Bryn_Bach_Railway

Admittedly something I should have asked in the original post. But I forgot and vanbasher mentioning them has just reminded me. I only got the additional curtains included with the first class coaches (BFK and FK) and not in the TSO’s. I assume this is correct? especially after looking at the layout of different coaches. Thought I’d ask just incase.

managed to take some this morning before work. as mentioned above, the mk2B’s are fitted with Kaydee #19’s. I believe the 37 is fitted with Kaydee #18’s. side on view of the mk2B end with Kaydee coupling #19. side of view of the end of the class 37 with Kaydee coupling #18. The class 37 coupled up to the mk2B’s. Note the coupler heights here are normally much more level, I just happened to position the loco right over a change in gradient and didn’t notice until now 🤦🏼‍♂️. You could probably get away with even closer coupling if you only couple up in straights and no curves. I would add tho the incredible free rolling of the coaches does mean that if your coupling up very slowly with the goal of not moving the coaches at all, you’ll more than likely end up pushing the coaches away before actually coupling up. I would add tho I’d rather have to increase rolling resistance than have locos struggling with the coaches etc. it’s also partly due to me running a shorter 5 coach set on close to but not perfectly level track too.

I believe extended, happy to be corrected if wrong tho. As far as I’m aware buffered are recessed when coupled up and extended when not. personally I won’t be changing mine as the heritage line locos run around and couple up to both ends. but for fixed rakes where the back is always the back, it think it’s going to add a nice subtle detail that once noticed won’t be in-seen. Especially when these make it out to exhibitions on layouts etc.

My 5 blue and grey ones for my heritage line arrived today, and they are quite superb in all honesty. Their currently having some running behind various heritage line locos including Accurascale’s 37 043 ‘Loch Lomond’ They come with additional CAM’s for the couples to allow for closer running, although I’m not entirely sure they can get much closer than out of the box with the magnetic couplings fitted (which are incredibly seamless too). As well as a wealth of other details including extended buffers for if the coaches are not in a rake (they come ‘pushed back’ as standard as they would be when coupled) (gap when coaches are pulled apart under their own weight, using the supplied magnetic couplings) (gap when coaches are pushed together, again with the supplied magnetic couplings) As with the mk5’s the stay Alive’s on these coaches is very powerful too, a good 5 or so minutes (admittedly not timed). I took the BFK coach off the track before opening the last TSO, as I forgot to change the coupling at one end. By the time I’d got the last TSO out, swapped the couplings on both coaches over to the included magnets / kaydees (for each end of the rake) and placed the coaches back on the track, the lights in the BFK had only just started to go out. It’s going to take some incredibly dirty track to allow the coaches to turn off. For anyone who is interested, I’ve used Kaydee #19’s on the ends. The back part of the coupling is in-line with the buffer ends and allows the majority of locos to couple up on a slight curve, if the coupling is set up in the same position on the loco. The only ones that are not are locos with kinematic couplings that have a larger overhang when not under tension, all bogie mounted couplers have so far been fine. They are also incredibly free rolling, so much so I ended up with multiple runaway trains when setting up the rake (probably best not to set these up around an incline) and I can’t get them to stay still over the Kadee magnetic uncouplers I’ve got installed. To be fair that last point is much more of a problem with my layout and not the models, but is there any advice on how to increase rolling resistance 😅?

Obviously no one here wants a repeat of the class 56 thread (including myself). I’ll deal with that separately through the appropriate channels which I clearly got wrong before. I apologise to everyone for the way I handled that, and for simply how long it went on for. I’ll be apologising to RBE and the cavalex team in due course, however I feel that apology needs to be more in-depth and handled privately once I know I’ve included everything I need to. I’ve also already sent an apology to AY Mod. I am going to make one genuine request here to avoid this entirely in future, which has already been somewhat jokingly suggested above. I’ll then leave the discussion around it there. I was not entirely sure if I should post this at all, but I think this is the best place for this request as it is not really relevant to the support channels. I’ve also tried to be as polite and non-hostile as I possible can be with my wording of this message, if I’ve worded something wrong here too I apologise in advance and I’ll work on that in future. ~~~~~~~~ If the model is going to require an ESU decoder set up a certain way, please can this be made clear in the product description and/or listed on the box somewhere. Bachmann do this with their class 90’s due to the servo operated pantograph, and personally I think it should be adopted by all manufacturers even if just recommending but not requiring specific decoders. I appreciate the class 60 might not be at a point in development yet where decoder set up is not fully known, so I wouldn’t expect it to be confirmed yet. I also understand the class 60’s have more complicated lighting. However once the decoder set up has been finalised and confirmed, an appropriate update would be appreciated. I’d just like to be made aware when purchasing a model (payment on arrival for pre-orders) if a specific decoder is required to access all the lighting functions, Without needing to cross check different platforms to get all the information. I think others will benefit from that information being in the description and/or on the box too. I’m aware it’s stated in the loco manual, but by the time most users get to that the model has already been purchased especially when bought online. ~~~~~~~~ I do admit I’ve posted much more negativity on these threads than positivity, and that needs to change starting now. At the end of the day I didn’t return my pair of class 56’s as the are great models, I Just had an issue that I handled incorrectly and discussion spiralled out of control. I do have to say that the physical detail on the model looks outstanding as It is on the 56’s. having seen the photos as well as the samples at Model Rail Scotland, the bar for detail is being raised yet again. Depending when these arrive, I do genuinely think Cavalex have 2 consecutive contenders for model of the year. ~~~~~~~~ Apologies for the length of this post, there was a lot I wanted to make sure I covered in detail. As said above I’ll leave the discussion around DCC there, and will work to handle future situations better.

I have a problem with a Cavalex product, as such I am contacting Cavalex. If they deem it appropriate to contact ESU then that’s what they’ll do, but that’s down to them. You wouldn’t contact Samsung about an iPhone screen issue just because they made the screen. You would contact apple who made the product.

When using cheap decoders I would agree, but using other high end decoders at similar price points should not lead issues. as for the tail lights your right there. Didn’t proof read what I said before driving off for lunch 🤦🏼‍♂️ and re-reading it, I was clearly thinking about a different situation and crossed wires. I’ll admit that was an incorrect statement and I’ll edit the post accordingly.

It’s not mapping the functions that’s the issue. It’s getting certain lights to simply turn on that is. I can customise the function mapping however I want once I’ve got the decoder working. But I’m not able to get essential things like tail lights working currently. stuff like turning tails lights off can be done on any model as long as your decoder can do Swiss mapping. (Incorrect statement) anyways RBE has contacted ESU. I’ll wait for him to respond with their comments

Can you explain then why a decoder that follows the standard, does not work. Again, the decoder in question works fine in other models that also follow NRMA standards. From what I can see, there is not an option with your retailers to order a chip already programmed. You still have to contact the retailer to have it set up. Thats an additional step needed that really shouldn’t be. Being autistic I can’t deal with phone calls to people/company’s I do not know, so that only leaves email for most shops. Which is what If your response to any decoder trouble is ‘just buy a lokpilot’ why can’t you just advertise this before hand anyways. Quite frankly it’s not about missing out on a model from my point of view, as I’d have a class 56 either way. I went for yours due to the extra lighting as I was under the impression any decoder with enough functions would work. Not knowing it was only accessible via ESU. Had I known this, I would’ve considered the Hornby version and upgraded / re-wired the lights myself. Like I said I don’t know which I would’ve picked. But the information should’ve been available before purchase. As great as the details are on your model, it was not a deciding factor for me. I view my models from a. Distance when they’re running, and as such you don’t see all the tiny details the majority of the time. You have done an incredible job with the detail however. I chose to use Zimo in all my models as I know exactly how the decoders perform. And I understand exactly how to change all the functions to my liking. Only exception to that rule is sound fitted stock, as that is expected to perform different anyway. Esu decoders are programmed a different way, and perform differently to Zimo. It’s also a case of if any decoder breaks for any reason, I always have Zimo in stock to swap in. I don’t with Esu, and at the end of the day wanting everything to run off one decoder is not a big ask. It’s actually fairly standard advice given to people before they start DCC. If I could get basic lighting to work I’d be happy, but tail lights are certainly basic lighting. And they don’t want to work. Specific decoders should not be needed for something as simple as tail lights. Other products that require a specific decoder for full functionality state so either in the product description or on the box. That should be the case here too. The irony here is it does exist, PLUX22 has 21 pins, and it’s just one standard. However as had been covered in other threads, it appears ESU do not like to use it. at the end of the day. If it was specified prior to purchase that specific decoders were required for full functionality either as a note on the box, or in the product description online. Then there would’ve been no issue here. Customers should not be purchasing a model that follows a standard, only to be told it needs a certain set up decoder after purchase. If that’s the case advertise it before hand. All that was needed was a simple sentence on the box or in the description such as; “while this model follows the NMRA 21mtc standard, we recommend a pre-programmed esu 59629 (or whatever the decoder is) decoder for full functionality. Other decoders may work however may not operate all advertised functions. To obtain the specified decoder please contact your retailer” If your recommending the decoder anyway if baffles me that this wasn’t on the box and in the product descriptions by default.

Ah right, thats not great on Bachmann’s part either but that’s not the point here. When looking around online I could only find reference to the ESU version. And that was also the only one I could find available for purchase at retailers. Hence my statement of it being an esu chip. If it is indeed a soundtraxx instead then to me that opens up a bigger question of why some do work and others done. Its one standard at the end of the day.

The Zimo decoder I’m using is a MN340C, with CV’s adjusted to enable AUX7/8/9/10. In other models, F0f/r and AUX 1-10 all work fine. In the 56, only F0f/r and AUX 1/2, and AUX 10 work, nothing else. Dip-switches were tried in both esu, and non-esu formations. With the only difference being F8/AUX8 (AUX11 on ESU) had to be turned in for lights to operate. the fact that some outputs work and some don’t in one model, but they all do in other models, certainly points to the issue being with the locos circuit, I don’t think there’s any other way to see that. If I had nothing above AUX 3 where it’s all logic level I’d point it at the decoder, but the fact AUX 10 works fine, and it’s just AUX 3-7 that won’t. Then it’s down to the model. I’ve even tested with a volt meter that the function outputs on the Zimo chip are activating for AUX 3-7, and they all are. However the model is not activating the appropriate lighting. I also tested 4 different MN340C decoders, all to the same result, so that rules out it being a one off with a dodgy decoder too. All of this I’ve stated before and asked if a specific voltage was required. Which went unanswered. Not listed on the diagram above, but when set outputs, switch input IN1 operates as logic level FO10/AUX10 Other manufacturers have managed to supply pre-programmed non-sound decoders for their products also using ESU chips. Having to contact a retailer for a chip to be programmed specifically is an extra step. Multiple other manufacturers who are aware their models need specific sets ups to work correctly provide these decoders, pre-setup as additional products. Which can be purchased just like any other decoder without the need for the customer to contact the retailer so have that specific setup installed. If this was advertised clearly in the product description, and in the box of the model. I’d give in to your reasoning. Granted would not be happy but also would leave it at that. If you want people to you a specific decoder, it needs to be advertised prior to purchase. Personally if I’d known about it I would’ve heavily considered my purchase. Especially of the secound 56. Weather i would’ve decided against I don’t know. But it’s information that should’ve been listed in product descriptions and on the box.

I appreciate this might not be well known. But that’s still an ESU decoder, just with Bachmann branding. So still means an esu decoder is required from what has currently been established. It is not unreasonable for a customer to assume that a model that follows a standard, has already been tested with multiple different brands also following that standard. If you have not tested this with non-ESU decoders, you can not be 100% sure that your model follows the standard accordingly. The issue is I can’t get basic lighting to work with a non-esu decoder that works perfectly fine in other models. If other models didn’t work I’d agree it’s down to the chip. But they do work and yours doesn’t, so it’s not the decoder at fault here. If you can buy the sound decoders at a bulk rate then why can’t you for the standard ones? You’re already committed to a second run so if there’s any sat around they can just be saved for that. If your going to recommend a specific set up, it’s down to you to make sure it’s obtainable with no extra steps compared to a normal decoder.

Is the decoder used here 36-557A? And if not what is the product code of it. No one is expecting you to test every single decoder available, however you should test a selection of the bigger brands available that customers are likely to use. E.G. esu, Zimo, Dapol, and other large brands with a big uk Presence. If you’re going to state your model uses a standard it should be tested with multiple different products from different manufacturers also using the same standard. All I’m trying to establish is why certain decoders don’t work when they do in other models. and if specific decoders are required or even recommended, why are people not informed before they buy the model. If it comes across as confrontational or aggressive, that’s not the intention. It does not help having to ask the same question more than once however. Like I have said, I just want lights to work with Zimo. Every other model I’ve tried works fine. That still doesn’t explain why I was informed differently at model rail Scotland, where I was as polite as I could’ve been simply explaining my problem I was having.

Personally I’m not fussed about the working fans, however headlights, markers and taillights are essential as these are needed for 99.9% of all operations. Cab lights are a nice to have but not a huge problem if they can’t be made to work. However, the only way I could get the basic lighting to work was with ESU, nothing else could get tail lights working. That’s where I have an issue, if I could get Zimo to work the lighting (even as simple as it all working directionally like the Hornby example) then I’d be happy enough and wouldn’t need to take to here and list the problems I’m having. Maybe one post just to help others be informed of the situation but that’s it. so if you guys have a way of getting that set up, or some other way of having tail lights working on other decoders please do let me know. i’d also like to make very clear that the physical detail on the model is some of if not the best on any ready to run loco currently available for the uk market, There’s no doubt or question in that. So much so that if I was a DC modeller id be more than happy with my pair and would recommend it to every man and his dog. It’s purely the DCC set up I’ve got an issue with, especially when models from other manufacturers can take any decoder and have all the lights work provided there’s enough functions on the decoder (granted these use plux22, instead of 21mtc, but the expectation remains the same) as above, if you can specify the exact set up of the dip-switches that allowed you to get tail lights working on non-esu or basic decoders (and if you can specify the decoder used too) then it would be greatly appreciated. At the end of the day I just want head/marker and tail lights that work on a decoder of my choosing. I don’t think that’s a big ask from a model nearing £200.

If that is the case, then why during Model Rail Scotland was I informed by your own team that esu is required to access all function outputs. Before I’d even finished fully explaining the issue I was having. It either is, or it isn’t. Even if it’s just recommended, why isn’t it advertised prior to purchase of the model. as for other decoders, as far as I’m aware only esu and Zimo make decoders that can access upto AUX10. And your model will only work properly work with one. As I’ve documented decently well on this thread, the decoder itself is confirmed to be working in other models and can operate F0f/r, Aux1, Aux2 & Aux10 without issue. However your model won’t respond when the decoder try’s to activate Aux3, Aux4, Aux5, Aux6, or Aux7, despite these working fine in other models. Its all well and good saying other decoders can be programmed to work just like an esu chip, however if there isn’t another decoder that can access all the functions then that point is completely irrelevant. It makes no sense for a manufacturer to recommend a specific decoder set up, but only have this set up available either by special request to a retailer or to have to program it yourself. You’ve purchased and blown sound decoders for sound fitted models, you could do the same with standard DCC ones too. You’ve already gone out of the way to provide the EM and P4 wheels sets which are a much more involved process. Expecting your retailers to provide pre-setup decoders just because they already have the basics for it is not ok. Why should they have to go to the extra hassle of blowing decoders for your model when you don’t even provide them yourself. All your function mapping is doing is reducing the amount of steps needed by the user to get the same result of prototypical lighting. All the lights are on different outputs and as such, can be activated in any way the user wishes (provided their decoder can operate all the functions). Without mapping, if a user wants depot lights, they can turn all the lights off except the two tail light outputs. If they want tail lights on when moving, then that can pick which end they are needed and just turn on them plus the headlights and markers etc. Dapol locos have worked like this for a little while now and can access pretty much all lighting combinations too (I believe only the cab light is determined by a switch inside the model) yes your pre-mapped decoder makes this a simpler process, but the same result is possible without any mapping. What decoder were you using and how were the dip-switches set, as I was only able to get the dip-switches to act as a manual override for either the functions being activated by the decoder, or completely off. there is not a decoder straight out of the box that operates all functions. Even the recommended esu chip would not activate certain functions until programmed. Having to specially request decoders from a retailer is not ‘out of the box’ either. many people will have tried to get other decoders to work as they already have these decoders around, and if they have enough functions then there’s no reason why they shouldn’t work and yet they still don’t. Why is it seen as a bad thing for others to want different decoders to work when you don’t even provide one set for your model. at the end of the day, you’ve brought a model to the market which requires a specific pre-programmed decoder. However you have not provided this decoder yourselves, and are instead expecting your retailers to fill in the gap instead. If you can not provide the decoders yourself like you have for the P4 and EM Gauge wheel sets, then you can not expect your customers to go out of their way to obtain them either.

If ESU decoders are required for full functionality (which they evidently are), they why is this not stated clearly to a customer before the model is purchased. Either in the description or on the box, ideally both. Not everyone is going to be on RMweb, however everyone should be entitled to this information prior to the purchase of the model. You provided P4 and EM Gauge wheel sets as an extra product available through retailers, how is a pre-blown decoder any different to that? The tail lights are set up on separate functions anyway. Having one function button to operate both ends is no different to having both function buttons pressed together on a handset. What do the dip-switches in the model actually change, and what is the basic lighting that can be expected from a fairly standard 6 function chip (F0f/r and AUX 1-4). I spent two evenings trying to get tail lights working on both Zimo and Dapol chips and had no luck in virtually every dip-switch configuration. I would certainly classify taillights under ‘basic lighting’.

Looking at it compared to 66 004 below the horn grill above the cab (I believe that’s the right bit) is a lot less pronounced. But I’m sure the AS team will clarify after MRS this weekend is over.

There were a total of 7 66’s on display Friday. the Freightliner pair; the DB quartet; and a lone GBRf; not sure where the other 2 GBRf ones where, however I believe the DRS example was running over on the gresty bridge tmd layout, however I didn’t get a chance to see myself. Was hoping to see the layouts Sunday but unfortunately that won’t happen now. did manage to have a chat with accurascale’s Fran, and was informed these should be leaving the factory next week or so, with delivery being 6-8 weeks later so around mid to late April. Did also get confirmation that DCC chips will be sold for these like everything else accurascale have made thus far. I did ask a few pages ago but it seems to have been missed, is there a function list for these yet for the lighting features? Any photos of the function card (like the 37’s had) would be greatly appreciated if it’s included on these models too.

Only real down side to plux22 is the decoder interface itself only has 9+2 directional outputs (compared with 10+2directional through the 21mtc interface) as aux 8 is the index pin. However stayalive capabilities is then all direct through the interface for every decoder, and plux16 decoders can work plux 22 locos (minus functions) and vice versa. All of esu’s custom set up stuff tho seems to rely on certain connections on 21mtc. There’s also the fact that it’s harder to bend the pins accidentally on 22Plux (in my experience atleast) as they are on the decoder rather than the model.

Not had any luck with the Zimo decoders, and the fact that the rear cab works but no other logic level functions do. And that also happens to be the one with the biggest change in voltage, I’m starting to think it’s a general incompatibility, especially as the chip works fine in other locos on the same functions. Partially due to this, but also the AS37’s and 10 forthcoming AS 66’s. I’ve fast-tracked getting a DCC base station that will connect with jmri so I can get the specific esu file loaded, as well as being able to change it to my liking. however looking at Lokpilot 5 21pin chips, there seems to be a few different options. I don’t really see the point in paying more for a pre-programmed one as I’ll be changing it all about once I get the basestation and jmri working, but not sure which standard lokpilot is required. Does anyone have the product code or a like to the right one? being completely honest, I’m not massively happy that esu chips are basically required. But I also don’t blame cavalex or accurascale for going to esu for help with the wiring and circuitry. It does however seem like esu have unfortunately taken the opportunity to make the models quite difficult to use without their own decoders. part of me does wonder if it’s part of the reason ESU prefer to use 21 pin rather than plux22 (a more refined and set in stone standard) but that’s a discussion for a different thread and not here. Any help with finding the right standard lokpilot is much appreciated :)

Pretty sure most do, even the gauge master prodigy express 2 (you can’t see what you’ve activated above F12, but you can turn them on and off, just no visual)

There’s always DCC-EX, does require a bit of technical knowledge but it’s all decently well documented and easy to follow. Around about the £50 mark in total for the control and WiFi for phone control too. Can like up to jmri as well.

The latest lok-pilot 5 manual I could find does not cover any cv’s for Swiss mapping. Just a simple couple of sentences that describes what it does. That’s all well and good however it requires more cv’s to be changed and cv indexing etc. it’s another thing to download and figure out how to work. And means you have to be at a computer to work it out. That’s a lot of unnecessary steps. For pre-programmed chips yes, but from a brand new chip into a brand new model that’s not an issue. The model will have outputs assigned to pins, the function mapping on the decoder just changes what pin the decoder sends a signal to from the function signal to. The model knows no different. It seems daunting at first, but it’s not that difficult to swap a couple functions and set up Swiss mapping with Zimo at all. Swapping an aux function to a different button on the controller needs just 1 cv changed per function. So for Swapping F2 to F5, it takes seconds. Swiss mapping then has 6 CV’s per group. For something like F11 turns on tail lights at each end, again it takes about a minute or 2 to do.

The other issue with ESU is you can only really re-map or change detailed CV’s on their chips either via a lok-programmer, or by some other computer interface. Even just to get a list of cv’s you need their software to find what needs to be change. The manual is useless for detailed function mapping zimo on the other hand, near enough every cv is in the manual and can be programmed directly on a controller like the gaugemaster prodigy. No need for a computer but can still be done by one if wanted

The difference here is there’s no need for the extra functions that only ESU can access on this model (neither is there on the AS37 if you actually break down what lights are needed and when) but the model still only seems to accept esu chips. From what I can gather, it seems like the circuit is very picky about the logic level voltage it receives. As the only logic level output the Zimo chip can turn on (F10) is the only one to supply a slightly higher voltage. However all the outputs are giving some voltage. Whether it’s the decoder not giving enough for the standard, the loco not following the standard, or a combination of the two is yet to be determined. But the Zimo chip has no problem with the logic level in a Dapol 68. If manufacturers want to go down the route of using specific ships, that’s fine, but this needs to be specified on the websites that these chips are required for full functionality. Just stating “21pin DCC socket” implies all functions are accessible by any decoder with enough outputs, which is not the case in either the cavalex 56 or the AS 37 (AS37 has more outputs than needed and uses a proprietary set up by esu)