Natalie

Hi In a word yes. The prescence or not of yellow panels and full yellow ends can affect the perception of the colour. The original method of spraying apparently wasn't gloss varnished and appeared matt. Seemingly the matt finish did not stand up well so the blue was soon changed to be applied by brush again and then gloss varnished which made it appear a little darker. The JBs were delivered at a time when the corporate image was the big thing. They were delivered as part of the Southern's flagship scheme, the Bournemouth scheme so it is logical that the new locos would carry the new corporate image rather than an 9 year old livery like electric blue especially as they were also to carry the new double arrow emblem. The REPs,VEPs and TC delivered as part of the new scheme came out in matt rail blue too. One or two of the preserved 73s have been painted in electric blue and they don't replicate the early JB blue livery to me. One of the most accurate recreations was that applied to 73136 'Perseverance' with its blue being gloss rail blue.

The caption says E6012 but the number is clearly E6018. The same picture is also in Marsden's Power of the Electro Diesels a little larger. This is a great volume for early livery shots as it was published just prior to large logo-I think. Marsden hadn't started his "JBs were electric blue" fantasy yet so correctly states that the JBs were delivered in Rail Blue.

Reminds me of the first time that I drove in that far off continent. I was 19 and we had a chalet booked at Centre Parcs' De Eemhoff. You were eased in gently into the joys of Dutch roads as soon as you drove off the overnight ferry at Hoek van Holland. However within an hour or so whilst driving along the motorway I suddenly found myself slap bang in the middle of the Rotterdam morning rush hour traffic. What had been a fairy straightforward 3 lane motorway-albeit being on the wrong side of the road- without warning became a 10 lane carriageway with other motorways merging and interchanging alongside on both sides and what felt like above and below too. Worst of all my lane suddenly became part of a different motorway with the lane I needed about 8 lanes away through the path of multitudes of german high performance cars. To cap it all off in order to keep up with the traffic flow I was tanking it along at a ton of mph. The speed limit was actually 100kmph but you would never have guessed- it appeared to be advisory rather than mandatory. Yet still I got bibbed and flashed at by germans in a black bmw or mercedes right up my a*se to get out of their way.. Absolute maniacs. The next time I went to Holland I filled a priv box in as well as an International one for NS and paid £2.50 each way port tax. That was a whole more civilised way of doing things than joining a Grand Prix with German drivers on the roads of Holland. Right then, eyelids are drooping which means that either I'm having a TIA or CVA or it is time for sleep. What a waste of the dark and outside silence. Night owl,

Thanks. Being an officially certificated card carrying lunatic I think I shall fit in. Beginning to get quite comfy already.

That is a new one for me- and I have heard lots having worked in A & E and a male prison.

I've been called worse. :-)

Sorry it's me again with some more mindless drivel. Firstly thanks for the welcomes. Nothing exciting in the skies here in the middle of Middle England However the road outside is filled with the usual excess of two-wheeled motorised cycles with seemingly blown exhaust silencers who appear to occupy their time by screaming up and down continuously. They don't even appear to do it to see how far it is.Then there are the apparent jet engined cars which shake the windows much to the displeasure of Our Creatures. Well the time approaches of the great chase the pig's bladder around the grass occasion. God help the reaction off the local drunken oafs if England don't get through. But then again god help the reaction off the local drunken oafs if they do. One thing is certain though. My team will be supplying at least one player to captain their country in The Final. Here's hoping it is both sides. Now back to playing Rope with Minnie the Mop. Terrible cheat and not at all sporting. Anything goes when doggie rules are in force. Enjoy the game if you are watching or whatever else you find yourself getting up. Im just pleased to be able to breathe properly without a tight chest or eyes stinking from 'glow' and definitely not perspiration.

Hi to everyone I reckon that it is about time I came out from hiding in the bushes. Thanks to Kelly showing me how to connect this phone to the wifi I have been nosing about like never before. It has been so much easier and quicker to get involved in browsing than if I have had to fire up the laptop. I have been introduced to Early Risers-something that I am not, preferring to sleep by day and lurk at night. I have been introduced to Ben the Border Collie and the saga of the water leak. The fact that I am a nosey cow keeps me coming back to see how things are getting on. And I am going to have to admit it. I'm hooked. Mother reckons that I have turned into one of those individuals who I have routinely viewed with amazement. I appear now to have joined the ranks of those who go out and then walk around all day peering at their screen. Fairly accurate but I have not actually been outside since this sunny weather started. My defence is that I am allergic to ultraviolet light- which I am-and it is nothing to do with the fact that being outside causes great anxiety. All I need now is to share a bit of me. I shall introduce you all to Deefor- aka The Teddy Bear Dog- who is a black and tan lakeland terrier. Then there is our Black Beast- Minnie the Mop a Patterdale terrier. Finally is our matriarch the Ginger Winger herself Bracken the Dog, a red staffie cross ridgeback. It is thanks to her that I overcame my fear of dogs (as did Kelly but that is her story).That is enough from for now with apologies for going on for so long. I'll open it up to the floor now if there are questions.

Hi Lee As I put in the DEMU forum, the news of David's passing is both shocking and unexpected and someone who I'll never forget, if only for his actions in stabilising the role of DEMU Membership Secretary after he took over from me and I had left it in a bit of awry due to personal issues at the time. He was supportive and never apportioned blame on me for the extra work that I had inadvertently caused him. He played a huge art in helping DEMU growing to become the Society it is today. I hope to be able to publish a tribute to David in the next issue of Update (No 88) and would like to invite any memories that people who knew him would like to share. Rest well David, a true gentleman.

Hi Are these any use? They are the repaint dates for the Phase 1 units which were sent to me by John Atkinson, one of the compilers of the articles on blood and custard.com. All of the Phase 1 4CIGs (7301-7336) and the Phase 1 4BIGs (7031-7048) were delivered in BR green with small yellow panels in the lower half of the cab gangway door. They were the last SR units to be delivered in green. Phase 2 units were all delivered in blue/grey with full yellow ends. The late delivery at the very end of the green era meant that no CIG or BIG received plain blue. A number of units did receive full yellow ends to their green livery- 7301 29-7-67 7303 8-3-67 This unit had wrap round full yellow ends which extended around the cabside to the edge of the cab door 7304 20-4-67 7320 9-5-67 The first unit to lose green was 7319 on 18-9-67 The last unit to lose green (with full yellow ends) was 7301 on 17-3-70 The last unit to lose green (with small yellow ends) was 7302 on 26-10-70 7301 17-3-70 7302 26-10-70 7303 12-6-70 7304 12-8-70 7305 24-10-67 7306 27-11-67 7307 3-68 7308 11-67 7309 6-1-68 7310 8-4-68 7311 24-7-68 7312 3-10-68 7313 18-9-67 7314 31-10-68 7315 31-1-69 7316 17-11-68 7317 1-8-69 7318 23-4-69 7319 c18-8-69 7320 29-9-70 7321 28-5-69 7322 9-69 7323 18-5-70 7324 13-3-69 7325 by4-70 7326 4-9-69 7327 10-2-70 7328 16-8-68 7329 12-6-69 7330 22-11-69 7331 17-4-70 7332 by6-70 7333 16-7-70 wdn 7334 5-1-70 7335 6-10-69 7336 10-67 For completeness, the first and and last into blue/grey for the Phase 1 BIGs (7031-48). None carried full yellow ends on their green or any of the plain blue variants- 7035 2-8-67- Ist blue/grey unit on Central Division 7047 by 11-70- Last BIG into blue/grey Additionally I have a large number of detail shots of the BIG that was on the GCR before they decided to sell it for scrap and modification. Hope the above is helpful. Please shout if you require anymore details of the other liveries- such as both types of Jaffa Cake..

Hi This illustrates nicely the fact that you should not proof read your own work. I have read this document many many times and had not noticed the error in MA300 formation until now, so many thanks for identifying it (you found one in the sleeper formations too in that I missed out a circuit of seating vehicles!) Looking in the 1986/87 LMR PTM I can confirm that that the Mk2d TSO should in fact be a Mk2d BSO (or AE2D as the book shows- I didn't think that many would be as familiar with the TOPS POIS codes as the traditional ones), the D designation being as the PTM states "On this Marshalling Circular, D refers to Mk2D/E or F" . Incidentally the Mk3a or Mk3b stock is referred to as such. The allocation details I refer to came from the Platform 5 Coaching Stock book for the period, but even so found that according to the PTM there were more Mk3b FOs allocated to trains than existed... Finally would it be useful if I added to each circuit number the locations the sets worked to? I won't be able to add the exact service as there are simply too many of them, the document I wrote (ten years ago now ) shows the London-based services and runs to 38 pages. It is available to download on Robert Carroll's excellent BRCS yahoo site which anybody with a serious interest in BR coaching stock and its workings should be a member of. I can also, if asked by individuals, send them a copy of the pdf but note that I am about to embark on a minor rewrite to eliminate some errors (such as that with MA300's formation)/ rewrite certain parts before doing the missing sections dealing with Inter Regional trains and non London Intra Regional trains.

Jest you may but just try being in an exhibition (ie at breakdown) after it has closed to the public without the correct badge on. One location I can think of has individuals that act as though Tornado officers.

Aaargh- stop giving Kelly (D827) ideas, she has enough deadly ones as it is...

PLEASE PLEASE I beg you- do not give Kelly (D827) any ideas regarding her contraption mobility scooter. She is enough of a menace with it as it is. Sitting in there barking out orders as though Davros. One time I am going to wrap a giant sheet of silver foil covered with upside down silver covered egg box cups around the scooter... Following an 'incident' at the Warley show a few years ago when the scooter went berserk and randomly decided to quadruple its maximum speed and take on a life of its own, narrowly missing stands and layout leaving millions (well one or two) of terrified showgoers to run for their lives. Said chair was cornered and with indecent haste a keyectomy was performed (no time for an anaesthetic or sedation) on it, a red 'not to go card' applied and said disgraced scooter was hidden away in the unused portion of the hall. It was last seen being freewheeled along the walkway back to International station and coaxed up a ramp into a Pendolino and its ultimate fate... Ever since this incident there has been what I can only describe as a campaign to kill me by the scooter's younger leaner replacement. Any chance it gets it will strike, run over my feet, back into my shins, rip my back in half trying to lift its power source. So now I give scooters the respect that they tell me that they deserve- such as address it as "Your Majesty". But should there ever be a scooter jousting occasion- it is best just to watch from afar and not get involved. Scooters have long memories and never never forget.

The RUB coaches were fitted with the same seats as in the Mk3a FO- ie orange. They were arranged in 2+1 layout first class style and spacing within the saloon area and were intended for dining car use only- hence being unclassified and not being counted within the train's seating capacity. In later year c1985 the seats were reclassified as first class with the vehicles receiving a new code of RFB. Externally the saloon door had a '1' applied and some- though not all- had a yellow first class cantrail stripe applied over the saloon. If I remember correctly the length of the red/yellow cantrail stripes differed on the loco-hauled Mk3a RUB/RFB from that applied to the HST TRUB/TRFB (not just the thickness.)

In addition to the immensely irritating 'so' and 'like' there are a few others things that really grate. Starting a sentence with 'I mean..' and the constant dropping of '..ly' at the end of a word- ie 'I did fantastic' instead of 'I did fantastically', Finally is one that is well known to anyone who listens to speech radio for any period of time and that is the copious use of 'you know' throughout sentences. I once counted one caller to a late night show using this phrase 46 times throughout the call- yep I'm sad I know but counting them stops me cutting my wrists. I wonder if this is something that bothers people once they reach a certain age- do you lose your inhibitions in such things as you get older- I know I seem to be. but then I am naturally a miserable cow anyway. ;-) Trouble is once you have heard these oral aberrations then you do tend to notice them more.

Hi As mjkerr has already explained a number of Mk3b FOs had a BT payphone fitted. This was fitted in place of the luggage racks at one end only. The window in this area was a single pane of glass as GordonC has recalled. I think a small number of HST TFs were also similarly payphone fitted. Use was intended to be in Pullman and Executive sets- with usually one FO being a payphone fitted example. The usual spotting books at the time listed which vehicles were fitted. Not all the vehicles branded as Pullmans were so fitted- as shown in the link above. The Spring 1987 Edition (correct to 3rd January 1987- tenth edition) of Platform 5's 'Coaching Stock Pocket Book' lists the following as payphone fitted: 11083- 11101 all Mk3b FOs with 11083- 11094 branded as Pullmans. In addition to the integral tail lights Mk3b stock (FO and BFO) also had an HST-style square vent on the roof above the the end vestibules. Hope the above if of some help.

Very much enjoyed this layout at Leamington. One of the finest 2mm scale layouts that I have ever seen. The signalling is exquisite- especially the WORKING subsidiary and route indicator. The control panel diagram is quite impressive too. Very much captures the atmosphere of the place that a lot of people think that it is a model of- which of course it isn't- just inspired by. The lighting looked good as well. I would like to thank the very friendly crew who kindly let me around the back and take some photos and of their sequence details. The display featuring the details of the train at the time was also very interesting being a digital photo frame with corresponding photos. Look forward to seeing this fine layout sometime soon- likely to be at Hinckley. Modelling at its finest and a logical and coherent scene presented. Natalie

Please forgive my ignorance in not knowing a huge amount about GR coaches except the ML&City stock of various flavours but I'm pretty there that there was a non-corridor 3rd in the six Toplight ML&City sets. In fact I am looking at a picture of one right now (well I think I am :-) ) in John Lewis' excellent article on 'London Local C Trains' in GWRJ No 20- of 3910 (part of Local C Set no 5) at Reading. According to the article for the six sets built there were twelve C37 vehicles nos 3901-12 allowing for two in each set. I can recommend this article to read for any interested in these fine coaches. As an aside don't forget that the ML&City stock in all its versions (4 wheel, 48' Toplight and 48' artic sets) was regularly hauled by Metropolitan Railway electric locos between Paddington and Aldgate. A set of the Toplights might tempt all those who have bought Heljan's model of the so-called MetVic rebuilds and need something authentic to run behind them. Two sets of the 4 wheelers were loaned to the Met in the late 1910s/early 1920s to help with a severe stock shortage on the Met and were used between the City, Baker Street and Uxbridge (Belmont Road for want of a better description). Good luck with your survey and hope that something positive is the result.

I was working in Polesworth box at the time and the 91s were a fairly regular sight as they came off the delivery line at Crewe. They were delivered to Bound's Green under their own power via the Trent Valley, up the WCML and over to the NLL as you say so it is likely that your photo depicts this move.

Hi Andrew Have been following your posts with interest- especially the 1951 Pullmans. Re No 310 Pegasus when removed from the Golden Arrow it was transferred to the LMR for operation on the 'Night Limited; between Euston and Glasgow Central working up and down on alternate days opposite MetCamm M354E. I have seen a pic of it/her at Glasgow Central shortly after transfer still carrying Pullman umber/cream with the legend "The Nightcap Bar" on roof/cantrail boards. As far as I am aware it retained this livery until it was repainted into its version of standard blue/grey (including the doors) with a full length red catering stripe. It was branded 'Nightcap Bar' on the left bodyside in white corporate BR lettering. I don't think that it would have been in reverse grey/blue at anytime as it went to the LMR still umber/cream and only the SR painted any Pullman Car Co stock in that version- and then only 3 before it was deemed too awful and the lined blue/grey version appeared. However I do like the grey/blue so it will be interesting to see what Pegasus would have looked like in that livery. Keep up the good work. (PS Assume that you are a member of BRCS on yahoo-RWPC's group- and have seen Keith Gunner's two monachrome shots of M310E at Wolverton Works already?)

Just a brief answer or the moment- I can elaborate further if you wish. This is all off the top of my head atm so apologies if I have introduced any errors inadvertently. The GWR ran trains from such places as Windsor, Hayes and Uxbridge Vine Street to Aldgate and Liverpool Street. Because of a restricted loading gauge- height wise I believe- special stock was provided. It was marshalled into sets of 8, 9 or 10 vehicles depending on their service. These were four wheel coaches with a length of about 25ft over buffers. A characteristic feature was the round tops to the doors- as per later Met coaches and GER stock. This feature I believe stems from (James? )Holden's pen when he was 'something to do with carriages' for the GWR and was also perpetuated on his GER stock. It is said that this design was to prevent damage to the top of the door if it was opened within a tunnel. The sets were known as Main Line and City stock. They were also used on other GWR operated standard gauge services such as the Middle Circle and Aldersgate (Moorgate) to Richmond via H&C and (Hammersmith) The Grove as well as the H&C line proper. Loco wise Metro tanks with condensing gear were used. For some basic details about the stock take a look at: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nocity.html and for some drawings and more details on GWR Short coaches at: http://www.penrhos.me.uk/ShortCoachesIntro.shtml At electrification in 1905 the stock was displaced from the H&C services but lingered on for a short period on the other services until the services were withdrawn or cut back. They did however remain on the Outer Suburban services to Aldgate. Electric loco haulage with Met locos was used from Bishop's Road eastwards, steam continuing west to there. Over the 1920s (which confirm the dates later) the 4 wheeled stock was withdrawn and replaced by new steel bogied stock in 9 6-car sets, 3 sets being articulated. The bogie sets were knowns as 'local C sets.' Some of the redundant 4 wheels were loaned to the Met in c1920 to help out with a severe stock shortage and were used on Met services from Baker Street to Harrow and Uxbridge- these were hauled by the Met's own electric locos. Also during the 1920s the 20 original Met locos were replaced by 20 new locos (as per Heljan model...) and they took over the electric leg of the journey. In later years the service was cut back to Liverpool Street where it reversed in the bay platform. The service was a casualty of WW2 service reductions and was temporarily suspended. It was an interesting service and also provided the sight of 4 electric locos running light from Neasden to Bishop's Road each morning ready to take over up trains. I have a lot of info, times etc on this service (as well as some of the other GWR operated ones) and can recommend an article by John Lewis in issue no 20 of 'Great Western Journal'. Issue 55 of the same journal has a similar article on 'Local Coach Formations and Workings' by John Copsey. Hope the above helps. If you want further details then let me know and I shall start a new topic.

In all my time researching the Met I have never come across this double line goods tunnel at the east end of Bishop's Road but would like to be proved wrong. There certainly was no signalled connections between Bishop's Street and Praed St Junc. There was a short loco spur at the east end of BishRd which was adjacent to plat 16 and essentially in tunnel. It dated from the rebuilding of Bishop's Road into Paddington Suburban in 1932-33 (can't remember date off hand sorry) and was used to hold the Met electrics that were used to take over the GWR Main Line and City trains to Aldgate and Liverpool Street until the service was suspended in 1939 as a result of WW2. It is possible that the tunnel continued beyond but without track. Is there anything in the series on Paddington station that was published in GWJ- I don't have access to my copies atm so can't check. I do have signal diagrams of the boxes - as 2 plat Bishop Road and 4 platform Paddington Suburban but both are SRS versions so I shall redraw them before I can post them. I also have a plan that was part of the Paddington resignalling scheme contract submission by SGE which has Bishop's Road as having a new powerbox- on stilts/girders- of its own rather than as subsequently happened in that a separate slide frame was put into Arrival box for the Suburban section (known as Paddington Suburban. I will try and post the relevant pics of this. Think I shall have a nose through my copy of Metropolitan Railway by Jackson and see what I can find...

It is a pity that Dapol have used the wrong number font for this livery- they should be Rail alphabet whereas the model has the elongated diesel style applied to green diesels. Ironically this was one of the few models shown in the recent painted samples that did NOT have a livery error- but now it does. I know some people might reckon that this is just nitpicking but it is should not be difficult to use the correct type- it is not as though the locos concerned in this livery were rare or from a long time ago. There were 42 which carried this style (including those with rail grey band) and there are numerous photos both colour and monochrome on both the internet and in books. Come on Dapol please take care in making sure that those who approve the livery samples actually now what the livery looks like. If basic simple issues like this can be wrongly portrayed then it does make me a touch cautious when it comes to the important and essential items like the shape....

Hi Jenny, The four locos concerned were 2, 7, 16 and 18 and were transferred from Neasden to Mitre Brisge Car Sheds on 8th March 1962. Ken Benest in 'Metropolitan Electrc Locomotives' (2nd Ed 1984, LURS) writes that "it is understood that they were taken over for experimental work by the Electrical Engineer's section for work connected with ac traction and were moved to Rugby MPD on 1st March 1965. It is believed that they were cut up there in July 1966." So to answer your other question: No they did not get repainted and retained- minus nameplates- LT lined maroon. As far as I know they were not renumbered at all by BR or taken into any sort of stock nor do any sort of work requiring moving on sidings or main lines. Their shoegear was also removed prior to transfer to Mitre Bridge. As a final aside, on withdrawal from LT use at the end of passenger use, the Southern Region obtained the motor bogies ( assume this didn't include the 4 locos above which means 9 sets of motor bogies) for their traction motors which had roller bearing armatures.Each motor bogie had 2 MV339 motors (rated at 300 hp each) which were identical to those fitted to hundreds of 4SUB units- although with differing gearing ratios. I am not sure whether the motor bogies from the 4 locos obtained by BR then went to the Southern when the Electrical Engineers had finished with them- if they indeed retained their traction motors on leaving LT. Hope the above is of interest.