?

I really could not resist doing this in TT 14.2-Fine. The slightly smaller scale but higher fidelity of trackwork mean it fits into roughly the same footprint (8'6 x 1'4"). All turnouts are B6 with an 11' way on the passing loop. The whole layout is on a slight concave curve and doesn't run parallel to the board edges (which I see all the time and can't help but feel is silly with hand laid/flexi-track ??) In this version of Edgeworth the fiddle yard in this would have to be a traverser - assuming backscene thickness and some form of stop on the other end, one would have a usable 2' or so which in TT is a Small Prairie and a B-set or a Pannier and a rake of half a dozen wagons and a brake van.

This is almost verbatim what my original thought for the high/low level lines around Spa Road would look like: https://www.flickr.com/photos/45131642@N00/37778828601