pharrc20

Nice work Mozzer and David looking good. A shame that the etches never got altered. When I checked the original test etches for the previous owner of the etch artwork I flagged up that the floor portion of the etch was too wide. That was in late 2009 I had helped him with. So presumably when he sold the etch artwork onto Roxey nothing had been altered. One thing to note if you are modelling them as Summers wagons then you will not need the vacuum cylinders and vac pipe fitted as the Summers wagons were only ever unfitted wagons. Only once they were purchased by BR and ICI did they gain the vacuum brake equipment and larger style ICI lettering. Plus the vertical end ladders were fitted as standard to the Summers wagons and retained by ICI when they received their fleet of 13 wagons. Cheers Paul

Hi Jon, I have been following this thread with interest and although I never saw much of the real wagons running I was granted permission to go and visit the wagons when they were stored at Anglesey Aluminium in 2007 as at the time we were considering doing an etched brass kit but nothing came of it in the end. But we did manage to bag some photos of the wagons in the long sidings next to the connection to the mainline. I can make my photos available plus my notes from the two days I went with my colleague to visit them. But a rake of those on a trans-Pennine diversion via the Hope Valley line instead of Diggle sounds quite nice slight bending of the truth mmm and a Grid on the front would look rather nice. Cheers Paul

Hi Cav, a 10 wagon rake of hoppers would be quite nice behind one of your repainted 37/5s. BTW I was told by a former Buxton driver that 37688 was the worst loco they had and often failed! As for running the hoppers down to Derby, I am not too familiar with what freight handling facilities may have existed there in your time period but I think St. Marys yard was still open then so whether there were any drops or discharge facilities available there I'm not sure. Must be some rmweb members local to Derby who would be able to clarify this or not. Cheers Paul

Hi Cav, well the Hindlow rakes did occasionally use single Buxton 37/5s and sometimes pairs of 31/1s or 20s were also seen on the service. These trains usually loaded to 17 wagons the main constraints on this being the steep gradients towards Buxton then following reversal and run-round then the climb upto Hindlow; plus the length of the run-round loop at Buxton Up Reception Sdgs. So you could easily model a 37/5 with about 10 wagons and justify it as being a short working to supply limestone to another quarry somewhere down the line. Or swop that so that it is a Roadstone aggregates service to Derby say? Again that could be just 10 wagons for a single 37/5 or say 14-16 for a pair. Could you utilise the hoppers in the sidings at the back of the station especially if there is a stone loading building? Then additional stone could be loaded here and forwarded onto Tunstead to supplant the main supply as it were. That is the principle I am using for my own Speedlow OO layout and that will use a rake of 8 ICI hopper wagons that can be split into two rakes for loading and onward dispatch onto Tunstead. PM me if you want any more info on that hopper kit that was produced. Cheers Paul

Hi Cav, great thread so many pages and excellent modelling. On the ICI hoppers there were three main traffic flows from Tunstead in the period you are modelling (and indeed my own Speedlow layout too!). There is the main Mond limestone traffic to Northwich supplying raw crushed limestone to the works at Winnington (via Oakleigh Sdgs) and Lostock (via Northwich yard); then there was the Roadstone aggregates traffic to the Tilcon and Quickmix terminals at Bredbury, Collyhurst St and Dean Lane (opp Newton Heath depot); and finally the newly created flow to Hindlow works for lime products side of the business. So you could in theory have a short rake of ICI hoppers running either as a Roadstone or Hindlow rake to somewhere down the line towards Matlock... its your layout after all. As for models, well their used to be a nice little kit for the ICI hoppers in N gauge that was produced by Ian Stoate Models some years ago. I am not certain that it is still available now but it came with on piece resin body, resin underframe, brass buffers, some etched parts to represent the end T stays and I think a choice of Farish bogies. HTH Paul

Hi eastwestdivide, now I know you posted the photo back in January but apologies for not commenting sooner. What is shown in the photo there is ICIM 19152, which was the first of the refurbished and newly vacuum-brake fitted ex John Summers/BSC iron ore hoppers that had passed over to ICI Mond to replace 13 of their own wagons scrapped after accidents. What I would have given to have this photo for my book on the ICI hoppers 12 years ago! ICM 19152 did several tare and loaded trails from the RTC and your photo clearly shows the test load of limestone that enabled these 13 wagons to be certified for the ICI traffic although the ex Summers wagons were initially used only on the Roadstone traffic. Cheers Paul

Following on from my initial posting I have taken a pair of photos to illustrate my layout and workbench. I try and spend a bit of time when I can doing some modelling either on the layout or on some of the wagon projects that I am doing. The Hornby Sentinel has had the Esso branding and livery taken off and will soon be undercoated ready for application of the faded ICI orange, white and grey livery. Any questions comments just ask 🙂 Cheers Paul Photo of Speedlow layout board with my workbench in background My workbench with spot the wagon projects! Edited: 1st April 2023 missing images restored.

Looking good Peter. Reminds me of the Battlestar Galatica ship for some reason seeing it upside down like that hmmmm. I have had a look at the track diagrams to try and work out the best way to split the layout up into smaller sections to allow for some DCC power districts given the different zones of the layouts, two separate fiddle yards at Glen Gillie end and one joint fiddle yard at Loch Inch end. The two mainlines could be treated as two districts including lines leading off them etc. I don't want to end up with loads of power districts but enough to enable the layouts to be operated in a better way. And with an eye on the future expansion of the layouts and links to Bridge of Muir. Cheers Paul

Looking at photos on Google images the Tarmac liveried wagons are definitely kept a lot cleaner than their cousins working from Tunstead. So you could lightly weather with traffic dirt on the bogies and underframes mixed in with some stone dust around the hopper doors and on the sloping ends of the wagons add a light mix of both. As always it is best to work from some photos to get the right effect. Cheers Paul

Hi Stephen, which version do you mean? Those with the closed tops operating out of Grassington quarry in Tarmac white livery and green/yellow stripes or the plain white VTG operated ones that operate for Tarmac out of Tunstead quarry near Buxton. Both would be quite traffic worn after several years in traffic since their last repaints but the Tarmac liveried ones seem to be kept cleaner I think. Cheers Paul

A quick update on Warren Kerfoot Models in Compstall, Stockport I have just found out last night that the shop is closing for good and the shop stock is to be valued and auctioned off. Cheers Paul

Hi Ed, many years ago I was given by someone I can't remember who just now a photograph of a loaded hopper train on the Gorstage branch heading from Hartford exchange sidings to Wallerscote works. It was a photo mounted a foam type paper as I recall. It looks like the rake of hoppers is being hauled by one of the works 0-6-0 class 08 type shunters and is taken from the B5153 Northwich Rd overbridge looking east/north-east towards Wallerscote. HTH Cheers Paul

Hi Ben A, thanks for the comments. I have lots more photos of the PGAs and a whole set of notes with the livery and sticker details somewhere stashed away. Tata Chemicals who now operate the chemicals plants at Northwich decided to close its soda ash and calcium chloride factory in Winnington, retain and expand the sodium bicarbonate factory in Winnington and retain its soda ash and sodium bicarbonate factories in Lostock. It was first rumoured last year but it wasn't until this year that the plans were confirmed. Hence no longer needing deliveries of limestone to Oakleigh Sidings for Winnington Works. Cheers Paul http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/10724558.220_jobs_at_risk_as_Tata_considers_closing_its_Winnington_soda_ash_factory/ http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/10867159.Tata_confirms_New_Year_Winnington_closures/?ref=mr http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/10983008.End_of_an_era_at_Winnington_plant/?ref=mr

Hi Peter, sorry to hear of your illness and problem, take it easy all the best Paul

Hi Ed, from memory the works hired class 08 would come up and collect either the half rake of loaded PGAs and take them down to the unloading shed on the left side and then later on take the loaded MGR wagons and these went down into the right side fan of sidings. I think they were split into smaller rakes perhaps two side by side to be unloaded in the grey shed. Sometimes the PGAs arrived first then the MGRs other times vice versa as you can see from my photos as I have scanned them in print order for each date. Although I never saw the PCAs being loaded as they had long gone by 1998 but looking at my notes that I scribbled and drew in the pI$$ing rain that always seemed to accompany my visits to Oakleigh and Winnington, the loading for the soda ash tanks was right in the middle of the works I think beyond where the rakes of stored PHV hoppers stood. BR locos were in the time I visited only permitted to shunt upto the road bridge and videos on youtube from the early 1990s show the same. The works shunters were able to shunt all of Oakleigh Sidings to bring empty hoppers back up from the works and shunt them back into the left hand sidings as shown in the photos. Outgoing loaded tanks were also parked in here. I guess the works shunters were able to shunt as far the Chester Road overbridge or thereabouts. On my visits to Winnington the original works shunters were still on site but parked up awaiting disposal including the two class 08 lookalikes. Sadly I neglected to take any photos of these concentrating on the hoppers if only I had a pocket full of films that day! So shunting was done by hired in class 08s including 08867. Storage of the incoming limestone and coal was an issue and so this sometimes meant the wagons stayed in Oakleigh until needed and only then taken down into the works for unloading. I have some more photos of loaded wagons in the sidings at Winnington from my visits as well plus some of the lime and coke unloading shed. Cheers Paul

I have updated and added some more photos to my Flickr set see the link above. The coal arriving in MGR hoppers was indeed discharged down by the river. Looking from the overbridge into Winnington yard on photos 10 and 19 the grey unloading shed was located down the end of the sidings and accessed by the right-hand fan of sidings. It is hard to pick out on the photos and I haven't found any other ones so I would guess I was trying to save my film to record the ICI hoppers, which we either long-time stored or being used internally to move backlime and coke around from the loading point back to the unloading shed. Cheers Paul

I will have a look through some of the photos that I took on the occasions that I managed to get around Winnington works and look at my notes. I recall that the limestone from the PGAs and also the backlime in the JGV hoppers was discharged in the shed around the corner as was coke that was shovel loaded into empty JGVs and these were unloaded via the same shed. As for the coal unloading I will check and see if my photos show anything but I think the unloading area was down by the riverside in the lower yard. Yes I have never come across much on the Wallerscote Light Railway or indeed the Gorstage branch and the yard at Hartford. I have a couple of photos and that's about it. I will try and scan some more asap. Cheers Paul

Hi Ed, following on from my previous email I have scanned some of my photos of Oakleigh Sidings and put them in a set on my flickr site here http://www.flickr.com/photos/34475484@N08/sets/72157642034415844/ The first nine photos are from 1998 and show the limestone and coal arriving in CAIB PGAs and EWS MGR hoppers. The tenth photo is from 2000 and shows that there were three lines passing under Winnington Road bridge. There used to be a lot more around 7-8 lines leading from Oakleigh Sidings down into Winnington yard but I think these were rationalised in the early 80s. Of the three only the middle and right hand lines were in use, the left hand line looking down into Winnington itself was rarely used at this point. Just under a year later removal of the now surplus sidings was well underway. The new JEA 102t hoppers and the new rapid unloading facility did away with the need for the EWS loco to park the loaded wagons in Oakleigh as they were now permitted to enter Winnington works under control off the site foreman once permission had been obtained over the phone by the Northwich shunter guy. Photos eleven to fourteen show the site clearance. I probably have some more somewhere just need to find them plus I have some b/w photos that I acquired with the negatives some years ago so I am guessing I have the copyright on these. These show the ICI hoppers and Buxton 37s in Oakleigh. HTH Cheers Paul 08:11 08/02/14 Editted to update link to revised photo set on Flickr

Hi Ed, I will attempt to scan some of my photos from Oakleigh Sidings in for you. Only drawback is my Epson scanner is at my parents house still and my PC is up here in Bolton and not any room for the scanner here damm. So will have to scan them on my mums PC instead and do it that way for now and bung them on a memory stick to bring them home. Going back to the traffic types in the early 1990s soda ash was still being transported by rail and used ICI Monds own PCA tanks or for the glassworks traffic they used Rockware Glass dark blue liveried PCAs. However this traffic had ceased by the mid 1990s and there was no outbound traffic thereafter. More recently two additional traffics were seen at Winnington for the old salt mines stabilisation scheme to pump out salt brine that was dispatched the sort journey to Middlewich works in EWS owned and refurbished TEA bogie tank wagons coded CTAs and inbound loads of power station fly-ash that would be mixed with cement to form a grout that would then be pumped underground. The fly-ash arrived in rakes of EWS MBA bogie box wagons. Great Tunsley Dale was an interesting layout to plan and build simply because we realised that we could realistically model only a small part of the actual Tunstead quarry rail workings. But that portion that we managed to model certainly captures the essence of the area well. Another chap Brian who I know through researching the ICI hoppers concurs with what Peter remembers seeing and Brian tells me that the basement archives where very extensive and all of the railway related material was held there in amongst other archives. But it all seems to have disappeared and no clues as to where it went or god forbid if it simply got chucked away! Cheers Paul

Hi Ed, there was lots more we could have put into the book originally but given that the book had already doubled in size to the final 112 pages we felt we had to stop somewhere! I can dig out my prints and scan some of them in from 1998 showing the PGA and HAA hoppers that were using the sidings at the time. Usually a pair of 37s would bring in the half train of PGAs from Northwich Sidings where it had already dropped off the rear portion of the train and shunted it back into Lostock Works. The wagons would be parked in the first loop and the locos would be released and ran off via the spur line that links the two halves of the yard. They would then either drop onto the rake of empties in the sidings. Similarly the loaded HAAs and empties would be dropped and collected in a similar fashion. The footbridge over the yard was a good place to watch on a Saturday morning when I started to visit albeit very belatedly on my part I just wish I had gone when the JGV hoppers were still running doh! As for the steam era I am not totally certain but I can find out. Given that the line was originally a through line down to Wallerscote works and worked as a branch there may have been a turntable that the steam engines used on the Winnington works site. Or the other option would be to turn the engines on Hartford triangle as you mentioned. Peter Midwinter aka trains12 who I co-wrote the book with had already done a lot of research on the ICI operations around Northwich and some of that was used in the book but it was intended for use with another publisher originally I think but for many reasons never got published so Peter kept the material. I know he did a lot of research down at Winnington in the old archives when it was still ICI and the puzzling thing is exactly where these archives went after ICI was divested into the separate companies in 1991. I have checked the archives and been in contact with a number of people but to date I haven't solved where all the railway archives went. Cheers Paul

Hi 9FEd, I am glad my book on the ICI hoppers proved useful. I have some photos of Oakleigh Sidings from 1998 somewhere when most of the sidings were intact and most were still in use for receiving limestone in the air-braked PGA hoppers that replaced the former ICI hoppers at the end of 1997. Fast forward to 2005 and the sidings and loops were reduced to just two lines forming a loop roughly in the middle of the old yard. And now no traffic at all. Mind you they will need to go and collect the sole-remaining JEA wagon at some point so there might just be one final working into Oakleigh to gain access to Winnington to collect the wagon. Cheers Paul

Ah that would be my book then hehe. Just beware that the Locomotion one is not an original ICI wagon, it was built for John Summers to a very similar design in that the hopper body was a few inches lower thus changing the angles of the end stanchions but the chassis is the same spec. 13 ex Summers/British Steel wagons were purchased by ICI in 1982 to replace wagons lost in accidents so it is important not to use these for scaling as you will end up with a slightly smaller wagon not much I know. The Roxey Mouldlings brass kit is also based on the Summers hoppers. Cheers Paul

Hi Barry, hmmm first I have heard about Mike Edge doing the hoppers........ not sure where he has got his info from so will watch with interest on this one! Cheers Paul

Looking good Barry O. ICI Hoppers hmmm they sound familiar lol! Well apart from the kits that have been done in the past in resin at present there isn't anything else. There is a proposed RTR version on the cards that I have helped with but as yet this has not got very far for reasons I am unable to comment on. I have some of the High Peak and Appleby Model Engineering resin wagons that with some fettling and mods give a good representation of the hoppers and they are usually seen on Hazel Valley owned and operated by Hazel Grove & District MRS and this has been on the circuit a good few years now and been all over to shows mainly in the North-West. Cheers Paul Harrison