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@DaveClass47 Seeing this video also reminded me of your most recent YouTube video...

Oops, just to be clear... The point I'm modelling is probably going to be 'Thornaby Station' although, I might yet fictionalise things a little because I really want one siding to be a docks. However, 'Thornaby/Tees Valley area in the early 1990s' will be the 'foundational principle' - it started off as a 'Stockton and Darlington Railway in the 1990s' because of my fondness for coal and steel trains and gradually shifted east as I settled on the era I have. I did think about other areas, but they didn't motivate or stick like this has...

I’m trying to create a working timetable from the research I’m doing for a Tees Valley model railway in the early 1990s… 6E09 BSC Shelton - Tees Yard 6N20 Wakefield Cobra - BSC Lackenby 6E21 Hardendale - BSC Lackenby etc Right, so we all know what I mean is that I know already that 6 means a freight train limited to 60mph (different from 1 meaning express passenger and 0 meaning light engine). I know the next character is a letter; E = Eastern, M = Midland, O = Southern, S = Scotland and V = Western for inter-regional trains and Z = excursion/one-off/special (probably the wrong words, but you get the idea) with other letters meaning the destination (I don’t know if this is general or specific), but London is always A for intra-regional trains. 1AXX might a be a Newcastle/Leeds - London express passenger, but even on the same line an Edinburgh - London express passenger would be 1EXX. Likewise on the WCML 1M from Glasgow or 1A from Manchester/Liverpool to London. The Western region is a little different as Cardiff is still considered the Western Region (probably to do with the history, the formation, of Britain/the UK). What does '09' '20' and '21' mean from the freight examples I’ve given above? I’ve thought: Train order (at origin or destination) - I’ve seen this before, but can’t remember where and I don’t know if its train order at origin or destination The path the train operates within (21 is the start of the 21st five minute interval since 6am, for argument’s sake) Route (21 meaning via the ECML and 22, again for argument’s sake, meaning via Hartlepool or vice versa) - this is useful because some of the trains I’m interested in modelling will head over Copy Pit and, well, there is the 'operational challenge' of moving the transformer to act like climbing Copy Pit… I’m trying to work this out because I’d like some structure to my operations and whilst a 1990-94 WTT might not be ideal its better than nothing (otherwise I’d run the same train, the same stock and loco all the time). As I’ve said elsewhere, I’ve chosen this era and location because I like the types of trains and locos etc rather than because this is my stomping ground where I have massive personal experience (because I could see everything because I was working at the station cafe/signal box/head office etc or ‘seeing the railway from my office’) or trainspotting memories of… I’ve looked online to see if I can find a WTT, even one made unofficially, but nothing so far. I know photos of the era are a limited source (being of what interested other people at the time for some unknown reason). I’ll post below of what I have already, so if anyone has something to contribute or correct that’s welcome and fine. The information might be of use to someone else too. The information is readily available in the caption and comment section of Flickr photos, so I figured to use it. I’m also using the photos (as far as possible) to help me with the locomotive used and wagon types and train consists. Unfortunately, I’m not very good at kit-building. There are parts of modelling which I find daunting too, so ‘the general ascetic’ and something on the simpler side is still do-able and still provides a bit of a challenge and/or focus (also, focus stops me ‘buying with my eyes’ every time there is a new release). I’m also a bit more interested in the operational side and how all the little systems fit together. Anyway, the WTT I’ve got (without times), so far: 6E09 BSC Shelton - Tees Yard (someone had pointed out to me that this was 6E34, but 09 was the one I found) 1Z15 Tyne Tees Wanderer (Birmingham - Tees Dock - Hartlepool - Birmingham) 6N20 Wakefield Cobra - BSC Lackenby 6E21 Hardendale - BSC Lackenby 6E28 Wolverhampton Steel Terminal - BSC Lackenby 6E30 Dalzell - BSC Lackenby 6E31 Wolverhampton Steel Terminal - BSC Lackenby 6Z39 BSC Shelton - Tees Yard 6E34 BSC Shelton - Tees Yard 6E40 BSC Corby - BSC Lackenby 6E41 Blackburn - BSC Lackenby 6E43 Hardendale - BSC Lackenby 6E47 Cardiff Tidal Yard - Tees Yard 6N54 Redmire - BSC Redcar MT 6N67 Wakefield Cobra - BSC Lackenby 6M01 BSC Lackenby - Wolverhampton Steel Terminal 6M05 BSC Lackenby - Wolverhampton Steel Terminal 6M13 Tees Yard - BSC Shelton 6M41 BSC Lackenby - Hardendale 6M46 BSC Redcar MT - Hardendale 6M47 BSC Lackenby - BSC Corby 4D50 Wilton - Felixstowe 6M51 BSC Lackenby - Blackburn 6N53 BSC Redcar MT - Redmire 6M58 BSC Lackenby - Blackburn 6V64 Tees Yard - Margam 6V64 Tees Yard - Cardiff Tidal 6M71 BSC Lackenby - BSC Workington 4L79 Wilton - Felixstowe 6Z95 BSC Lackenby - BSC Corby There were passenger services too. 1E/1Mxx (Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough/return) as well as Bishop Auckland/Newcastle - Saltburns and their returns. I read a BBC article from 2019 about how Redcar (British Steel) is the least used in Britain/England. From videos I've watched of the era the passenger trains look regularly less than even half-full with barely anyone on the station platforms. If stuff is missing its because I don’t know and don’t like ‘making it up’ (I then go too far and I can get too extreme and I become a bit silly). The idea is to run 6E09 then 1Z15 then 6N20 and so on. Once the westbounds are finished I can then move on to the eastbounds and repeat. As I said, elsewhere on this forum, on other threads “The working timetable information, whilst taken (I don't believe the people who shared the information on Flickr were deliberately out to deceive me) and now shared in good faith, could be wrong. I've mostly learnt it from the captions of photographs. Unverified, second-hand information, isn't the best. However, the information does seem to be consistent across multiple people… I realise now that I might have seen 'BSC Shelton - Tees Yard' and just assumed same train = same headcode etc”. A tip before I go, for those who don't already know, the best results I've found when searching for train photos on Flickr is to use something like 'Tees Yard - Margam'. Not everything is relevant for me, but that's because I have probably more precise criteria than Flickr's algorithm. However, I'm usually able to tell either from the photo quality (I can tell between a negative/slide scan and a digital photo as well as from the locos and/or stock if a photo is relevant or not). I just don't do a date search because some photos were scanned two years ago, say, but taken in 1991 - sometimes Flickr takes the date of the file not the photo. Most of all, I want to make my layout interesting rather than ‘whooosh!’. Anyway, apologies for going on for so long. As one friend always tells me, I explain things too much. I’m not very good at communicating and think when I type. Also, one thought triggers another and I get a bit tangled in my thoughts. I’ve also now written bits of this in other posts, so I thought maybe I should just ask for help. I can bring it together in one simple, but over-explained question!

Sorry - I got confused between 6M34 (Lackenby -Corby loaded), 6E34 (your point here) and 6E40 (Corby - Lackenby empties) in my previous post... Thanks for the correction/help/pointing it out.

Thanks for that. Shelton/Etruria are roughly interchangeable when talking about steel works, but I'm nit picking (I don't do it deliberately, but I just like to be as precise as possible). I thought 6E34 was Corby - Lackenby empties. Sorry, I missed that off my list when I was compiling the list for the OP and others. I'm not saying you're wrong because codes can change. I realise now that might have seen 'Corby - Lackenby empties' and just assumed same train = same headcode etc. That reminds me - I should also look up the meaning of the headcodes (I know what a headcode is and their constituent parts as well as the first two characters, but I don't really understand the latter part)...

Stocksbridge - yes, I missed that one. Well, the whole Don Valley really. I was tempted by a Sheffield area, but can't really find any information on trains during the early 90s. Perhaps those steel works were more workshops where finished steel would be turned into a final product rather than a finishing-process plant, say, like Shotton. I'm surprised because I remember seeing, several times from the train, the giant blue warehouses on the left of the line going into Sheffield from the North/East... Plus the added attraction of creating an export/import port with an Immingham/Teesside model. I did think about Boston/Ellesmere/Gladstone/Mostyn Docks as a basis just because of the size of space I've got too - enough for 12 HAA/TTAs or 6 BBA/TEAs + loco in a head shunt and another head shunt. That said, my Dad says '5=8 coaches' due a lack of space. Mine would be more like 1=3 possibly 4/5 wagons. Only now, I'm liking Copy Pit as well. Lackenby - Blackburn/Return steel trains and the 'operational challenge' of moving the transformer to act like climbing Copy Pit. I've also thought about Mirfield/West Yorkshire, that sort of area. However, I do like shorter freight trains with mixed wagons (not every steel train, even from/to Teesside, was the 28 wagons of https://www.flickr.com/photos/151904976@N08/45484925034). I know. I'm indecisive as you can probably tell. The only things I've really settled on is: - The era (early 1990s) - Layout design (a 15x6 tail chaser, with two siding, so I can have from/to journeys for my freights - one siding to be a dock) - I'm not all that fussed about passenger trains, but I'd like to run my locos from childhood and I inherited from my Uncle as specials (I even saw on Flickr a photo of 31 hauling a football excursion from Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Sunderland) - Gauge/Scale = OO largely to do with the point above, but I could also say it's a 'reasonable' compromise between size/price/detail... Admittedly, my layout is more about my fondness for and interest in coal and steel trains rather than an affinity for a particular area. I like freights. I like secondary routes. Think more 'interesting' than 'whoosh'. I know as well that I can still combine things too. Just put it down to a moment of panic and peak or weakness because I realised "having this means I can't have that, but that would still be interesting to me". Anyway, sorry, I'll stop waffling/thinking as I'm typing (not least because I'm taking the thread off topic).

'...anything goes, home grown or foreign, ancient or bang up to date, whether it be a brief snatch of something passing by in the background or with the railway as a central feature...' I think the real point of this thread is "I saw that film/tv show too. I did/didn't enjoy it." Conversation starts. "Are you going to this model railway exhibition/want to see my model railway/go for a drink/whatever? I had a bad day/need some help/I'm lonely :'(/would like to meet you ." We all come here for the shared interest of railways and modelling railways (perhaps a bit of general modelling too), but some might come/stay for more than just that.

The steelworks I can remember from memory are: Cardiff Tidal, Clydesdale, Corby, Dalzell, Hartlepool, Irlam, Lackenby, Llanwern, Port Talbot, Ravenscraig, Redcar, Scunthorpe, Shelton, Shotton, Skinningrove, Treforma and Workington. However, I am aware there were iron and steel works in the South Wales valleys (one at Ebbw Vale and Merthyr Tydfil for a start). These operate at different points as well as having different purposes by 'my era'. There are steel terminals too - Wakefield and Wolverhampton as well as another in the West Midlands, but I can't remember its name right now. There are probably others I've not mentioned. I'll share with you some of the information I've been able to obtain (I'm trying for an 'early 1990s Thornaby/Tees Docks' model railway, so steel traffic is important...) and the following are trains I've been able to identify: 6M01 BSC Lackenby - Wolverhampton Steel Terminal 6M05 BSC Lackenby - Wolverhampton Steel Terminal 6M13 Tees Yard - BSC Shelton 6M47 BSC Lackenby - BSC Corby 6M51 BSC Lackenby - Blackburn 6M58 BSC Lackenby - Blackburn 6M71 BSC Lackenby - BSC Workington 6Z95 BSC Lackenby - BSC Corby 6E09 BSC Shelton - Tees Yard 6E28 Wolverhampton Steel Terminal - BSC Lackenby 6E30 Dalzell - BSC Lackenby 6Z39 BSC Shelton - Tees Yard 6E40 BSC Corby - BSC Lackenby 6E41 Blackburn - BSC Lackenby These trains were comprised of a variety of wagons: BAA, BBA, BDA (sometimes with RRA 'runner' wagons), IHA, KIA, POA/SSA and SPA. Then there are the Cargowaggon flats and vans (sometimes used for other trains as well). Some trains were block formations of all the same wagons. Some trains were a mixture and/or never in the same wagon formation on two consecutive trips. I've even seen photos of hopper wagons on steel trains. Presumably a cripple wagon to be tripped to a wagon repair facility or an 'out of place' wagon from its diagram for a similar reason to be tripped back to the marshalling yard. However, as you might be able to see there is at least one freight I've left out (due to not being able to find it, but it would be 6S?? BSC Lackenby - Dalzell). Then there are the trains serving the steel works: 6E21 Hardendale - BSC Lackenby 6E43 Hardendale - BSC Lackenby 6N54 Redmire - BSC Redcar MT 6M41 BSC Lackenby - Hardendale 6M46 BSC Redcar MT - Hardendale 6N53 BSC Redcar MT - Redmire Unlike Scunthorpe and the Scottish steel works, raw materials were largely transported by ship and put directly into the blast furnace from the ship (or something like that). I'm not sure what the situation was at Port Talbot. This is why there isn't quite the same procession of bulk minerals (coke, iron ore and limestone) through Tees Yard as there is through Barnetby. The working timetable information, whilst taken (I don't believe the people who shared the information on Flickr were deliberately out to deceive me) and now shared in good faith, could be wrong. I've mostly learnt it from the captions of photographs. Unverified, second-hand information, isn't the best. However, the information does seem to be consistent across multiple people. I'm not a railway expert. I'm also not all that fussed as, whether false or true, the working timetable information has given me an ordered operational framework. Anyway, I'll stop waffling and I hope this helps.

Pretty much at the start...

Just been streaming Billions (Series Four) and saw a train in the background...

As I said to a friend today: 'I learnt from Capa who said two things: "f1.4 and be there" and "If you call yourself an artist you'll never get an assignment. It's best to call yourself a photojournalist and do what you like." It's the case that the best camera is the camera you own, the second best camera is the best camera you can afford, the third best camera is the best camera produced at any given time.'

Former BR privately owned 08 shunters were operated by companies at Trafford Park as well (at the time of this video).

Just posting a video that reveals a private scrap yard using a former BR loco. The loco/yard is at around 40-45mins if you want to skip. That's the only one I've watched so far, but will probably watch the other videos for researching my own model railway (I've seen some short videos which gave limited information about destinations etc of steel trains from/to the North East).

Sorry. I hid away from it all when I made a flop at trying to build my first two. I have about five more kits to try with. The only thing I think I got right was the Railfreight Orange - I was going to use the original colours as 'primer' and have weathering to go over.

The Sopranos... Also, there's a recent documentary about the 'Redoubt Nation' in the USA by The Times which had some general footage with a train in.

https://www.class37.co.uk/fleet.aspx?strnumber=37714 is a resource of information for people wanting to know a little more detail about the locomotive. I can't believe its exhaustive detail, but does give a guide to its locations, pools and the types of train it hauled.

"In #2 the narrator says that the Indian government ran an experiment in combining four trains into one train."

In #2 the narrator says that the Indian government ran an experiment in combining four trains into one train. I personally don't know what is wrong with 30-36 HAAs and a Class 56 at the front...

Apologies - my laptop doesn't let me post anything with SPG mistakes, so when I pressed 'reply' and it didn't post I didn't realise I was posting (hence the two different posts which is due to thinking and then overthinking). Anyway, it's not meant to be a double and just wanted to point that out.

Well, the one locomotive I think of immediately is the Class 20 that was (still might be) used for the cement works in the Hope Valley. Having had a quick skim through the thread, it doesn't appear to have been mentioned. Given I saw it in 2004 it was, probably, privatised along with the rest. I just don't know when/if it was bought by or leased to the cement works for shunting. Former BR locos sold in BR days are the J94s used at the collieries/mines/pits between Bolton and Manchester (Bickershaw was one colliery, but I can't remember the name of the other(s) in the area) and were operating as late as the 1970s. Like the other examples mentioned they were sold to the coal board, but the precise level at which they were sold I'm not aware of (the national coal board or regional area board and sent to Bickershaw or by the colliery on an ad-hoc basis because they had specific needs to be met). There are other potential examples (owned/used by British Steel especially), but I can't say with any certainty what their ownership history is.

Well, the one locomotive I think of immediately is the Class 20 that was (still might be) used for the cement works in the Hope Valley. Having had a quick skim through the thread, it doesn't appear to have been mentioned. Given I saw it in 2004 it was, obviously, privatised along with the rest (I just don't know if it was bought by or leased to the cement works for shunting). I would also suggest having a look at the ownership records of the British Steel locomotives used on their exchange sidings and/or internal railways. Oil refineries too, like at Stanlow, probably had their own locos too. Some might have been BR to private user, but some may have been built specifically for industrial use. Former BR locos sold in BR days are the J94s used at the collieries/mines/pits between Bolton and Manchester (Bickershaw was one colliery, but I can't remember the name of the other(s) in the area) and were operating as late as the 1970s. Like the other examples mentioned they were sold to the coal board, but the precise level at which they were sold I'm not aware of (the national coal board or regional area board and sent to Bickershaw or by the colliery on an ad-hoc basis because they had specific needs to be met).

Yeah, I did think after I posted back to a video I saw about 37s being coupled together at Thornaby to reduce faffing about for another loco should one loco fail when one loco fails on a train that needed double-heading... I'm doing research for a Teesside layout during the early 1990s, so I wanted to see if there was any extra footage of Sunderland-Lindsey (and Lindsey-Sunderland) oil trains which ran through my (admittedly very flat) triangle of Darlington, Stockton and Middlesborough. I came across that the South Yorkshire/Lincolnshire video during that process and thought that it might qualify for the thread. I said what I said to show I'm possibly making a mistake, but also not just posting erroneous things like cow pictures (as amusing as they are)... My post quoting the picture of the 20 and a wagon with the railway workers in it was meant to be a (admittedly cheesy) joke. Anyway, I didn't realise the three 37s were going east (probably the first clue that I was probably wrong).

There's probably a lot you could do for that area. I'm looking into this area myself (some sort of triangle roughly laid over the area of Stockton, Middlesborough and Hartlepool) and was just about to post a couple of questions myself, but then I saw you asking a question. I'm better at ideas than at identification or prototypical precision. How about a very small part, the throat say, of Tees Yard? I've seen one or two moddlers use a mirror to give the impression of a larger/longer yard too. Then there are trip workings and if you're doing a yard you have the potential for the 08s to be shunting whilst a 37 ticks over waiting for its train. I'm not sure because I'm not sure how you wish to use your layout - as an at-home hobby of interest or to hopefully use on the exhibition . If its the 'at home' thing, then do as you wish, but I get there is a sense of achievement and craft in realism too. For an exhibition, yes, there are higher standards. However, even then you can 'fictionalise' and have a smaller factory of some sort and base it on a particular area. I realise you are going for something prototypical, so I'm not suggesting 'anything goes' and have Class 90s not being dragged with no OHLE hauling 6-plank wagons and Mk5s at the same time. I am suggesting that there is a creative tolerance and much is dependent on how loose/tight you want your realism to be. It might even be worth having a look in the 'prototype for everything' thread and seeing if there is something you didn't realised happened actually happened and let your creativity flow from there. There were shortish potash trains from Cleveland which trundle through Thornaby, shortish engineers trains which hauled by 37217 in BR Blue as late as 1994. Go a little North of Thornaby and there is potential for Aluminium from/to Alcan at Blyth ("Born in Blyth, but made in the navy" lol). Again, they're not massive trains and whilst I'm not sure when the Potash trains started I know the Alcan trains were operating in the 1960s and later. I chose Teesside because it best represents what I like about railways - coal and steel trains from/to ports as well as a bit of variety from the intermodal, oil, potash and salt trains. Plus there's the history of the Stockton and Darlington - as half joked with my Dad "Stockton and Darlington values in a modern setting" 'lol'. I am going to have to compromise somewhat myself due to space and liking OO more than N. Well, okay, not every train was 20 BBAs long and I can scale up. I can also operate some classic locomotives (37s, 47s, 56s and 60s). That also works for South Wales (especially the Cardiff and Newport areas). Perhaps it could just be 'an area with the commanding heights of heavy industry somewhere in the UK near a coast and/or river' (a bit like the Alistair McGowan joke of Eastenders "a pint of non-specific, please Peg"). One reason I chose a specific area at a specific time is because it stops me buying everything I might want just because I want it and to improve some of my skills connected with the hobby.