DCC Sound v Non Sound

[Phil Bullock]

The trouble is we know too much! We look at a model and our brains immediately say “Oh yes that is a HelHornAccumann loco fitted with such and such a sound file”. 
 

At least 95% of the population don’t see things like that. I have shown non believers videos of layouts on here and the response had invariably been that “If you had not told me I would not have known I was looking at a model”. They see the overall picture and well done sound is part of that …. It’s only us that the well recognised limitations sometimes offend.

[Andy Keane]

38 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

The trouble is we know too much! We look at a model and our brains immediately say “Oh yes that is a HelHornAccumann loco fitted with such and such a sound file”. 
 

At least 95% of the population don’t see things like that. I have shown non believers videos of layouts on here and the response had invariably been that “If you had not told me I would not have known I was looking at a model”. They see the overall picture and well done sound is part of that …. It’s only us that the well recognised limitations sometimes offend.

Phil

I think you are entirely right - when I look at the 2mm model of Tavistock I am gob-smacked. I showed some of this to my 32 year old daughter and in the end I pointed out the lack of smoke and steam as about the only way of knowing it was a mdodel.

But unfortunately it is ourselves that ultimately we have to satisfy - and I am always trying to nudge things a bit further - its part of why I do this mad thing at all

Andy

[The Black Hat]

On 04/01/2022 at 14:14, Andy Keane said:

So what do people think is the best that could be achieved on a GWR tank engijne in 4mm scale? Clearly the speaker is going to be small - not sure more than a sugar cube is possible.

Andy

Sugar cube can be possible. It all depends on the space in the model that your looking to have the sound fitted into and how the model is best to accomodate that. Howes do some fantastic Western sound files too. 

[AndrueC]

I only have one steam locomotive but it would be nice to have steam, sound and a flickering light box. Unfortunately in N-scale those are a tall order. However it turns out that it is possible to have smoke, sound and DCC even in N:

 

 

Unfortunately I think retrofitting a Farish Queen Elizabeth would be way beyond my ability if it's even possible. Out of curiosity has anyone produced a diesel that smokes? It might even be possible to create one that smells correct. Though I don't think there'd be much demand for it.

Edited January 6, 2022 by AndrueC

[boxbrownie]

38 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

I only have one steam locomotive but it would be nice to have steam, sound and a flickering light box. Unfortunately in N-scale those are a tall order. However it turns out that it is possible to have smoke, sound and DCC even in N:

 

 

Unfortunately I think retrofitting a Farish Queen Elizabeth would be way beyond my ability if it's even possible. Out of curiosity has anyone produced a diesel that smokes? It might even be possible to create one that smells correct. Though I don't think there'd be much demand for it.

Unfortunately the kind of smoke effect that engine is making is the kind that ruins the effect, Imdmire the chap for managing to fit smoke in an N model but TBH any smoke on a steamer needs to be of the “chuff” type rather than a continuous stream, that is actually more suited to a diesel at start up and hard work.

 

Smoke in diesels is quite easy in 7mm (I had one but gave up when the oily residue left so much film it looked awful) but so far haven’t seen it in 4mm diesels although it would be fairly easy if one was willing to mill enough chassis away inside to provide the room.

 

I believe in a few years (maybe not even that long) there will be smoke units that use water vapour/high frequency units to provide the effect, now that will be much more controllable.

[Phil Bullock]

45 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

I only have one steam locomotive but it would be nice to have steam, sound and a flickering light box. Unfortunately in N-scale those are a tall order. However it turns out that it is possible to have smoke, sound and DCC even in N:

 

 

Unfortunately I think retrofitting a Farish Queen Elizabeth would be way beyond my ability if it's even possible. Out of curiosity has anyone produced a diesel that smokes? It might even be possible to create one that smells correct. Though I don't think there'd be much demand for it.

There is this which I assume is 7mm

 

Over Peover

 

Pretty effective ! Now about that Accurascale Deltic…. 
 

Phil

Edited January 6, 2022 by Phil Bullock

[boxbrownie]

17 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

There is this which I assume is 7mm

 

Over Peover

 

Pretty effective ! Now about that Accurascale Deltic…. 
 

Phil

Yes, 7mm and I believe they use smoke units designed and built by themselves (the Club), the steamer still leaves a bit to work on (in so much as there is not enough smoke!) but the diesel effect is excellent.

[daveyb]

I think the problems with DCC sound were nailed by Melmerby on page 1 of this thread.  Tiny speakers in tiny locos sound tinny... you cannae change the laws of physics!  Real trains are felt as much as they are heard (at DCC volume distances) and there is no way around that lack of frequency range and air volume movement.  I have never heard a convincing DCC sound fitted loco, no matter whose file is fitted or what outline is being modelled.

 

Would there be a way to run a parallel chip fixed to the track feed with the same address where the sound outputs are wired to a decent amplified and speakers that are bigger than a thumb, possibly with some area or direction control by position sensing?

 

I simply cannot see (hear?) a time when the speakers will allow any form of reality in the delivery of sound.  It's like gloss, it just doesn't scale well.  I'm very happy to be proven wrong in the future.

[ELTEL]

Very interesting point and something I have considered trying.

 

I guess it would make sense to use the same manufacturer chip in both the locomotive and placed in or underneath the layout suitable amplified (In my case a 1st generation Bose speaker which I already have)

 

I guess a Zimo chip may be suitable, as they seem to do both sound and non sound versions of the chip.

 

Its a option for use in say a small industrial loco in either 009 or 00

 

Got me thinking……..

 

Terry 

 

p s 

 

Probably have to fund it by selling my Gn15 stock of goodies Locomotives, stock, kits, chassis even hand built points.

 

 

[LMSfan72]

Something this chap did do a few years ago:

 

https://loco-updates.uk/class-68/index.htm

 

see the end of the article 

Edited March 9 by LMSfan72

[Andy Keane]

I am in total agreement with @daveyb and the laws of physics. The sounds are not really like a real steam loco - they hardly could be. But I choose to use DCC sound because I find the sound of a silent loco even more troubling. To see trains trundling around with no chuffing breaks any form of illusion for me. But it is interesting to note that for some time people have used low frequency speakers fairly arbitrarily placed on TV surround sound systems. So maybe that would help - but this would mean having access to all the right sound files - the actual control and coding could then be attempted. Does anyone know if it is possible to extract the sound files in digital form from a DCC chip. Or maybe one could come to an arrangement with the suppliers for some sort of file to be played separately. I suspect the problem is copyright - once a set of sound files was in the public domain they would get pirated. But then again it is not clear how accurate a very low frequency chuff element would need to be - if I rocked up at SVR with a mic maybe any old engine would suffice?

 

[WIMorrison]

There are various utilities around that let you decompose a sound project to extract the files into wav or mp3 file. There are also utilities around that key you play these as if they were on a decoder, but from your PC. There is also hardware that will let you address the sound from you command station and play through ‘proper speakers,.

 

Google can be your friend 😀

[Harlequin]

There’s still a lot of room for improvement with in-loco sound generation.

 

Speakers are improving all the time. The way they are mounted in the loco and the sound path out is gradually being recognised as important.

 

Edit: You'd think most of that would be basic and well-understood by now but a well-respected manufacturer recently produced a sound-fitted loco with a plain sugar cube speaker, without a sealed enclosure at all, let alone of sufficient size to do anything useful and all that was buried in the centre of a tender with no air path out! It was noted as producing very poor sounds by many but amazingly other people applauded it for having "great sound". So it seems there's a long way to go in modellers understanding what good sounds actually are as well as all the purely technical improvements.

 

And, yes, you can break the laws of physics in this case! There’s a technique called “psycho-acoustics“ which makes the brain fill in the missing low frequencies to some degree. It could easily be applied to sound decoders but I’m not aware that anyone has done so yet.

 

Edited March 9 by Harlequin

[Chris M]

I can see why some folk like sound locos and understand their popularity. Its an interesting facit of the hobby.

I have to say that sound equipped locos don't do it for me. As already mentioned the sound is thin. Perhaps more importantly to me is that I like to hear the whole train passing sound.  The sound of a train approaching, passing and then fading into the distance is what does it for me. I find the sound of non sound locos which allow me to hear the train coming from a distance with a crescendo as it passes complete with clickety clacks over the pointwork and then the crescendo dies away into the distance is more realistic overall than the sound of a loco obliterating the sound of the train.

I do have some sound equipped locos for my garden railway. I quite like that because I can still hear the whole train as it passes and the loco sound slowly disappears as the loco goes to the far end of the garden. I also find the gentle chuffing of a steam loco goes very well with warm sunshine and a cool beverage. So for me - outdoors in big locos, yes, indoors in small locos, no. In general I prefer models of diesels to steam but I only use sound on my steamies. I love the sound of a diesel engine in real life but I find it gets a bit tiresome when a diesel loco is going round the garden.

[daveyb]

Just another thought... the further you get from the line, the greater the concentration of rail/wheel noise in the sound of a train.

 

It depends a lot on weather conditions, terrain, type of train (meaning fast/slow/passenger/freight rather than class or model type) but you get a bit of engine (if not electric) in advance, may be  some horn/whistle and then the greatest element is the rail wheel interface and the air reaction with lineside infrastructure.  At low speeds modern roller bearing wheel set emit a noticeable whirr whereas plain plain bearing tend to hiss(? best adjective I could muster).

 

I think the point I'm leading to, is that sound in the loco alone is not the full experience and we tend to miss that in concentrating on creating sound fitted locos

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Speakers are improving all the time. The way they are mounted in the loco and the sound path out is gradually being recognised as important.

Unforunately the size can't, due to the restriction of scale.

No matter of how much improvement, you'll never overcome physics.

No room for a horn loaded 15" speaker to reproduce the actual bass where a lot of real railway sound is..

 

 

Edited March 9 by melmerby

[jjb1970]

If people like sound then that's their preference, but I much prefer without. Melmerby has addressed the problems very well, particularly for low frequencies. I find it unconvincing and distracting. As well as the issues around trying to scale sound, I think every sound equipped layout I've seen has had volume set way too high creating a major incongruence between what is seen and what is heard. Although perhaps not as unconvincing as things like exhaust smoke.

[Railpassion]

Sound offers a new dimension. Having bought a Suttons 24 (with superb sound) a while ago, I'm finally able to run it as I've just gone DCC. 

Previously, to intensify the experience of playing trains, I'd eventually run the maximum number and bring out most of the stock. Now, the layout experience is transformed as station work, shunting, running round, has become far more pleasurable and realistic with a sound loco. 

My layout is a 9x11 double track roundy with a branch to a single track upper level roundy, so trains can stretch their legs. Each level has a return loop. 

In such a moderate space too many sound locos would be overkill. 

Once sound arrives, it has implications for layout design - less is more.

 

 

 

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Railpassion said:

Once sound arrives, it has implications for layout design - less is more.

I've got one sound fitted (from new) loco and that is one too many.

I've two other US diesels and I wont be converting them to sound.

It is a US outline diesel (H0), with a decent size speaker (about 25mm) in the fuel tank

The bell and horn sounds are OK. the engine note and dynamic braking sounds are a bit thin.

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

One of the really good things about iTrain is the ability to switch all sounds off in a layout with a single action or button. 
 

when helping people with their layouts this is often the first thing I need to use due to the cacophony of disembodied poor quality sound that are generally too loud is most distracting.

[Harlequin]

27 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I've got one sound fitted (from new) loco and that is one too many.

I've two other US diesels and I wont be converting them to sound.

It is a US outline diesel (H0), with a decent size speaker (about 25mm) in the fuel tank

The bell and horn sounds are OK. the engine note and dynamic braking sounds are a bit thin.

 

 

 

I hope you're not condemning the whole idea on the strength of one loco!

 

If the bass sounds are thin and weak but the higher frequencies are good then it's likely that the speaker is open to the air on both sides.

 

Factory fitted sound is often not the best that can be achieved.

 

The first factory sound-fitted loco I got sounded thin, unrealistic and disappointing. Since then I've learned how to install speakers for the best output. Decoders, speakers and sound projects have improved over the same period and I now have locos that make real rich deep sounds. OK, they still don't compare with the real thing but that smaller sound seems perhaps more "in scale".

 

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I hope you're not condemning the whole idea on the strength of one loco!

No

I've had to put up with the cacophony of unrealistic sound that emanates from many exhibition layouts these days.

 

I've yet to hear a realistic small scale =< 4mm sound fitted loco, especially steam.

The larger scales =>7mm are better because you can fit larger speakers, but the lack of bass really lets the smaller ones down.

 

Maybe it's an age thing, it used to be "bigger is best" regarding speakers for music, these days "portability is best" so music is consumed on the micro speakers fitted in phones.

Edited March 10 by melmerby

[Chris M]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

 

Maybe it's an age thing, it used to be "bigger is best" regarding speakers for music, these days "portability is best" so music is consumed on the micro speakers fitted in phones.

There are clever designs these days which means smallish speakers can be very good. I find weight is still a good guide to sound, the heavier the speaker the better the sound.

[ITG]

I’m sure it’s been said before, but when critiquing the realism of loco sounds on a model railway, not only is there the comparison of model versus real, but there’s  also the comparison with a silent (ie non-sound) loco. Obviously it’s all down to personal choice, but surely the silence of a non-sound loco is further away from realism than the effects of a sound-file generated one, even if it is “thin” (or any other adjective).

I run both steam and diesel sound locos (along with a number of non-sound ones) and without any doubt, when family and friends visit, the main talking point is the sound, and how it is perceived as realistic by my small cross-section of the ‘general public’.

As for myself, I do not consider myself to be any better than average when it comes to accuracy and realism of my modelling, and thus continually accept my own compromises, so I can certainly live with ‘averagely accurate’ sounds, as being better than none at all.

But I enjoy it all, and that surely is the point for every modeller, whether that’s sound or silent.

Ian

[WIMorrison]

Living around 150m from a real steam railway (albeit heritage) I am well aware of the sounds that are actually heard at that distance and the sounds are whistles and exhaust when pulling away (and the wind is in the correct direction) - otherwise you wouldn’t be aware that there is a railway line there at all.

 

The distance to the real railway equates to less than 2m in 4mm scale, or less than 1m in 2mm scale - yet I can often here shovels clanking from model railways at exhibitions when they are several metres from me.

 

Everyone is obsessed with the accuracy of their models at the appropriate scale, perhaps if they adopted the same obsession to the sound that emanates from their pride and joy - especially at exhibitions - there would be a greater acceptance of the ‘need’ for sound as greater realism would be generated.