watfordtmc

Just when you thought this thread was dead … I cannot answer your specific question, but a recent opportunity to look through Mike Barnsley’s book on the Midland & South Western Junction Railway’s (MSWJ) rolling stock (See Ref.) provides a possible clue – I think. The MWJ had no Iron Minks, but Mike Barnsley’s listings of the MSWJ’s wagon stock tell us that a number of MSWJ wagons were used “… in the South Wales docks …” When these wagons were transferred to docks use they were renumbered into a 20xxxx series. Thus: MSWJ Open No. 30 (GW 34334) became Barry Docks wagon 203610 in 1930 MSWJ Ballast No. 278 (GW 80814) became Cardiff Docks wagon 202931 in 1927 MSWJ Open No. 68 (GW 34372) became Newport Docks wagon 203501 in 1930 MSWJ Open No. 294 (GW 34501) became Port Talbot Docks wagon 201471 in 1936, and MSWJ Open No. 38 (not renumbered) became Swansea Docks wagon 200836 in 1924. Not every wagon transferred was an Open: MSWJ Brake Van No. 4 (not renumbered) became ‘Cardiff Docks Tool Van’ 200928 in 1924. Nor was every location involved either in South Wales or a dock: MSWJ Open No. 102 (not renumbered) became Brentford Docks wagon 202184 in 1925 MSWJ Open No. 32 (GW 34336) became Gloucester Depot wagon 204117 in 1933 MSWJ Open No. 33 (GW 34370 became Newport Depot wagon 204746 in 1934 The last transfer noted under the GWR was MSWJ Open No. 166 (GW 34457) which became Cardiff Docks wagon 203134 in 1947. By 1951 however, when MSWJ Open No. 169 (GW 34460) became a Cardiff Docks wagon, it was renumbered 067558 in the British Railways (Great Western Region) Internal User number series. Clearly the 20xxxx number series was reserved for wagons that had very restricted spheres of operation, but were possibly not internal users as we might understand the term today – I have seen reference to such wagons being written: Not to run more than 3 Miles on the Main Lines. My assessment is that when 58725 was ‘condemned’ from ordinary traffic use in 1949 it then transferred to an storage use. It would appear that in 1949 the BR internal numbering system had not come into use and internal/restricted user numbers were still being issued on the GWR system. This is a speculation only though I have to say. Reference Midland & South Western Junction Railway Volume 3 Carriages and Wagons, Barnsley M, Wild Swan (Didcot) 1995. Regards TMc 22/08/2021

I have the Yeadon's - all photos are taken from the side or track level.... There is one photo which shows an engine being scrapped, with the tank taken off. The safety valves are mounted on to the boiler top, so they must have reached 'atmosphere' through an opening in the tank as you have surmised. So the question is: did the J52's have a plate covering the opening or was it open to air as per the J94. My own feeling on the matter, is that before the Ross pops, whatever safety valve was fitted had a covering; originally what Yeadon describes as a 'brass trumpet', and later a, cast iron casing. Both trumpet and casing would have covered the void in the tank. The Ross pops were fitted from 1926, and I reckon at that time it would have been seen as good practice to fit a plate over the tank top void through which the safety valves protruded. Although the LNER was far from wealthy, the 20's and 30's were not the era of war time austerity or shortage of materials that informed the design of the J94. But that's only my opinion. The unknown factor is whether the 'covering' would have been omitted during the war and subsequently. In practical terms I'd be inclined to leave well alone unless there was an absolute need to make an alteration. Yeadon notes that all engines (boilers) were converted to Ross pops but doesn't say when that was achieved or when each engine was converted. Reference Yeadon's Register of LNER Locomotives, volume 46 Part A Classes J52, J53, J54, J55, J57 & GNR 19, Booklaw Publications 2008. (Although the brainchild of W. Yeadon, no Author or Editor is actually identified in the book!) Regards TMc 07/08/2021

I did. Very interesting - did I spot a 24' van in one of the images ?! Regards TMc 01/08/2021

A couple of other images: A small, not very good quality image, of E230494 (Ref 1). However, the photo was taken at Hull and the accompanying article stated that ‘…single 20’ containers are loaded at Hull to many inland centres on converted “Lowmac” wagons…’ which give another area of operation. Also a colour image of E260857 in use as a runner wagon in 1976 (Ref 2). References ISO and freightliner containers, Easton K, Railway Modeller Aug 1970, vol 21, no. 238, pp 252. Camera & Comment, Vincent M, Model Railways Sept 1988, vol 5, no. 9, pp 435. Regards TMc 31/07/2021

@Nearholmer Yes, the 24’ vans were 4 wheel vehicles. At risk of prolonging a very off-topic veer from the OP’s original question; long before Gordon Weddell had his books produced, he contributed a long running series of LSWR coaching stock drawings to the late Model Railway Constructor (MRC). If anyone’s interested enough, the references are: 30’ PBV – LSWR Bogie Coaches – 11, Weddell G, MRC November 1973, vol 40, no. 475, pp 417 notes, pp 419 drawing. (Despite the article title, this does cover the 30’ PBV’s). 44’ PGV – LSWR 44ft Passenger Guard’s Van, Weddell G, MRC November 1981, vol 48, no. 571, pp 754-755. 32’ Milk – LSWR 32ft Special Milk Van, Weddell G, MRC Oct 1979, vol 46, no. 546, pp 580-581. 24’ Vans – LSWR 4-wheel Luggage Vans, Weddell G, MRC April 1976, vol 43, no 504, pp 142-145. This also covers the 22’ vans. Two of the CCT’s were also drawn in the late Modellers’ Back Track (MBT): A Brace of CCT’s, Bunce P, MBT August-September 1993, vol 3. No. 3, pp 160-161. These articles do not contain the detail of the books, but might be more accessible. Regards TMc 29/07/2021

Back in the day Nearholmer raised this point: To which I replied: Which just goes to show that I was talking out of my posterior, as a further rummage around my bookshelf revealed that I have Gordon Weddell tomes that give us some pointers as far as LSWR vehicles are concerned. As @Compound2632 would say, I should never trust my own word… I have reviewed 5 groups of vehicles: 30’ Passenger Brake Vans (or BZ in BR parlance) . 86 vehicles received SR numbers (Ref 1). 44’ Passenger Guard Vans (B or BG) . 161 vehicles received SR numbers (Ref 1). 32’ Special Milk Vans – 6 wheeled (PMV). The whole fleet (16 vehicles) received SR numbers, but a number had received modifications to make them suitable for aeroplane traffic during the First World War (Ref 2). 24’ Vans – a large group of several varieties, the PLV’s of the LSWR. 378 vehicles received SR numbers (Ref 2). Carriage Trucks – A very diverse group. 111 Open Carriage Trucks (OCT), a type the SR did not build, received SR numbers, together with 58 Covered Carriage Trucks (CCT). The numbers below combine both types (Ref 2). Year No. Withdrawn Withdrawn 30’ PBV 44’ PGV 32’ Milk 24’ Vans Carriage Trucks 1923 1 1924 9* - 6 1925 10* 1 6 1926 - 2 9* 2 1927 2* - 3 2 1928 2 - 6 11 1929 - - 3 8 1930 3 1 7 9 1931 3 1 5 31 1932 - - 17 16 1933 4 16 19 14 1934 1 24 1 13 7 1935 7 36 - 24 9 1936 14 37* - 37 17 1937 8 27* 1 24 9 1938 4 17* 2 29 20 1939 18 3 28 - 1940 1 1 66 1 1941 8 83 1 1942 2 1947 1 * Includes transfers to the Isle of Wight. From which it would seem the Southern had something of a brake van crises in the mid-1930’s, and that 24’ vans made up a much larger proportion of the fleet then we appreciate these days. However, the withdrawal numbers for the 24’ vans and Carriage Trucks seem to correlate with the delivery of the new Covcars from 1928 and PLV’s from 1934. Basically the Southern Railway was a much less homogenous entity than the post-war Southern Region photographic record leads us to believe as @Compound2632 has noted. A, sadly posthumous, vote of thanks to Gordon Weddell for his diligence in recording the data, and his persistence in getting it published. References LSWR Carriages Volume 1 1838 – 1900, Weddell G, Wild Swan (Didcot) 1992 LSWR Carriages Volume 3 Non-Passenger Carriage Stock, Weddell G, Kestrel Railway Books 2005. Regards TMc 29/07/2021

I’m not GWR expert either, although I seem to have written a lot about GW Iron Minks just recently. Garethp8873 has the answer I believe; this seems to be a former Barry Railway ‘Iron’ Mink – it appears that the bodies were of iron sheets but had steel stanchions. Considering a different set of page in Iron Minks (see Ref) pointers to the Barry Railway origin are: The roof radius was different resulting in a slightly higher side, which I think is visible in the image, compared to the van next to it. There were ‘commode handles’ on the ends – the sloped grab rail we can certainly see. The headstock appears to be cropped at an angle, a feature only found on the Barry vans. The van seems to be fitted with independent brake either side, which was a Barry feature. I’m intrigued by the door catches. I would have expected than to match each other. Yet one appears to be inside the central stanchion on the left hand side, but on the outside of the central stanchion on the right hand side. They also seem to be at different heights. Reference 1. All about GWR Iron Minks, Lewis J, Lloyd M, Metcalf R, Miller N, Historical Model Railway Society 1980, pp 29 -32 for discussion on Barry Railway Iron Minks. Regards TMc 27/07/2021

But they had wooden bodies, steel underframes and vacuum brakes…! I did umm and err about including the Catox, but it was no trouble to include them, and you know how it is – if I hadn’t included them someone would have complained that they had been omitted. I’ve looked at little bit more into the Covcar and Luggage/PLV deliveries as below: COVCAR Nos. Quantity Delivered 2023 – 2072 50 Mar 1928 - May 1928 2251 – 2280 30 Apr 1929 – Jul 1929 2371 – 2460 & 2241 – 2250 100 Apr 1931 – Feb 1932 2491 – 2500 10 Feb 1933 – Apr 1933 1731 – 1780 50 Nov 1938 – Dec 1938 LUGGAGE/PLV Nos. Quantity Delivered 2181 – 2230 50 Oct 1934 – Mar 1935 1054 – 1250 197 Apr 1935 – Apr 1937 1921 – 1970 50 Oct 1938 – Dec 1938 1251 – 1358 108 Feb 1939 – Jul 1939 1359 – 1398 40 Jul 1939 – Dec 1939 Reference 1. An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, King M, OPC (Ian Allan) 2003. Regards TMc 27/07/2021

Some more thoughts provoked by this thread but Off Topic of the Model (perhaps) Axle boxes Iron Minks (Ref 2) confirms that oil axle boxes were fitted to new builds from, effectively 1898 (the decision was taken in December 1897). Retro-fitting, not that any railway would have called it that at the time, commenced from ‘early 1899’ and was completed in 1915. Whether fitted with grease or oil boxes, all new vehicles, and those converted to oil boxes, were rated at 9 tons until 1904. Grease boxes for 37856 and 57065, and oil boxes for 11070, 11250 (?), 69309 and 69354 are all correct. Brakes Although GWR Goods Wagons (Ref 1) suggests that some GW Iron Minks had Dean & Churchward brake gear (DCB), the more thoroughly researched Iron Minks (Ref 2) found no evidence of this. However in the 1920’s some of the older Gunpowder Vans which were fitted with DCB were converted to Goods Vans which might be where confusion has arisen. I’m excluding vacuum braked Iron Minks from the above observation! The model has the correct 1 and half (!) brakes for the 1937 and BR liveries; and probably for the ‘Late’ livery Cement Vans Compound2632 comments that the Cement companies did not seem to meet the problems that Spillers did with their vans. I wonder if the difference lay in the nature of the goods. Would cement dust, inevitable no matter how carefully the caks/bags were loaded or unloaded, mean cement was classed as obnoxious goods? Goods liable to damage any other goods loaded into a van with it, or to contaminate/spoil the vehicle. Although Common Carriers, I believe the Railways could refuse to convey such goods in their own wagons, or to charge a premium price to do so, as the captions in the Warwickshire Railways website seem to suggest. Common User Common user for unfitted vans was implemented from June 1919 (Ref 1). I interpret this to mean that the companies (under the auspices of the RCH?) freely negotiated an agreement between themselves, as opposed to the Government/Railway Executive Committee imposing a ‘common use’ arrangement under the Defence of the Realm Act during the First World War. “Condemned” Is ‘Condemned’ the same as ‘withdrawn from traffic use’? Good question! I incline to say No. The way I see things, the purpose of the Registers was not, regrettably, to assist modellers over a hundred years later to make accurate models, but to keep a record of the company’s assets. It would be when that asset could no longer make a contribution to the company’s operations that it would be ‘condemned’. So an Iron Mink could still be contributing to the company as a static, vermin-proof warehouse, rather than wheels turning, conveying goods from one siding to another. In British Railways days such vehicle were eventually identified with an Internal User number, but I do not know what Great Western practice was, or when the use of Internal Numbers was first implemented. Iron Minks data sources The Foreward to All about Iron Minks states: Lastly acknowledgement is made that much of the source material used comes from records in the custody of the Public Record Office, Kew and the National Railway Museum, York. (Ref 2) Longevity You always think of how you could have said or written something better after it’s too late. Bearing in mind Compound2632’s views on Victorian goods wagons lasting until the BR era, I did pick out post war withdrawals. So I probably ought to have said as much. Here are the examples withdrawn by the GW (cty Ref 2): 37608, built 1888, condemned 1936 37666, built 1889, condemned 1937 47305, built 1889, condemned 1945 57066, built 1891, condemned 1935 (noted as being at Brentford Docks from 1933, so as a warehouse not a traffic vehicle) 57244, built 1891, condemned 1938 57353, built 1892, condemned 1938 58074, built 1893, condemned 1938 57917, built 1893, condemned 1934 59620, built 1897, condemned 1946 59621, built 1898, condemned 1947 69627, built 1899, condemned 1947 I’m not sure anything can be drawn from the list, but almost 75% of the 16 vehicles listed in Iron Minks went before vesting day, and two of those that made 1948 were withdrawn that year. Salvage There were two salvage vans, but only 47305 had a ‘life history’. See first sentence under Longevity! Vent Hood length Vehicles built from Lot 255 onwards had the longer vents: Lot 255 (1899) – Nos. 69651-69750 Lot 272 (1899) – Nos. 69751-69850 Lot 310 (1901) – Nos. 11007 and odd nos. to 11342, plus 59651-59700 Lot 352 (1901) – Nos. 11025 and odd nos. to 11396, plus 69851-69890 References 1. GWR Goods Wagons (3rd Edition), Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Tourret Publishing 1998. pp 364-373 for discussion on Iron Minks. 2. All about GWR Iron Minks, Lewis J, Lloyd M, Metcalf R, Miller N, Historical Model Railway Society 1980, pp 17 for table of selected examples, pp 11-19 for discussion on Iron Minks. Regards TMc 27/07/2021

Nearholmer raises an interesting point concerning how long pre-grouping vans lasted on the Southern Railway. I cannot answer that particular point, but after some searching through Southern Couches (Ref 1), a sort of time line for the Maunsell ‘family’ of passenger vans up to 1939 looks like this: SEC ‘Cavell’ Vans – 45 by 1923 Covcars/CCT – 50 in 1928, 240 by 1939 Scenery/GUV – 10 in 1928, 20 by 1939 GBL/Corr PMV – 74 in 1930, 119 by 1939 (I can only make the numbers add up to 119, but King states 120 built) Catox/SCV – 50 in 1930 PLV/PMV – 50 in 1934, 445 by 1939 Van C/BY – 50 in 1937, 200 by 1939 Van B/B – 50 in 1938, 100 by 1939 (It would be so much easier if RM Web supported simple table formatting !!!!!) From which I infer that what we now think of as ubiquitous Southern vans only really began to make an impact on the Southern ‘scene’ from the mid-1930’s, whilst SR Passenger Brakes only make their presence felt in the late 1930’s. Reference 1. An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, King M, OPC (Ian Allan) 2003. Regards TMc 25/07/2021

Quite a lot of thoughts being raised in what passes for a mind by the posts in this thread, so many that to save you the verbiage, I’ll break them into separate posts. First the model. There are some criticisms about the model, the brake gear and roof being two specific items mentioned. But I think we need to be realistic here and consider what the model is and what it is not. It is a bulk produced, fully finished, ready to run plastic model, manufactured using a modern production technique. It is not a high-end craftsman kit, etched in the thinnest practical gauge of metal, that will need to be soldered together to produce an actual model. A kit that also needs to painted and lettered to complete. The real vehicles were known as “Iron Minks” for a reason, which was that the bodies were produced from sheets of iron. These sheets were specified to be 11 BWG (Birmingham Wire Gauge) thick. 11 BWG is about ⅛” or a shade over 3mm. The brake push rods were 2½” x ½” strip, and the safety straps 1½” x ¼” (Ref 1). A plastic model simply isn’t able to replicate the fineness of these items, and still be viable as a useable item. I would accept that the production process is, perhaps, being pushed beyond its practical capability. But I don't think that means that Rails/Dapol have skimped on research or failed to consider design issues. If you’re not happy with the Rails production, you don’t have to buy one. But if you want an Iron Mink for your railway, the only other options are to try and score an ABS white metal kit from somewhere, or purchase the venerable Ratio/Parkside plastic kit. However, neither white metal nor injection moulded plastic will replicate the fineness of the prototype either, and the Ratio kit comes with some dimensional challenges of its own as discussed in this thread, which I might postulate on in a separate post. I do have some reservations over the BR liveried versions, as I don’t think anyone has come up with compelling evidence of a Great Western Iron Mink that’s been repainted into full BR unfitted livery, AND is still in revenue service, as opposed to use as a store somewhere. Indeed W47120 [RL-BRV6-001) was condemned in 1950 (Ref 2), so is unlikely to have been repainted. But that’s your choice. Incidentally, neither source available to me (Ref 1, Ref 2) lists an Iron Mink numbered 88331 (RL-GWV6-004). Can anyone give an informed comment on this? References 1. GWR Goods Wagons (3rd Edition), Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Tourret Publishing 1998. See pp 366 for engineering drawing of an Iron Mink, cty Railway Engineer but uncredited. pp 364-373 for discussion on Iron Minks. 2. All about GWR Iron Minks, Lewis J, Lloyd M, Metcalf R, Miller N, Historical Model Railway Society 1980, pp 17 for table of selected examples, pp 11-19 for discussion on Iron Minks. Regards TMc 24/07/2021

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, and fresh from being beaten up over my views on the Somerset & Dorset, I plunge once more into the maelstrom of things I don’t really know a lot about. However, after a lot of effort, coughing and sneezing I managed to extricate my copy of ‘All about GWR Iron Minks’ from its dusty hidey hole. I will not deceive you – it’s not very helpful. As far as revenue earning service life is concerned the booklet has this to say: The majority were condemned in the period 1933 to 1939 but an appreciable number survived World War 2 and passed into British Railways ownership (Ref 1). Of the circa 4,800 Iron Minks built, a table lists, very briefly, the lives of 16 vehicles. The earliest ‘Date condemned’ quoted is 1934, but others listed include: 47305, built 1889, condemned 1945 (the notorious ‘Salvage’ van) 47120, built 1889, condemned 1950 (although Rails are producing this in full BR unfitted livery…) 58331, built 1895, condemned 1948 (including service as a Gunpowder Van between 1938 & 1945) 59620, built 1897, condemned 1946 59621, built 1898, condemned 1947 69303, built 1897, condemned 1950 (including service as a Gunpowder Van between 1938 & 1944) 11307, built 1901, condemned 1953. A caption to one of the images notes that 58147 was built in 1894 and condemned in 1947. The booklet does not give a view on when the last example might have been in revenue earning as opposed to departmental/service use. Nor does it give a view on what a “…appreciable number…” might be. Although not relevant to the model, three of the Lot 398 predecessor vans to the standard Iron Minks (with 9’6” wheelbase; 16’6” over headstocks), built 1887 survived to be nationalised, of which 22563 was condemned in 1949, having been converted to Cordite Paste van in World War 1 and fitted with vacuum brakes as a consequence and then used in the Lyons tea traffic from Greenford between the wars, whilst 3294 was condemned in 1954. Or at least, that was the date entered into the Wagon Register. As to backdating the model to 1902, or thereabouts, I suppose the print file could be tweaked to eliminate the second brake lever and block easily enough, but converting the OK oil axle boxes to the grease type might be more of a challenge. Reference: 1. All about GWR Iron Minks, Lewis J, Lloyd M, Metcalf R, Miller N, Historical Model Railway Society 1980, pp 11-19 (Standard Iron Minks), pp 17 for table of selected examples, pp 13 for image of 58147 and pp 7-10 for the first iron mink design. Regards TMc 24/07/2021

A personal view on the price. When the OPC book was published in 1979 it cost £5.95. For that you got 136 printed pages, including a system map, gradient profiles for Bath to Bournemouth West (!) and Evercreech Junction to Burnham, two Appendices but no Index. More to the point you also got around 230 images, 60 track diagrams and 50 signal box diagrams. Captions… well, they were brief; mostly single lines of text. For want of any better measure all this equated to 23 pence per printed page. If you were to publish the same book today, the Bank of England Inflation calculator suggests the price would now be £31.00. But you cannot get the same book today, and if you want a feel for how the SDJR was laid out and enjoy the more informative captions we expect these days, then the Derek Phillips/Irwell Press book is your go to option. As Strathwood points out, your £35.95 for 350 printed pages will set you back around 10 pence per printed page. So it seems to me that despite some issues, you do actually get quite a good bargain from this book and if the SDJR is your ‘thing’ then it’s worth investing in a copy. Regards TMc 23/07/2021

It also managed to omit all stations Broadstone (exclusive ) to Bournemouth West (inclusive) as well as Wimborne. Now, to be sure, all these stations were strictly London & South Western, but Bournemouth was pretty fundamantal to the SDJR's operation - not to mention Branksome depot - so I would hope that Derek and Irwell have addressed that omission in their volume. Personally I'd like to see a 21st century version of Robin Atthill's history, but I very much doubt there would be any market for that now. Regards TMc 21/07/2021

Just a nudge back to the front page for this thread, with a couple of dull images of an actual wagon, albeit in departmental use: ‘Livery’ seems to be rust, but with an triangle on the door. I’ve tried to make out the lettering but failed. However, given the location (on the Liverpool Street – Cambridge route; ‘West Anglia’ in today’s parlance) I suspect something to do with the Divisional Civil Engineers yard at Leyton. Regards TMc 20/07/2021

Putting my pennyworth in here; for what it’s worth is that I’m with Porcy on this one. Looking at the van at the largest size the lappy will manage, it has the same pattern of bodywork as the CC8, i.e. (from left) Panel with diagonal bracing, pair of framed doors with bracing, two panels without bracing, pair of framed doors with bracing and a panel – although I will admit I can’t see the diagonal bracing that should be on this panel*. The end framing matches that for CC8, as do the three roof lights, including the middle one being off-centre. If it’s not the CC8, it’s a very close relative of same, derived I would suggest, from a Mink D just as the CC8 was. Although it’s not a very exact comparison to be sure, the van doesn’t seem to be as long as, say, two of the 16T minerals also in the image. The Mink D’s were 28’ 6” over headstocks; a pair of 16 tonners would be 36’ over the furthest headstocks. Quite what the Stafford Road Tool Van was doing at the basin is another matter though! * Which the CC8 does still has, as it’s survived to serve the Severn Valley Railway. Regards TMc 19/05/2021

The Don Rowland image you show comes from the Cheona Publications’: British Railways Vans vol. 2 (Ref 1), but had been published earlier in David Larkin’s Bradford Barton volume on parcels vans (Ref 2). There is also a rather small Swindon official of W3302 (no suffix at the time) in the ‘Tome’ (Ref 3), as an “Insixfish” and without the ‘chalk boards’ on the doors visible in Don Rowland’s image, along with a copy of the diagram. There are a couple of not very useful images in early 1960’s issues of Trains Illustrated, showing a van in the formation of a Milford Haven to Paddington service – along with an FM container loaded onto a former Southern Railway Conflat D, both marshalled between the engine and passenger vehicles. I don’t have a copy of David Larkin’s subsequent Kestrel book on parcels vehicles, so can’t comment on whether there are any further images in that (And with Amazon currently quoting £906 for a copy – yes NINE HUNDRED POUNDS – I’m not likely to acquire a copy either!). I looked in the relevant volume of Longworth (Ref 4) to see if there was any information on dates, to no avail. Longworth notes the transfer of the batch 3301 – 3329, except nos. 3312 & 3328, to the Scottish Region but no date is quoted. He does note nos. 3302/3306/3308/3309/3313/3316/3319 & 3325 as being withdrawn between 03/1963 and 09/1964 though. I’m not sure if these are month dates or railway ‘period’ dates. No withdrawal dates are quoted for any of the vehicles that remained on the Western Region. I have no confirmed information on dates, but offer the following speculations: By the early 1960’s the first pattern of LMS fish vans, based on a Midland Railway design, would be approaching the end of their lives, especially as quite a lot, if not all, were built on second-hand underframes in the first place. David Larkin (Ref 2) suggests that these LMS vans were withdrawn in “…the early 1960’s…” He also suggests that 6-wheeled vehicles were barred from passenger trains from 1959 but if this is so, it doesn’t appear to have applied to the S13’s, since his caption to the image of Sc3304W states: “…some were transferred to Scotland, where they were used on Aberdeen fish trains and also on passenger trains.” (My italics). My speculation is that the Scottish Region had identified a continuing need for vans to convey domestic fish traffic and due to diminishing fish traffic generally, it was found possible to transfer a number of the quite recently built, and insulated, S13’s to Scotland to replace withdrawn LMS vehicles. Inferring from the statement about the early LMS fish vans being withdrawn in “…the early 1960’s…” suggests that the transfer would have taken place, possibly by 1962, and obviously by 1963. Fish traffic by rail basically collapsed during the 1960’s. Ref 2 has images dated to 1969 of former ‘Blue Spot’ fish vans in traffic either as Insulated Vans or as SPV’s. So I think it’s a fairly safe assumption that the S13’s would not have been in traffic any later that 1969, and quite possibly withdrawn rather earlier, judging by the dates that Longworth quotes. David Larkin’s caption notes the S13’s “… were used until about 1969…”. References: 1. Railways in Profile Series No 11: British Railways Vans vol 2, Gamble G, Cheona Publications (Chinnor) 2000. 2. BR General Parcels Rolling Stock. A Pictorial Survey, Larkin D, D Bradford Barton 1978. Image p15. 3. GWR Goods Wagons (3rd Edition), Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret, Oxford Publishing Co (Ian Allan) 2013. Image p 351, diagram p 352. 4. British Railways Pre-Nationalisation Coaching Stock Volume 1 GWR & LNER, Longworth H, Crecy Publishing 2018. Looks a very nice model and I hope you're not on crutches for too long. Regards TMc 18/05/2021

When I was employed nearby in 2016 there WAS a wagon turntable connecting the two lines, and it still appears on the satallite view of Google Earth. The image suggests that its now been obliterated to allow an extention of the Lighterman bar, or for another retail unit to be put in place instead. Regards TMc 17052021

I don’t have a copy of the definitive reference (even though I ought to have!) which is this, but reference to the ‘Book of…’ for the W class tanks (Ref 1) indicates that the first batch, delivered in 1932 were finished in Black lined Green. The second batch, delivered in 1936 was finished in plain Black, as were the Q class, delivered in 1938 (Ref 2). My judgement therefore is the lined black livery was applied for the first decade of the Southern’s existence but began to disappear from the early 1930’s and, probably, ceased to exist before the Second World War. If you would care to repost your query in the: Prototype / Special interests - UK prototype / Southern Railway Group section you should get a definitive answer rather than my speculations though. References: 1. Southern Railway Big Tanks: 4 W 2-6-4Ts 31911-31925, Tibble L, Irwell Press 2016 (see Nos. 1911, page 12 and 1912 pages 16/17 for lined black, and 1925 “…ex-Ashford Works…” page 66 for plain black). 2. Southern Workhorses Q 0-6-0s 30530-30549, Tibble L, Derry R, Irwell Press 2019, pp 16 for livery notes. Regards TMc 24/03/2021

Something a little more urban... ... complete with my unpolished toecaps! Plenty of Post Office Telephones access lids about but tbis is something a little more unusual. Image taken 28/02/2021, five minutes walk from Watford Junction. Regards TMc 01/02/2021

Not what you are really after, I think, but may I draw your attention to British Railways Illustrated June 2019, which has an image of W69121. However, the van is still in 1936 small GW livery except that the GW has been painted out and a W painted in front of the number. The image is dated 1951. The standard work on GW Wagons (Ref 2) has an image of GW 69131 from the same lot (L182) which the caption claims was built in 1897. 69131 was photographed in 1947. References: 1. ‘Working Wagons 29 Huntingdon North’, Deacon N (Image by AE West), British Railways Illustrated June 2019, Vol 28, No 9, pp 408. 2. GWR Goods Wagons, Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Oxford Publishing Co (Ian Allan, Hersham) 2013, pp 371, plate 495. Regards TMc 26/02/2021

There is an image of W35971 in the Railways in Profile series No. 17: “G.W.R. Wagons Before 1948 vol. 2”, plate 104. The image is dated 1952, and the van is in 1936 small GW livery, with the ‘G’ painted out. The vacuum pipe upright is painted white. This van is also written: To work between / ACTON & SMITHFIELD ONLY. / ACTON.R.U. An earlier allocation has been overpainted by the Acton RU. Ref: Railways in Profile Series No.17 G.W.R. Wagons Before 1948 Vol. 2 Diagrams S Fish Wagons to AA Toad Brake Vans & DD Tank Wagons, comp. Tourret R, Cheona Publications (Llanffyfni) 2009, pp 57. Regards TMc 26/02/2021

A cupboard door wagon would be unusual in the Welsh coalfield but not it seems impossible. There is an image in ‘The 4mm Coal Wagon’ (Ref 1) of a wagon descending from the hump of Feltham Marshalling yard. Although taken at a very oblique angle, this vehicle appears to have cupboard doors as well. More to the point, the letters ‘G L M’ are painted on the end of the wagon. GLM – Gueret, Llewellyn & Merrett were, I believe, colliery agents rather than colliery proprietors’ in their own right, but seem to have been a significant part of the Welsh coal trade until the 1920’s. In 1930 they were part of the amalgamation that formed Welsh Associated Collieries (WAC), which in turn was taken over by Powell Duffryn Associated Collieries in 1936 (Ref 2). A Google search turned up an image of a GLM cupboard door wagon on the Gauge 3 Society Forum: http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1406.0;attach=2216;image So Welsh cupboard door wagons are not unknown, but probably not very common. Great Mountain Colliery Co. Ltd. had become part of United Anthracite Collieries by 1926, and UAC amalgamated with Amalgamated Anthracite Collieries in 1927. AAC lasted until Nationalisation in 1947 (Ref 3). As well as the grey livery you show, both Hornby and Bachman have issued a Great Mountain wagon in a dark red colour, Hornby as a cupboard door wagon and Bachman as a conventional side (& end) door wagon, so I presume there is an image of a real Great Mountain wagon available, although I would not care to say how close the models are to the real vehicle! My only reservations with your plan to nationalise the model, are that: a) the elaborate liveries of the 1880’s and 1890’s had given way to plain black with white lettering almost universally throughout the Welsh coal trade before the First World War – so a lot of grime would seem to be called for; particularly as Great Mountain had ceased to exist some 20 years earlier, and b) the livery suggests a wagon running in the 1890’s at least. On the convention that wagons had a 40 year life span in revenue service, the vehicle would have been withdrawn before the Second World War. However, the trade depression of the 1930’s and the needs of WW2 could have kept the vehicle in service into the post-WW2 era. References: 1. The 4mm Coal Wagon, Hayes J, Wild Swan Publications Ltd (Didcot) 1999, pp 97 (image taken in 1950) 2. https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Gueret,_Llewellyn_and_Merrett 3. http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/Carm/great_mountain_colliery.htm Regards, TMc 03/02/2021

Will confess I hadn’t appreciated the changes to VAT regulations made by HMRC under the guise of Brexit were impacting out of Europe transactions as well as those within Europe… As Mark says, Wizard Models would be a good place to try first. Their terms and conditions note that you are responsible for “...responsible for paying any customs duty or local sales tax upon arrival in your country. Your refusal to pay these charges (the amount of which we cannot inform you of in advance) and the goods subsequently being returned to us will not entitle you to a refund” so they’re obviously aware of the challenges of international trade. However, they do take cards, you can shop online and there’s an email address as well. All in all, probably a better first place to try before you get involved in Masokits given your circumstances. Wizard Models should be here: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/ And the T&C’s should be here: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/tc/ I think that Bill Bedford item: 'BWF002/4 RCH Wagon Sprung W-irons, 1923 pattern for Oil Axleboxes' would be suitable for springing all the kits you reference, whilst item: 'CES900/4 RCH 9’ Wheelbase Wagon Brake Gear', will provide the brake parts for all the kits except C84 Midland 10 ton Van D664. Unfortunately, the 10’ Wheelbase brake gear that would suit this kit is shown as out of stock. My only concern in respect of the brake parts, apart from the fiddly factor, is that I think for anything fitted with the ‘Independent either side lever double block’ as listed in Darryl Tooley’s post above would need you to use two of the etches on the fret. Wizard Models do not list a MT224, but the Mainly Trains item: 'MT223 Etched Wagon Brake Gear – 9’ Wheelbase Morton RCH' would suit all your kits, except C84, with the proviso that you’ve already noted. MT230 could well be useful as well. I have no exposure to Masokits other than what I have read, most notably in Geoff Kent (Ref 1) and (the late) John Hayes (Ref 2). In his comments about the brake gear John Hayes opens by noting “Modellers who enjoy a challenge…”. So you have been warned! To be fair the Masokits list does say the items are “… a fiddle to make…”. I see that you’re signed up to the Scalefour Forum, so you may well find a better description of the parts there. If you were looking to use the Masokits springing units, then my reading of the Masokits list suggests that item: ‘6.01 9’ 0” Wheelbase with Morton Brakes One Side Only’, would suit kits C81, C84, C92, C102. You would need items: ‘6.01 and 6.02 9’ 0” Additional Morton Brake Parts’ for kits C57 and C58, and item: ‘6.03 10’ 0” Morton Unfitted/Fitted Brakes’ for kit C80. If you were just looking to use the brake gear parts then item ‘1.03 Morton Lever for 9’ 0” wheelbase’ would suit kits C81, C84, C92, C102. You would need items: ‘1.03 and 3.02 Additional 9’ 0” wheelbase parts’ for C57 and C58, and item: ‘2.04 10’ 0” Morton Lever with Brakes Both Sides for 10’ 0” wheelbase’ for kit C80. All rather complicated. Not sure if the above really helps, but hopefully you can make something of it. References: 1. The 4mm Wagon Part 3: Conflats & Containers, Wagons for long loads and steel, Brake Vans and Finishing touches, Kent G, Wild Swan (Didcot) 2004. 2. The 4mm Coal Wagon, A step-by-step Guide, Hayes J, Wild Swan (Didcot) 1999. Regards TMc 29/01/2021

J, I’ve had a look in the Historical Model Railway Society’s (HMRS) on-line photo archive (Ref 1); they have 17 images covering 14 different catering vehicles (albeit two are ex LNER now allocated to LMR), but only three images have been digitised. These cover D1912 Kitchen Car 30087, and D1938 Restaurant Kitchen 245 (2 images). To save you the tedium of the HMRS search tool this link: https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs.html?railway_company=521&subgroup=202&subject=6033 should take you directly to the list of ex-LMS catering vehicle images. I’ve also looked at the RCTS website (Ref 2) as I understood that the RCTS were the custodians of John Cull’s photographs, but the only LMS catering vehicle listed is in preservation. But it may be in both cases that I’ve missed vital search term or another of course – and I’m assuming that you haven’t already visited these sites!. Not much as you say. Regards TMc 25/01/2021 References: 1. HMRS Photo Archive: https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs.html?limit=30 2. RCTS Photo Archive: http://www.rcts-shop.org.uk/features/archive/index.htm