tiger

Hi again everyone. Thanks for the positive comments about my previous post with pics from 1989. One year later, on a wet 4 July 1990, I had my first ride: from Doncaster to Leeds, behind "series two" locomotive 91012, with brand new Mk IV coaching stock. I never did get to experience the power and acceleration of a 91+43 combo! Seminar on arrival in Leeds. I'm the lanky guy nearest to 91012 in the blue anorak (complete with binoculars...I can't possibly think why trainspotters get a bad image). My wife and kids find photos of me like this extremely funny. I'm not in touch with anybody else in the picture - we were all Scottish based kids on a summer holiday camp. If you happen to recognise yourself please get in touch. In early 1991, 91019 was used in Scotland for crew training prior to introduction of the fleet on ECML services from London to Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow Central. She is seen here on Platform 21 at Waverley. I was experimenting, doing my own developing and printing with black and white film (Ilford FP4?) in a school photography club darkroom, hence the black and white print. A few weeks later 91019 has been cleaned and polished (but only above the solebar) and named "Scottish Enterprise" for the launch of electric train services between Glasgow (Central) and Edinburgh, via Carstairs. The service was officially launched with a special train on 30 May 1991, which ran between Glasgow and Edinburgh and is seen here arriving at Waverley. Members of the press were conveyed, along with the then Secretary of State for Transport, Malcolm Rifkind MP. From memory, the full ECML electric timetable was supposed to start from the beginning of the summer 1991 timetable in May, but this was delayed until July 1991 due to late deliveries of Mk IV coaching stock - in the meantime there was a gradual introduction of Class 91/Mk IV sets replacing HST diagrams from May or June that year. I can't remember whether this press special marked the actual launch date of London Kings Cross-Glasgow Central, via Edinburgh services, or whether they followed a few weeks later. My final class 91 shot from the archives shows 91028 resting on platform 19 at Waverley in the shadow of the North British Hotel, on Sunday 16 February, 1992, having arrived with a train from London Kings Cross. This was my final class 91 "for sight", which also happened to mark the end of my career as a notebook carrying trainspotter! I hope everybody has enjoyed these photos of class 91s in their early years. They seemed so powerful, futuristic and modern at the time; it is hard to believe that 30 years has passed since their introduction and that they are now starting to be withdrawn. I guess every generation of enthusiasts has this experience of seeing traction come and go, whether it be Gresley's A4s, Deltics, or HSTs, to use some ECML examples. Cheers Tom.

14 year old me was just so excited to see my first class 91s at Doncaster in 1989. My Dad and I had glimpsed two from a passing train in April that year, but it wasn't until 13 July that I was able to make a day trip to Donny to see them close up. So here is my first class 91: a broadside view of 91009 in the sidings next to Doncaster Works. 91009, front three quarter view: 91005, with Mk 3 HST coaching stock and class 43 DVT, waits to depart platform 4 for Leeds the same day. Rear three quarters view of 91007 attached to a driver training train made up of blue/grey Mk 3 Sleepers and an HST DVT in the Down sidings at Doncaster, also on 13 July 1989. And finally that day we saw 91003 in another Mk 3 HST DVT combination, this time on platform 8 waiting to depart for Leeds.

The two 101s in C9018 and C9020 (set numbers 101360 and 101362) were unusual because they retained four end marker lights - most had the middle pair removed during refurbishment. It is a strange coincidence that they appear as consecutive pictures in your thead, Dave. This thread is always fabulous to view, but these Princes St Garden photos in resonate very strongly with me being so full of childhood/early teenage memories of the railway scene I grew up with in Edinburgh. Thanks for posting them. Cheers Tom (now in Sydney, Australia).

I went on the Great Train Race with, my 5 yr old son, in Sydney this year as depicted in the video on the OP's post, and have been on train races in previous years with my wife and our daughter when she was the same age. It's a very engaging event which is lots of fun for everybody aboard both trains - young and old. It offers the unique experience to witness of parallel running of a working steam loco in a main line context. The drivers obviously ham-up the "race" element of the experience by allowing one train to pull ahead of the other, and then dropping back to allow the other train to "overtake"; this is repeated several times during the trip so that all passengers on both trains experience parallel run-pasts of the other train's locomotive a few times regardless of whether they are seated in a front, middle, or rear carriage. The parallel running lasts from Sydney to Strathfield, a distance of about 15 km. Over that distance there are 6 tracks which are paired by use (i.e. up, down, up, down, up, down) - so there is one track between the two "racing" trains (no handshakes!). From a safety point of view, all carriages have stewards; leaning out of the windows (which can be opened widely, including the main saloon lights which can be raised several inches) is not permitted although it was permitted to have the windows open wide. The trains are run in top and tail mode with a diesel on the rear - at least one of which was a preserved diesel. Having passed through Strathfield non-stop, and the race "winner" declared, the train carries on for several more km to Clyde where the train reverses and is diesel-hauled back to Central. The whole round trip takes about an hour which is more than enough time for the attention spans of a family with young children. Kids and adults alike love the "Race" factor with the adults also enjoying the spectacle of parallel running. The train race is held on a Saturday morning which marks the start of a 3-day "Sydney Transport Heritage" long weekend, with steam train return trips along the same route offered throughout the 3 days; there are usually other heritage trains on display in Central station (locos in steam, and preserved rolling stock) and preserved buses operating on loop route through the city. But the "Train Race" is only offered once, on the Saturday morning. I imagine that there is less traffic than usual on a Saturday morning compared to a weekday, which allows these two parallel special trains to be timetabled without jeopardising the running of other scheduled trains. I'm sure something similar could be organised somewhere in the UK - it really is a fun event for everybody, including non-enthusiasts. Cheers Tom.

I think the original approval for ECML electrification was London to Leeds and Newcastle only, as the onward traffic to Edinburgh was not thought to be sufficient to justify the cost of electrification. Under the original scheme the planned traction was a fleet of Class 89 locomotives plus a new build of Mk3b coaches, with power doors (maybe they would have been Mk3c if they were actually built) plus DVTs. As you stated the plan was for a locomotive change at Newcastle to pairs of refurbished class 50s for the journey North. This was detailed in Modern Railways in 1983/84 including drawings of the class 89 looking a little different to how it was eventually built. Problems identified with this plan were that the change from IC125 to class 89/Mk3b 125 mph trains might not be seen as a significant improvement from a passenger point of view, and that journey times from London to Edinburgh would be longer overall. It didn’t take long for BR to submit a new proposal, which was approved, for a variant of the APT (maybe APT-U?) instead of Class 89/Mk3b and for electrification all the way to Edinburgh which was justified on the basis of expected improved passenger loading associated with shorter journey times. The APT-U became known as IC225 and the rest, as we know, is history! Hope that helps Cheers Tom.

It looks like a Mk2a disguised - it is missing the 4-part ventilators carried by the early Mk 2 FK. Bachmann produced the early Mk 2 FK in various liveries in OO (SR green, BR Maroon and Blue/Grey) which were prototypical. The model correctly featured Mk1 style Pullman gangways which were a unique feature of the early Mk 2 FK (and the prototype Mk 2 FK 13252) and had 4-part ventilators, but to me the proportions of the ventilators were distorted - way too deep. It would be great to have an accurate early Mk2 FK in N, but I suspect Test Car 6 and the other forthcoming releases will just be Mk 2a in disguise. Cheers Tom.

True. I plan to model the Prototype HST during its time on the ECML so perhaps I should be bemoaning the lack of RTR Mk1 buffet car in reverse blue and grey running on BT5 bogies... However I am not aware of many (if any) occasions when the formation was 2+8 with 4 TF and 4 TS. I just wonder whether coaching stock packs of 3 trailers in each might have been more economical for potential buyers (potentially encouraging more people to put in the expression of interest and thus increasing the likelihood of the model going ahead) whilst still letting people model most of the formations which ran during testing and in service. Only my (probably flawed) opinion though. Cheers Tom.

I really hope this gets sufficient numbers to get the go ahead for production. I want to make two points - constructive comments hopefully! 1. I do wonder if the planned coach packs (four open saloons in each, two first, two second) will put some buyers off because to represent the typical 2+7 formation (2x TF, TRUK, TS, TRSB, 2x TS) you will have 3 spare coaches left over at what works out to be £30 per coach, ie £90 worth of likely unused stock. I can think of uses for some of these spare coaches (repaints etc), and some will be on-sold, but the hassle of this may put some buyers off. 2. Will the “loco-hauled type roof” with 3 roe-vac ventilators be made available as a separate item. Please??!! Preferably with the same fixing arrangements as the existing Mk3 HST roofs, so that we can retrospectively add these to our exiting loco hauled Mk3a coaches. Looking forward to these models if and when they come. Cheers Tom.

It would be really great if these coaches were produced with all of the following details, which are all points of difference from a standard Mk3 (HST) or Mk3a: - built in tail lights - different underframe with a unique recessed panel for the retention tank toilets - larger end windows in the folding gangway doors - roof with water tank hatches at both ends, but the large square ventilator at one end only (this is correctly represented on the EP shown on the Dapol Digest) My guess is that the sleeper may be a modification of existing tooling or use existing tooling for some components eg the underframe, so the final model will probably compromise on some of these details. Regardless, to me it is a welcome announcement. Cheers Tom.

Fantastic! I thought this was "in abeyance". Have placed my pre-orders. Fingers crossed that this goes ahead. Cheers Tom.

I am going to stick my head above the parapet with my opinion about the Deltic in J3111... I am by no means an expert, but I don’t think it is 9020 NIMBUS (or 55020 if you prefer). When new the last three delivered production Deltics (D9019, D9020 and D9021) had roof-mounted air horns whereas all of the earlier deliveries had them under the buffer beam. Following trials with D9007, which had the air horns located within the nose for a short period (I think there may have been some pics of this modification in this thread) the Deltics all had their air horns moved to the familiar location on top of the nose in front of the outside of the cab windscreens as seen here - but D9019, 20 and 21 retained bolt holes on the roof where the horns had previously been mounted. As in this photo: https://flic.kr/p/J33tfb The Deltic in J3111 doesn’t have the tell-tale bolts on its roof so probably isn’t Nimbus. Hope that helps... Tom.

Just to add a couple of comments to what has already been said: In real life the HST trailers had yellow gangway doors originally in blue/grey, executive and INTERCITY liveries (on the real thing it was yellow fibreglass or plastic, I can’t remember which). It was only in the post-privatisation era that they were spray painted in different colours - usually light grey. From memory though this varied depending upon the privatised operator - GNER had grey gangway doors but Virgin Trains stuck with the yellow. Loco hauled Mk 3a stock also had yellow gangway doors but Mk 3b stock (which was delivered in Executive livery) has grey doors from new. Also, (may be wrong about this but I am sure someone will be able to confirm) I think the buffet or kitchen end gangway doors of the catering vehicles (TRSB, TRUB, TRUK, TRFB, TRFK) were orangey red. So the earlier Dapol releases with grey doors were wrong in any of the BR liveries, unless the loco hauled coach happened to be numbered as a Mk3b. Looking at the latest release coaches in the Hattons website linked in the earlier post, it looks as if the proportions of the red and white INTERCITY stripes have now been corrected which makes the whole livery application appear more accurate, especially with the yellow gangway ends. On the catering vehicles the stripe above the Windows was red above the buffet/kitchen in blue/grey, Executive and IC swallow liveries. However from about 1990 the red stripe was no longer applied and usually the stripe was executive light grey. Above the large saloon windows the stripe was yellow on First class vehicles (TRFB and TRFK) but exec light grey on second class vehicles (TRSB) or blue in original livery. The Dapol buffet car is actually a loco hauled RFM and doesn’t have the same window layout as any of the HST coaches, so it is probably ok that it doesn’t have a red or yellow stripe assuming it is numbered as a TRSB. Hope this helps Tom.

1967?

What type of bogie steel wagons are the two class 26s hauling in this picture? What an awesome working! Cheers Tom.

Hi all My sound fitted 40141 arrived in Oz yesterday and has been run in - impressive range of sounds even on DC only and I agree that it is a lovely model. Speed is much slower than many other recent N gauge models but prototypical for a 40. However I have a question - today I have found that the sound abruptly cuts out when running at full speed (running DC only as I don't yet have DCC), and returns when the controller is reduced to about 90%. I appreciate that full speed running is not very prototypical but wondered whether this is a characteristic of DC running or whether the model is faulty and should be returned. Has anybody else encountered this? The sound performance is continuous, provided the controller is kept below about 90% full power. For the purposes of running in I have been using one of the Bachmann Graham Farish standard train set controllers (no PWM or high voltage track cleaners etc). Interested to hear any comments? Cheers Tom.

I can’t help with the identification of the train in question but recall that there was a proposal around 1993 for an additional build of 15 IC225 class 91/Mk IV sets to be built for WCML InterCity services (probably Euston-Manchester/Liverpool as already stated). An ECML MkIV set (probably the one with 91029) was borrowed for various demonstration runs on the WCML - I can’t remember whether they were press runs or normal Service trains. This proposal for new stock for IC had to compete against a business case submitted by NSE for additional Networkers. From memory the orders came in a time a time of recession and were politically motivated to keep production lines open. There was only sufficient funding for one of the two business cases to proceed and the NSE bid won - the Networkers in question becoming Class 365, which was also the last fleet of trains ordered and delivered by British Rail before the famous “1064 day hiatus” (approximately) in rolling stock building famously documented by Roger Ford in Modern Railways. Cheers Tom.

D9021? I think I can make out the tell-tale sign of bolts on the cab roof where the roof mounted air horns were originally mounted on D9019, D9020 and D9021. The double line nameplate rules out D9020 NIMBUS. There is a regimental crest above the nameplate, but that doesn’t help as both D9019 and D9021 carried a crest. However there looks to be more red on the lower half of the nameplate either side of a single central word as if it says: ARGYLL & SUTHERLAND HIGHLANDER Like this: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-13196-0-57109400-1394743452.jpg Rather than: ROYAL HIGHLAND FUSILIER like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Carried_with_pride-_%27Royal_Highland_Fusilier%27_nameplate_-_panoramio.jpg And finally "D9021" not just "9021" as, according to Chronicles of Napier, the "D" prefix was still carried in March 1970 but had been removed by May 1970. Am I right? Thanks Dave F for scanning all of the amazingly evocative pictures on this thread which bring back fond distant memories from early childhood. Cheers Tom.

Hi Pete I read the earlier discussion with interest. Time plays tricks on the memory and I was only a kid/teenager in the BR era when the Mk 3 and 3a fleets were progressively repainted from Blue/Grey to "executive" livery and then on to INTERCITY. And, I lived in Edinburgh so most of my exposure to Mk 3 coaching stock was in HST rakes and Edinburgh-Glasgow push-pulls. So there is plenty of scope for me to be wrong... I've been Googling and Flickring to see whether my memory is playing tricks on me or not. Most of the pictures I have found are like this one where to my eye at least it looks as if all of the stock has sliver frames: https://flic.kr/p/kqPoJF Silver frames apart from the leading Mk1 BG: https://flic.kr/p/nswHqY Looks like the silver frames lasted until the end of the IC livery era: https://flic.kr/p/r5hKrR Generally the frames were completely painted over on Mk 2 aircons, like this: https://flic.kr/p/e2FLzU I think the silver frame effect was quite subtle as it was just the inner part of the frame that appeared "silver" - as seen earlier in this thread (I realise this is ScotRail livery): http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107460-oxford-rail-announces-oo-gauge-mk3-coaches/?p=2652948 Mk 3a RFM 10200 has already been featured in this thread in IC livery with painted frames - but I think this was the exception rather than the rule. It was painted to match a Mk 2F Norwich-London rake (AR01) as the first rake to be refurbished just as the Anglia franchise was let for the first time; all of the remaining rakes received "Anglia" colours on refurbishment. Anyway I'm glad you like the look of the new Oxford coaches - they certainly look like finely moulded accurate models which knock the spots off the previous efforts from Hornby, Lima and Joeuf Cheers Tom.

I think the Oxford one really looks streets ahead of the Joeuf - the moulding is much finer and less clunky. Just look at the Roe Vac vents and the gangways by way of comparison. However what will really make these models perfect is getting the livery application absolutely right - so the red and white stripe proportions need to be adjusted. I also really think the Oxford Rail IC livery looks odd without the window frames being highlighted in silver. Yes the frames have been painted over in many of the Privatisation era liveries, but they were almost universally silver in the BR INTERCITY era (ex-prototype vehicles and the Anglia RFM pictured earlier in the thread excepted). The Dapol Mk 3 IC coaches have silver frames in N Gauge so it should be possible to add the distinctive detail in OO/4mm. Cheers Tom

Looking at the pictures linked above, some of the TSOs have individual reading lights on the underside of the luggage rack (of the type more normally seen just in first class these days), and some don't. We're these fitted to all Mk 2 PVs consistently when built and then removed later when refurbished, or were they not fitted to all Mk 2 PVs when built? In which case, which submarks had them and which didn't. Looking at the pictures the Mk2a and 2b TSO (pics 1 and 3) have the reading lights, but the two refurbs with NSE moquette and plastic wall panelling instead of timber (pic 2, and pic 4 with APT seats) do not. Maybe the refurbs are both "Mk2z" / early mark 2? Cheers Tom.

3 days to go until the end of June. Is there any chance of the ordering process / VAT issue being sorted out for those of us currently outside the EU?

Th Thanks Chris for the reply, and also to one other RMWebber who sent a PM. After some Googling I found that somebody else had encountered the same problem, and a simple (but unlikely) solution. See Grahame's posts 22 and 23 in this link: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=30742.msg350332#msg350332 I tried the same thing - loosening and re-tightening the motor brush retaining screws with a 00 Philips head screwdriver - and the Executive livery HST power car is now not only back to life, but about 10% faster than before. Ironically it is now the other HST power car (blue/grey Eastern Region from ND122h) which is causing problems. This is the power car which caused me more concern initially - more motor noise, lower speed for a given voltage etc. It has quietened down reasonably with running-in but doesn't match the performance of the resuscitated Executive PC. I have now found that after several minutes running with 8 light-bar fitted coaches and the dummy PC, the power car will slow down and stop without notice. When this happens all lights also go out - both on the power cars and the light bars in the coaching stock. Turning the controller off for a few seconds and restarting, the train will run again briefly, then slow down and stop as before. If I leave it turned off for longer, it will run for longer upon restarting, but eventually will slow down and stop. This happens when running in both directions. The motor gets warm, but not hot. I have 3 DC controllers and this only happens with two of them: they are both locally purchased Australian controller/transformers "Powerline PR-TC Train Set Controller and Transformer". The erratic stopping doesn't happen with the 3rd controller which is the standard Bachmann/Graham Farish DC train set controller (ex "Merseyside Express"). The Powerline units are very similar to the Farish one in design - a separate transformer plugs into the power supply, which delivers 16V AC 1000 mA to the controller. The controller provides the variable rectified 0-12 V DC to the track. It is a basic controller with no feedback or PWM. I presume what is happening is that the current draw of the blue/grey power car, plus 8 light bars and the lights on the dummy PC is triggering the circuit breaker of the Powerline controller. This doesn't happen when I run the Executive PC with 10 light-bar fitted coaches and dummy on the same controller, nor if I run with blue/grey PC without the light-bar fitted stock. I don't have an ammeter to check (perhaps its time to buy one!). From further Googling it now seems I may need to get access to the motor to clean or polish the commutator and maybe even de-grease the armature, to cure this high current draw. When I was a kid it was easy to do this on Hornby Ringfield and X03 motors! Has anybody got any experience of doing this in these Dapol motors? There are some forum posts about commutator polishing which talk about milling the motor block to gain access http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11186.msg139817#msg139817 Any suggestions welcomed! Of course I can run it OK with the Farish controller but the plan is eventually to move over to DCC, so I'd like to get the motor sorted out before then - plus I'm sure it won't do the motor good in the long run if I keep running it in this condition. In other news I'm trying to figure out the best way to get matching roof colour across my Dapol HST fleet... The joys! Cheers, Tom.

In later life (post privatisation era) some of the remaining Mk 2e got the interior plastic panelling - a few with Anglia come to mind. These 2e TSO were virtually indistinguishable internally from the refurbished 2f with wing headrests which remained with Anglia. Not sure what happened to the 2d which went to fGW or if any Mk2e remained with Virgin Cross Country, and whether they also received the plastic panelling. Cheers Tom

A few quick questions... I've just encountered a problem whilst running-in a Dapol HST. I have had two HST sets - one Executive (ND122c), and one Eastern Region blue/grey (ND122h) - stored in the attic for the last few years waiting for me to get on and build a layout! Now that the baseboards are finally constructed I have set up some basic ovals of track and started running-in various items of stock... Out of the box the Executive HST was quiet, smooth and responsive, whilst the blue/grey had more motor or gear "growl", and ran more slowly for a given controller setting. I have already run-in several other Dapol locos and have always followed the instructions meticulously: one drop of oil (Dapoil) on each exposed gear, running at a moderate speed for 30 minutes in each direction on DC powered by a modern Graham Farish (i.e. N gauge) controller. All seemed to be going well, and the blue/grey power car was becoming quieter. Then after 45 minutes the executive power car suddenly stopped running. I didn't see what happened as I was out of the room, but upon investigating the directional lighting still works in both directions but the motor doesn't spin at all. Is this a common type of failure and if so, does anybody have any idea what the problem is likely to be? PCB? Motor? Something else? It is well and truly out of warranty, having been purchased about 4 years ago. I'm in Australia so it is going to be quite a hassle sending it back to DCC supplies for a repair - is there likely to be anything user-serviceable (unlikely)? What is the likely cost of repair - is it more cost effective to just bite the bullet and purchase a replacement chassis? Finally, is there anything that should be done differently when running-in a model which has been in storage for several years, apart from the standard lubrication? I have several other models waiting their turn in the queue for running-in. Thanks in advance - any ideas gratefully received. Tom.

I will order one 320 in SPTE orange and one 321/4 in NSE but I am in Australia, so am waiting for the VAT issue to be sorted out before paying the deposit. Cheers Tom.