pharrc20

Hi Grimleygrid, glad to be of help. I never really found out why they used the 4 HHAs in the rake as well they were loaded with limestone just not as much so you could only see the load properly from overhead as in the first photo with much running from side to side on the Peak Dale road overbridge keeping camcorder going, taking photos and writing what numbers I could down lol! Cheers Paul PS forgot to add in post last night as I read thru pad noticed that Hanson ex ARC JHAs were also being used from Dove Holes in 2004/05 at times. I can look for numbers and photos...

Hi Marcus, I have found the relevant notepads now ;-) I will start at the beginning from around the time the Freightliner hauled power station limestone traffic started running from LaFarge Dowlow. Sun 28/03/2004 Noted 4 x HHAs at Dowlow along with 1 green Redland PGA from 145xx range noted from Ashbourne main road Sun 04/04/2004 Same noted as above too far away to ID wagons Fri 09/07/04 Peak Forest 09.23 66608 + HHAs 370311 / 315 / 310 / 319 + 21 LF PGAs mix of PG012A/12B wagons with 1 PG009A series wagon some white mostly weathered to Eggborough PS Returned empty at 16.50 Thu 26/08/04 Peak Forest Up Sidings REDA 14796 parked in siding Then a little later at Great Rocks 66610 + 2 PGAs went to Dowlow poss ex Earles Sidings? Caught me out hence through the bushes shot lol! Time 13.00 Then later on 66610 returned with 4 HHAs 3710315+310+319+311 heading back to Earles Sdgs as 6Z51? Fri 01/10/04 Peak Forest Up Sidings REDA 14796 still there Mon 11/10/04 Hope Cement works branch siding REDA 14795 + 14838 stabled with stored wagons (BR Covhop & long time stored PCAs) Sun 13/02/05 Peak Forest Up Sidings Finally got to see complete rake of PGA with HHAs parked up for weekend due to engineering works on line 14812 / 795 / 831 / 836 / 809 / 818 / 784 / 792 / 768 / 760 / 770 / 752 / 773 / 808 / 815 / 811 / 793 / 757 / 794 / 750 / 816 = 21 plus 4 HHAs 370235 / 233 / 001 / 220 The next time I saw FL hauled PGAs in March 2005 it was a rake of VTG wagons the same as those formerly in Brunner Mond pool having been in store then brought back into traffic 14454 / 297 / 453 / 301 / 307 / 294 / 306 / 299 / 275 / 298 / 308 / 266 / 312 / 289 / 297 / 310 / 318 / 455 / 323 / 278 = 20 + 12 unids. I think this VTG rake was hired in to provide cover for the usual rake as by August the LaFarge & HHAs were back... Fri 05/08/05 PF noted 66551 with 4 HHAs + 20 LF PGAs Dowlow to Eggborough rake After that the HIAs were coming into traffic and these took over the power station duties IIRC. HTH Paul

Hi Marcus the consists will be somewhere will look tonight for photos and notes. What I do remember is that the rake also contained 4 HHA coal hoppers too and I recall seeing them come through Great Rocks and Peak Forest a few times heading out loaded from Dowlow to one of the Trent Valley power stations like Cottam. Cheers Paul

You called? The Tunstead to Northwich Brunner Mond pool of PGAs officially contained 112 PGAs drawn from 5 different batches: PR 14265 to 14319 (55 wagons) to PG013D Procor 1979 former ARC livery PR 14322 & 323 (2) PG015A Procor 1979 FYeoman. Note 14320 & 321 never personally seen in this traffic/pool PR 14324 - 14332 (8) PG016B Procor 1979 ARC livery. Note no 14329 prev scrapped? PR 14333 - 336/338 - 345/382 - 388 (4+8+7=19) PG013E Procor 1980 FY & ARC PR 14434 - 436/438 - 440/442 - 462/464 - 465 (3+3+21+2) PG013E FY. 14437/441/463/466 not seen A total of 113 so at least one added to replaced any withdrawn from the pool. As for the other Peak District PGAs the Peakstone ones were BRT 14600-627 (28) to PG005A Standard Wagon 1974 from Dove Holes quarry. The Tarmac ones for Topley Pike were prototype RLS 14705 PG011A Standard Wagon 1979 (1) plus production batch TAMC 14900-921 (22) PG011B SW 1979-80. Also used in the area mainly mid 80s to early 90s were ex salt hoppers from the batch PR 8204-8253 PG002D SW 1971. For a short time some of the rebuilt SW wagons from batch SRW 18500-529 were used from Dove Holes PG010B/C. As noted the REDA 145XX batch were used out of Dowlow for a while PG013G Procor 1980. Then later the main LaFarge PGAs to be modelled by Cavalex did make an appearance on gas desulp limestone traffic PG012A REDA 14750-780/781-786/800-839. I can find some consists using these wagons by delving into my notepads. HTH Paul

For me it has to be the mid to late 1990s when the 37s ruled supreme on the I.C.I. hoppers. I have many fond memories of going out to see them in and around Hazel Grove right up until the end when the JGV wagons retired from the mainline in Decemeber 1997. Loads of photos and notes but I regret not having a video camcorder to capture the magical EE sounds and clag as they stormed up the grade back to Great Rocks sidings. Cheers Paul

Yes working prototypes that sounds good. I already have an idea of the things I want to do plus a load of drawings and mock-ups I did some years ago and just need to get things going to have a go at making my first sheet of hopper bodies. I have some of the sheets that Jon Hall made for the petro-coke PAB covered hoppers that he developed and sold his spare sheets off plus his Tullis Russell PAA hopper also gave me further ideas of how I could produce my own stuff. Cheers Paul

I too have just taken the plunge and received my Portrait and intend to use it to make up wagon hopper bodies for several projects that I have been wanting to model for quite a long time. I will take my time and have a good read of the various threads again on here before having a go at drawing up the flat-pack bodies that I need and hopefully won't make a hash of it all! Cheers Paul

My photo above of former Tilbury PGAs at Peak Forest was taken in May 2002 on Sunday 2nd to be precise. All of the ex Tilbury batch were present except for REDA 14522 with 66208 at the Great Rocks end of the siding presumably coupled up and 66165 at the signal box end uncoupled. I would guess that they decided to terminate the empties at PF and lay them over there for the weekend until needed the following week. Cheers Paul

The 20 usually appears a couple of times and usually only brings short rakes of loaded 16 PCAs or 7-8 JPAs up the branch from the works. Empties are taken down the branch in the same quantities but I have on a couple of occasions seen the 20 marshal and split a rake of 36 PCAs into two halves using the headshunt and loop then draw forward onto the branch then set back onto the remaining PCAs and take the whole lot down to the works. I have a load of notes from previous visits that would confirm this. I have never seen the HTA coal hoppers being moved up and down the branch but I would imagine these are split into 3 rakes of six wagons for movement up and down as I don't think there is much siding space at the back of the works to take anymore than 2 rakes at a time one empties, one loaded but that is only a guess on my part. There is a footpath that takes you right round the back of the works on the west side and you used to be able to see into the back pretty well but it has been a good few years since I have walked the path. HTH Paul

Yep go up Bowden Lane but beware of the junction with Edale Road as the lane drops off down to the right. Follow lane up into trees then you will see ramp entrance ahead. Don't go up there that is for Freightliner/Network Rail. Turn right under the bridge then park up if you can opposite bridge so that traffic can still get around you. Walk upto steps near bridge and you can stand or sit at top near gate. Sometimes signallers will start end their shift via gate. You don't get much warning of trains on mainline but will see hear stuff coming off works branch and into sidings. HTH Paul

Yep it is worth a day up in the Peak even better if in a car as you can nip over to Earles Sdgs if quiet time at PF. A shame no more GB through PF now. Cheers Paul

Nice run through Marcus. I was up at Peak the other week on a Monday and it is quite apparant how they have had to adapt the operation of bringing loaded trains out of Dove Holes and into the long siding now that the loop behind next to the sloping hillside is no longer available. The track has been truncated just beyond the point and it seems to be partly ballasted over then the track lifted. I haven't seen the Great Rocks end of the loop for quite a while so not sure what they have done with the other point. What I do know is that once loaded trains are drawn down from Dove Holes quarry and the wagons are parked in the long siding, the loco now has to be released via the point connecting back to the Down Main (towards Buxton) and then reverses and travels light engine back along the DM towards Peak Forest South box effectively wrong line. It seems to be standard practise now still signalled under PFS box then the loco runs back onto the front either by going back onto the quarry line then reverse behind the dolly or across onto the Up Main to reverse behind the dolly outside PFS box then back onto long siding. Empties still do the time honoured reversal back along the UM and back into the quarry line and then sidings as set by the ground shunter. It is fun watching and hearing a 66 struggle pushing its rake of hoppers back when a 60 does it with such ease! Cheers Paul

Hi D9502 see your PMs Cheers Paul

Nice one. These PGAs were used from Dowlow on a Freightliner hauled flow of limestone for a while in mid 2000s and were often seen with 4 x HHA coal hoppers on this flow. I think the flow served Cottam at least for gas desulp. traffic. And sometimes the odd PGA would be seen at Peak Forest in the yard awaiting onward movement for repairs. Photos at home on pc. I have quite a soft spot for PGAs especially those with Peak District connections... any wagons really.

Looking forward to seeing the EPs

I know it always drives me bonkers when they are described as being ex-LMS wagons..... . Private owners from start to end. Only LMS involvement is that they ran on their rails along with the CLC but apart from that nowt to do with LMS. Cheers Paul

Hi Matthew, maybe not sure. Here is what was posted on FB "Probably something and nothing, but Hatton's Model Rialways (now in Widnes) has got the Early prototypes for the 4mm scale ICI (Ex-LMS) bogie hoppers (PHV)." Dated 23rd July. Cheers Paul

Fantastic photos Michael I always fancied seeing what it is like down there. Had a peek behind the Homebase some years ago and could just see the bufferstops.

Wow well done to all involved in removing RS8 from the NSC to Darley Dale. I visited RS8 some years ago following a works visit to Tunstead and I honestly could not see a future for the shunter given the condition that it was in sat all alone on it's piece of track. So it would be good to see RS8 again just need some ICI Hoppers for it to shunt around! Cheers Paul

As far as I am aware BR purchased the 13 surplus John Summers on behalf of ICI Mond by way of compensation for the 13 ICIM hoppers lost in accidents and derailments. ICIM then overhauled them to their own spec at Avenue Workshops and added the 13 to the pool of Roadstone aggregate hoppers. Some photos of the derailment on the Oakleigh Sidings branch curve appeared in my book on the wagons although the exact date I never did manage to pin down other than circa 1981. I did an extensive search through the newspaper microfiches held at Northwich library some years ago now and found nothing reporting the derailment. I did consider a house to house enquiry along the railway side of John Brunner Crescent but never did so. So to see the wagons near to your family home must have been an interesting sight especially the recovery of them. The John Summers hoppers only differed slightly in overall height being a couple of inches lower than the ICI wagons comparing two wagons together. The chassis length and width is the same, buffers differed, Summers unfitted and the 13 wagons gifted to ICI gained full vac braking as per existing ICI hoppers. Cheers Paul

Hi Marcus, according to my notes Upper End Bridge aka Pipeline Bridge was demolished sometime between my visit to Peak Forest on the 9th July and 25th August 2004. Annoyingly I cannot just find my photos from those two dates although my notepad says I took digital photos and video on my camcorder! The photo of the top and tail 60s is a diverted set of Brunner Mond JEA hoppers that were diverted to run via Buxton and the LNW line to Stockport then to Heaton Norris Junction where the train reversed and then ran via Northenden to Northwich. I certainly recall seeing those come down through Hazel Grove and after a quick train ride catch them at Stockport on their way to Northenden. And a reduced train of 17 wagons I think it was too usually HTH cheers Paul

Good. Check the small curved corner plates that are fitted between the corner of the sloping body-side/end and the large rectangular end support plate as these were not fitted to 3200-3319 from new according to the Chas. Roberts works photos. It is possible they were fitted from the 1950s or later to stiffen up the body-side. These small plates were fitted as new to the final batch 3320-3351 but you aren't producing these wagons as models. I will have to have a look through my hopper photos to try and identify when these small plates were added to the 120 wagons.

OK for the record the detail errors are as follows: Green wagon: As shown has Large size ICI letters and Diamond frame bogies. This is not a possible combination. The 84 wagons nos. 3200 - 3283 (00 + 01 - 83) built between 1936 and 1939 were built new with Diamond frame bogies with plain bearings with a plain axle-box front cover. The hopper body was fitted with Small size ICI letters. The C was more rounded as opposed to the more square C of the later wagons. The next 36 wagons nos. 3284 - 3319 were built in 1947-48 and were built new with Plate frame bogies with plain bearings. The hopper body was fitted with Large size ICI letters as shown on the CAD. The thickness of the letters on the CAD looks to me a bit too thick - maybe need to be half the thickness so they are not the same depth as the adjacent rivet strip flanges as shown. This therefore needs changing to Small ICI letters to be correct. Red wagon: OK apart from a query as to which era model this is from - if from late 1980s onwards then from my understanding virtually all of the 32xx number plates on the sole-bar (small white plate on CAD) and the CLC/BR (LMR) registration plates (right white longer plate on CAD) had pretty much gone by then but some wagons may well have slipped through the net retaining the reg plate and in some instances still had the Charles Roberts works plates too but again these had to my knowledge been removed. Ditto letter thickness. BR Timken roller bearings correctly fitted to the Plate frame bogies Purple wagon: Presumably this represents the post ICI wagons when they became owned by Buxton Lime Industries (BLI) as shown without any letters Small or Large. However, the bogies have the wrong bearing detail on them. They should be BR Timken roller bearings as per the Red Wagon to represent the wagons in their final few years on the mainline. This would not have the 32xx number plate nor the reg plate on the solebar as they had long been removed by the 1990s. So bogie axle-box detail needs changing to the roller bearing type. For the record, yes you can have Diamond frame bogies with roller bearings as all of the ICI wagons received them from around 1968 onwards until the whole fleet was converted. Minor details yes? It is often the simple, minor details that spoils models... The HMRS photo website has some scans of the original Charles Roberts works photos of some of the wagons including the first three built 3200, 1 and 2 and then 3203 showing the adoption of the hand-brake wheel in the middle of the wagon. The offset of this wheel on the CAD is correct as they were offset on one side as they were connected via gears connecting both shafts to the hand-brake wheels. 3203 http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/photoinfo.php?id=AAS826 3284 http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/photoinfo.php?id=AAT712 3295 http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/photoinfo.php?id=AAT717 showing opposite side to 3284 HTH Paul

Hi ews60002, they do at first glance look similar in the style of hopper body and the end slopes but the IIAs have an IWB (Intermediate Wheel Base) of 7743mm whilst the HIAs are shorter at 7040mm. The hopper doors look the same but the IIA ones appear longer, still a set of three clamshell doors like the HIA. The IIAs appear to have a longer gap between the bogie pivot and the end of the headstock and given that the IIAs are fitted with the TF25 style low-track force bogies with the additional dampening arm that might explain the length increase. You don't tend to get many IIAs up at Peak Forest coming from the Cemex Dove Holes quarry as DB Cargo have several rakes of HTA and HTA-E ex-coal hoppers doing virtually all of the bulk aggregates traffic except for traffic using bogie box wagons. HTH Paul