Natalie

Hi Apologies for the bump but just a small correction to the above. The Met was never part of the LNER. What happened in November 1937 was that the responsibility for working the LT hauled passenger trains north of Rickmansworth in addition to the Met Line goods services was acquired by/ transferred to the LNER which on nationalisation passed to the British Transport Commission (ie British Railways). The Met became part of LPTB from July 1st 1933 as part of a revised London Passenger Transport Bill published originally on March 13th 1931 which the Met fought against what it saw as "the predatory proposals of the late Socialist Government (!!)." After much discussion with government, the Met directors reluctantly agreed to the Bill feeling that they had been "backed into a corner." Further discussions resulted with all major issues resolved and during the 1932-33 parliamentary session the Bill went represented and this time passed, receiving Royal Assent on April 13th 1933. Hope that is of some use- please ask if you need any more info or details, I'm afraid that I am a bit obsessed when it comes to the Metropolitan Railway....

They also worked GWR passenger trains from Paddington Bishop's Rd/ Suburban to Liverpool St and Aldgate as well as the monthly stores train from Hammersmith (H&C) to Neasden. Another stores train was from Ealing Common to East Ham/Little Ilford depot. Ocasional trips were made along the Uxbridge branch both on passenger and involved in car transfers between Neasden and Acton Wors. These were top and tailed to Rayners Lane where they reversed and the now rear loco was detached. Very later years saw them used as depot shunters at Ealing Common Depot and a couple of other depots whose names evade me at the moment. There was the temporary use of two locos top and tailing about 6 wagons during the 1930s on the GN&C line in connection with work (again the nature of which evades me atm). A final note is that the use of these locos was considered on the through Ealing Broadway- Southend services on the District and LT&SR- but only in a back up capacity. It is believed that this never actually happened.

Hi Apologies for bumping/replying to an older post- am only just catching up. Have been doing a bit of research about these locos in connection with a small writing project I have in progress so have been looking a lot at them. I would, respectfully like to dispute/correct your comment above re the grey livery. Firstly some background, Benest reveals that initially it was suggested at the Chairman's Conference that the wartime livery should be matt black and instructions were issued to Acton Works to paint the locos thus. However this did not happen (I shall have a further nose around the archives at Acton to see if I can establish a reason) as when the Chairman went to inspect the subsequent repainted loco- No 20- on October 5th 1942 it was discovered to be in Service Grey. Benest reports that the application of the livery to this loco and subsequent grey locos differed mainly in the description of the numbers and letters. The Chairman seemed to approve however and gave his formal approval for the grey livery to be applied instead. Most locos received the grey with nos 3 and 5 being unknown. Additionally No 17 was withdrawn on October 10th 1943 without receiving grey. As the need to retain the locos post war became apparent it was decided to retain both the names and the pre-war Maroon livery. Both generally coincided with the overhaul programme but there was a desire to get the names back on as quickly as possible. This meant that four locos were still in grey when they received their new plates- the first being No 8 on October 5th 1953 in addition to Nos 6, 11 and 12. These received lined maroon in January 1956, May 1956 and December 1955 respectively. No 9 was by now a service loco (as March 23rd 1950) and was not reunited with the 'John Milton' name. Post war restoration to Maroon started with No 16 (incidentally one of the last two grey repaints too) in December 1953. This featured front numbers only and had LT bullesyes in the previous number position on the bodysides. London Transport lettering was also not carried. The next four to emerge- No18 in late 1953/early 1954, No 14 in June 1954, No 10 in August 1954 and No 1 in November 1954 - differed from No16 in that the number was restored in place of the bullesyes- and all four still omitted the London Transport fleetname. A further change came with No 4 in January 1955 when it appeared with a bullesye motif on a plate at the end above the destination board. No 2 in March 1955 was similarly adorned. Both still omitted the bodyside London Transport lettering. The next loco repainted- No 3 in July 1955- received what became the 'standard' post war LTE lined maroon- with the fleetname restored to it's usual previous position, although not mounted on a board as in the grey livery. All remaining locos received this version with the earlier versions receiving it at a subsequent date. One further 'oddity' was No 9 which on repainting from grey in September 1957 received unlined Maroon with 3 numbering. No 9 was used by this time as a service loco which worked the quarterly stores train on the District from Ealing Common- where it was the depot shunter- to Little Ilford Sidings at East Ham. Not all locos received the LTE maroon- No 17 withdrawn on October 10th 1943, No 19 withdrawn March 12th 1948, No 15 withdrawn on September 18th 1951 and No 20 withdrawn on April 26th 1954. Hopefully the above makes sense and is of some use/interest. As others have mentioned it is well worth getting a copy of Ken Benest's "Metropolitan Electric Locomotives" 2nd edition to get a comprehensive history of these fine (and their predecessors) locos.

It is good that Dapol are acknowledging the livery and errors and are going to change them, but you have to ask why have they been made in the first place? It is not like they are modelling Fowler's Ghost of which one- black and white too- photo exists. The 73s have been photted to death in all their liveries so it is just a case of doing the research. A few other livery errors that I noted on the larger pics linked to kindly by an earlier poster. E6039 is not electric blue but Rail Blue. This notion that the JBs carried elec blue is one that was started in recent times by I believe CJM. But my main issue is with the numerals on this model- they look to be in rail style but are too small. They should be the same size as carried in TOPS days. Finally the two green JAs- love these locos in green- but again the numerals are of the wrong style. The model appears to have the corporate style rail- but should have elongated 'diesel' type- think they are serif style but again can't remember the exact name. Finally E6003 should have a fine white stripe/line between the grey and the green. The JBs that appeared in rail blue and small yellow panels also had this white line in those that carried the rail grey stripe- something that really improved the blue on the slab sides- a shame it wasn't perpetuated in the later examples. But they are pre-production samples so there is still hope yet. All being they will look good in the flesh, so to speak. I shall wait to see what they look like when released and then how they stack up against the real things. Only then can an informed decision/ critical analysis be made.

Hi Looks great overall. Love the proper LNWR levers with stirrup catch handles. Nice to see some historical electric stock represented too. Are there any plans for representing the District stock that was used on the shuttle to Earl's Court and the District shunting moves in connection with Lillie Bridge depot (LT) and the yards of scene to the South?

The P2 looks like a nice loco but as it is not my time period or area of choice then I have no intention of getting one from either Hattons or any other purchase outlet. Just thought that I'd share that with people as it seems to be the thing to do..

Apologies for posting incorrect information. You are all correct in what you say re the distance. I think I just saw the two home signals and did a very dangerous thing- I assumed and not based on any credible evidence.

David Brown answers that question on p191 of volume 2 of his 'Southern Electric' "A two-coach "Mobile Test Unit" was made up from withdrawn long-frame 1925 SUB motor coaches 8420 and 8473 (from units 4327 and 4354 respectively) in 1961, to HO 4852 of 30th September 1960. Numbered S15, departmental coach numbers were DS 70057 (8420) and DS 70058 (8478), and early BR malachite green livery was retained. The actual usage to which this unit was put is not known, but it was withdrawn in 1967 and, after being dumped in Coulsdon North sidings and then Micheldever for a number of years, was finally cut up by Cashmore's at Newport in January 1971." Hope that helps. Also detailed in the book are some of the Hal/Bil hybrids which apparently were referred to by schoolboy observers as '2 Hil' and '2 Bal'. I will post the details if of interest.

The following table taken from a Sectional Appendix might prove helpful in showing what SR units can couple in multiple.

The HAP power car converted to a Gatwick Luggage Van had limited involvement in the haulage capabilities of the EDL but there was no traction bus/power line linking the shoes of the GLV to the traction motors of the EDL. The GLV retained a traction motor - which could deliver 500 hp if required and shoes in order to power the electrical requirements of the Mk2 coaches- ie the motor alternator sets for heating and air con as well as lighting etc. As the power provided to the Mk2s' alternators was at conductor rail voltage (nominally 750V dc) rather than the steady 1000v of LHCS the equipment preferred, the stock was converted to accept the lower voltage so as not to be constantly tripping.

Err no its not. It is a forum that you get access to whilst you are a paid up member of DEMU. No additional payments- other than the DEMU membership subscription are required. If you are no longer a member then you cease to get access.

Looks good to me. My records have 2135 receiving BFYE on December 30th 1968. Withdrawal on July 29th 1971 but retained to work a railtour on 25th September 1971 then withdrawn (fully!) on 9th October 1971. According to Six Bells Junction the railtour was the Eastern Region Staff Railway Society 'Farewell to the Southern BILs' which took 2135 with 2111 and 2140 (and E6040) between Twickenham and Richmond) to such esoteric locations as Broad Street, Blackfriars, Watford Junction and Euston.

Looking good Mike. Nice to see some more Southern unit modelling. I have been taking another close look at these units and the accompanying REPs to get to grips with the changes involved in their conversion (specifically the catering vehicles on the REPS- the ex-RU examples in the 1974 units having quite extensive mods compared to the ex-RB versions in the 1966 units). Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but your pic of your TBSK suggests that you have filled in the wrong window on your vehicle. The window to fill in is the one that is for the guard compartment (the small one to the left of the guard door with the compartments to the right). The window opposite the compartment on the other side of the vehicle is retained on the 4TC TBSK. I have considered Replica vehicles as the basis but am put of by the body being complete. The ability to dismantle fully the Bachmann Mk1 coaches being a big plus in their favour. How does the CEP vehicles and the hauled Mk1 stock look together re profiles etc? Do they match well? Have you seen http://www.bloodandcustard.com/bournemouth1966.html at all? Lots of useful information- formations, livery details, repaints etc and very much worth while taking a look at if you have an interest in the Bournemouth 1966 stock. Includes such delights as as 4 TB- ie a 4-TC but with a REP buffet. Looking forward to seeing the unit in blue.

Something I forgot to add in reply to Ceptic's post earlier (when I pressed the 'disagree' button) about the only LH blue/grey SR coaches being the Maunsell TPOs was the reason why I disagreed. Two of the four 1959 Ambulance Car conversions (mentioned by AberdeenBill at the start) from diag 2654 Nondescript saloon brakes received blue/grey. These were S7920S and S7923S. A colour shot of S7923S at Stewart's Lane in 1973 by Keith Gunner is available in the phot section of BRCS yahoo group as well as some other useful info and pics on other blue/grey LHCS to pre-nationalisation designs.

I thought the number was in the BR ex-LMS departmental series and it was the M suffix that was the non standard admission. Cinema coaches are an interesting variant of departmental vehicle where several examples were painted in blue/grey that otherwise they would not have received. The attached generator car in this pic is also of interest in that it appears to be DB975056 that was converted from the prototype Mk1 horsebox M96300 and appears to be painted rail blue. A photo of it appears here http://www.departmentals.com/photo/975056. In a similar vein is the ex-Southern Railway cinema coach and Generator car- DS1308 and DS1309 which were painted almost in blue/grey. It appears that the rail grey was actually white and predated the corporate livery by getting repainted in 1964. Marc Models do a kit for these vehicles http://www.marcmodels.co.uk/html/cinema_coach_-_generator_van.html which I believe Mr Muspratt has examples of on Fisherton Sarum The next photo in the above set shows another interesting departmental vehicle in blue/grey- this being DW150350 which is ex Hawksworth BG W297W in use a generator car for a Cinema Coach. Think this was the only Hawksworth BG to receive blue/grey- albeit not in revenue use.

I had a coupe version of the Marina in the same colour as shown. It was very useful for me as I had just got my first signalling job working at Hinckley- which was an LNWR type 4 box. Think Mr45144 was with me when it got written off in wet weather.

A quick selection from the GCR Driver Fred Franklin prepares 42085 on Loughborough Shed 21st July 2009 48305 is dismounted whilst being 'put away' at Loughborough Shed after a day's work on 28th February 2009 PWay Supervisor Nick Tinsley keeps a sharp look out whilst propelling some engineer's wagon on the up main at Quorn during a T3 on 10th September 2009 S&T techs Shaun Sanders and Amy Nicholson carry out some work (or whatever it is that the 'sick and tired' do ;-) ) on the now-infamous no 6a trap point in Quorn down refuge siding during a Diesel Gala on 12th September 2009 "Are you sure you dropped it in there?" The less glamorous side of steam engines as the crew dispose of the ashes from 63601 at Loughborough on 9th September 2009

Ditto what Andi and Tase has written. Your original site (and your excellent CDs of drawings too) has been very useful in giving me an idea of how things are actually installed. It is responsible for me looking skywards and gazing - and photting- the wiring and equipment provided. Nuneaton certainly has a good variety where it has been joined by some new portals of the type i/c a diamond cut out in the span. Nuneaton also has a bit of trolley type wiring for the down holding sidings- I have tried to work out how the catenary wire is terminated- I assume it is simply provided i/c an insulator and attached to a mast/portal. Unfortunately I couldn't confirm this visually as there is quite a lot of wires in the vicinity and the staring at it was making my eyes hurt...Maybe it is worth posting some photos for expert identification and for others to take an interest in. I do have one little question though- IIRC there were instances were a contact wire would cross another one- such as over a crossover road (rather than say being strung from one mast, run alongside an existing contact wire (for the running line) then diverges over the crossover then runs alongside the running line contact wire for the other line for a short distance before being terminated)- would this not produce a 'bump' for the pantograph head and potential dewiring and all the fun that entails? EDIT- As an afterthought do you have anything on the SReg trolley-type overhead wiring? I have photted from Kew a couple of wiring plans dealing with the application of OHL (and also shows the transition from 3rd rail and where things like the 'raise'and 'lower' boards were located and the type of structure etc utilised) from the Ashford area. Are these (ie copies of my photo files) of interest to you- or to anyone else for that matter? Wonder if it worth posting these up as well and see if it promotes any discussion. I think I have also photted a couple of wiring plans too for the LMR 25Kv (from TNA, Kew) which IIRC are from Manchester Piccadilly. Would need to confirm this though.

Hi Jason Enjoyed following your progress. I have a signal diagram for the real Bacup which I can alter to suit your track layout if that is of any use?

Hi Nice to see another LNWR box getting built. I realise that it is a bit late now but wondered if you were familiar with Hinckley box on the Nuneaton- Leicester line. This too was located on the side of an embankment and had a base which extended into the ground. This was made of brick and featured several arches at its base where it went into the ground. Now all the time I worked the box (1980s) it was a standard brick type 4 with 2+2+2+2 windows on front (can't remember which size classification) and had 30 levers. According to Foster in 'LNWR Signalling' Hinckley had previously been a wooden box and had its base replaced by bricks- which to me looked like any other type 4 brick base. I did have the forsight to take a photo or two from the rear of the box showing this base but as I'm still not at home I don't have access to it so am unable to share it with you. Unfortunately like all but one of my ex boxes it has been reduced to a pile of rubble so can't even get some nice new digitial shots to show you what I am on about. For the life of me I can't remember off hand what colour it was painted- but it did come under Leicester S&T at the time- but can tell you that we had a Wilton carpet inside and inside shoes were banned. It survived until the infamous fire of January 1986 and was stored unservicable (the carpet that is) following the efforts of the local fire brigade who empited their water tender over it as the put out the fire in the roof- behind the metal plate behind the stove- that had been caused by a stray spark from the chimney.

The buffets with the Art Deco style interior as you put were indeed designed by Oliver Bulleid and were included in the 4Buf units (3073-85) ordered for the Portsmouth No.2 electrification scheme. The units had originally being ostensibly designed by Richard Maunsell but his retirement and the appointment of OVSB as his replacement coincided with the start of these unit's construction. One of Mr Bulleid's roles on the LNER prior was being in charge of coaches and he is credited as being instrumental in the commissioning of the Coronation and Silver Jubliee streamliner sets. He did not like the planned interiors of the BUF buffets and decreed that they should be redisgned internally. There were large expanses of windowless sides around the kitchen and bar area 'so as to ensure greater privacy' to patrons. The interior walls had a 'scalloped edge' theme to them (pic on page 146 of Brown Vol 2). The edges of the saloon tables and bar were scalloped each serving one seat. Additionally the saloon tables were not arranged in the conventional manner ie in the traditional table with 2+2 seating on each side. Instead the tables were attached below each window and the four seats arranged around it- basically looking out of the window. As the windows in the saloon were in an early form of double glazing and Stone's force pressure ventilation equipment was fitted no opening panels/toplights were initially provided. Experience soon proved that on hot days (remember them?!) they were found to be claustrophic and post WW2 were fitted with sliding ventilators. A final feature of these vehicles was the fact that they were outshopped in plain malachite with Bulleid style lettering whilst the other three vehicles in the set were in lined olive green with Maunsell lettering. This was apparently to make them stand out from the rest of the train and draw attention to their facilities- sort of an early form of red cantrail stripe if you like. The Bulleid catering vehicles story and his concepts are maybe better described if we consider the Tavern Car loco hauled sets which are certainly controversial vehicles depending on which view you take. As I am still at Mother's at the moment (for my own welfare) I don't have my copy of Mike King's Southern Coaches book physcially with me to further relate their story- but think I have copies of the pages on one of the memory sticks with me. I shall take a nose and start a new topic as they are well off topic for here!!

Hi I thought it might be of interest to some to give a brief note about the 2Bil liveries carried. If more detail is required- ie dates- then shout up and I'll be happy to supply it. GFYE- Those listed in bold italics feature the yellow ends wrapping back as far as the cab door but not including it. The others feature an application of the full yellow end where the yellow is only partially wrapped round as far as the cab/body join line. 2090 in preservation carried 'partial wrapround' full yellow ends. They can be seen here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/2BIL_with_the_4SUB_Ashford_Works_open_day.jpg 2003/05/09/10/11/21/26/28/38/48/50/52/53/55/56/57/58/60/65/74/78/79/83/89/90/93/96 2113/116/121/130/137/141/146/147/150/151 BFYE- the full yellow end was also only partially wrapped round as far as the cab/body join line rather than extend as far as the cab doors as on some of the GFYE examples noted above: 2016/21/22/24/25/32-34/36/43/52/58/62/64/67/72/75/80/86/90/98/99 2101/103/104/111/112/123/132/133-135/137/139-141/147/149 The following all retained GSYP on withdrawal: 2001/02/04/06-08/12-15/17-20/23/27/29-31/35/37/39-42/44-47/49/51/54/59/61/63/66/68-71/73/76/77/81/82/84/85/87/88/91/92/94/95/97 2100/102/105-110/114/115/117-120/122/124-129/131/136/138/142-145/148/152 As far as I am aware no 2Bil carried BSYP. I trust the above is useful.