DCC Sound v Non Sound

[irishmail]

29 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Living around 150m from a real steam railway (albeit heritage) I am well aware of the sounds that are actually heard at that distance and the sounds are whistles and exhaust when pulling away (and the wind is in the correct direction) - otherwise you wouldn’t be aware that there is a railway line there at all.

 

The distance to the real railway equates to less than 2m in 4mm scale, or less than 1m in 2mm scale - yet I can often here shovels clanking from model railways at exhibitions when they are several metres from me.

 

Everyone is obsessed with the accuracy of their models at the appropriate scale, perhaps if they adopted the same obsession to the sound that emanates from their pride and joy - especially at exhibitions - there would be a greater acceptance of the ‘need’ for sound as greater realism would be generated.

Thats one thing that always amuses me, people complaining about accuracy and minor details or livery errors but happily run '00' scale models on 'H0' gauge track! 

Used to have DCC sound but was not convinced,  Much prefer  hearing the sound of the loco and stock running on the rails. :)

Edited March 11 by irishmail

[newbryford]

On 09/03/2024 at 02:23, daveyb said:

I think the problems with DCC sound were nailed by Melmerby on page 1 of this thread.  Tiny speakers in tiny locos sound tinny... you cannae change the laws of physics!  Real trains are felt as much as they are heard (at DCC volume distances) and there is no way around that lack of frequency range and air volume movement.  I have never heard a convincing DCC sound fitted loco, no matter whose file is fitted or what outline is being modelled.

 

Would there be a way to run a parallel chip fixed to the track feed with the same address where the sound outputs are wired to a decent amplified and speakers that are bigger than a thumb, possibly with some area or direction control by position sensing?

 

 

Broadway did it with their Rolling Thunder system using the decoder to transmit to a receiver/amplifier

under the layout.

[YT-1300]

11 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Living around 150m from a real steam railway (albeit heritage) I am well aware of the sounds that are actually heard at that distance and the sounds are whistles and exhaust when pulling away (and the wind is in the correct direction) - otherwise you wouldn’t be aware that there is a railway line there at all.

 

The distance to the real railway equates to less than 2m in 4mm scale, or less than 1m in 2mm scale - yet I can often here shovels clanking from model railways at exhibitions when they are several metres from me.

 

Everyone is obsessed with the accuracy of their models at the appropriate scale, perhaps if they adopted the same obsession to the sound that emanates from their pride and joy - especially at exhibitions - there would be a greater acceptance of the ‘need’ for sound as greater realism would be generated.

I live around a mile from a railway which mostly carries freight, I frequently hear the prime movers toiling pulling the load up hill, its  a nice deep base rumble, and sometimes, if the wind is right, I'll hear the electric MU's power units.  

 

None of the off the shelf sound I've heard can replicate the depth of sound that I hear.

[WIMorrison]

@YT-1300 Completely agree, the deep-bass sounds that are heard in real-life at distance will never be created by any sound project, though a diesel model at the Scottish Model Engineers Trust last year came close to it 😊

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

I think its more popular now it has function on DC with the latest models,its where do you draw the line with some of the functions with DCC control.

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Broadway did it with their Rolling Thunder system using the decoder to transmit to a receiver/amplifier

under the layout.

Traincontroller has a +4 D sound system feeding 4 speakers from a 4 channel amplifier, where as the train tracks around the layout the surround sound follows it.

There are sound projects for various locos but AFAIK not to the extent of DCC sound projects.

Maybe you could somehow port them over?

[Chris M]

On a previous layout I edited some sound files to match my trains running by. These sound files were saved to my phone. I played them through a Bluetooth speaker under the layout. I felt this was very effective and gave pretty good sound. There was plenty of bass when using my best speaker, when the Hymek went past and opened up you could feel the ground shake which was a brilliant experience. Well it was brilliant until other members of the household expressed a somewhat different opinion.

 

Maybe it’s best if loco sound isn’t 100% accurate after all.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 11/03/2024 at 22:09, Chris M said:

Maybe it’s best if loco sound isn’t 100% accurate after all.

Coming from a lifelong interest in high fidelity sound reproduction, among the limitations on accurate reproduction of sound is the matter of those who don't want to hear it. I regularly found myself writing to remind others with the bug that before they lashed out on ambitious kit they needed first a detached house, (and should that be impossible, then a large investment in sound insulation) and to ensure approval of the family and any others they resided with.

 

I have to wait for the wife to be lunching with her friends before hearing Liszt's ideas on Faust's plummet into hell, among other works...

[MichaelE]

I try to adjust individual volume sounds to match what you might hear on the real locomotive. I was astounded when I heard my first sound locomotive six years ago. It hasn't lost its appeal in any way up to today.

 

The only sounds that might be louder than normal are station announcements and the opening and closing of electronic doors.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I know where you’re coming from 

I have a few Class 20’s which i fitted sound to, and they are great with that distinctive sound, however even if you just have the one operating with sound, it drives you bonkers after a very short while.

 

I actually like to listen to loco’s when they are just standing ticking over, i have a Class 47 which i like to just fire up and listen to ticking over, however, that too can get on your nerves after a while

 

I have off loaded a lot of my sound decoders recently, as believe it or not, i like to listen to music a lot of the time I’m working on one project or another through headphones, so it defeats the object really !

 

The addition of being able to fit sound to your loco’s is brilliant for the hobby though, and it really brings the hobby to life, but of course it’s all self opinion. Some like it, some don’t.

[melmerby]

On 17/03/2024 at 13:21, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I have to wait for the wife to be lunching with her friends before hearing Liszt's ideas on Faust's plummet into hell, among other works...

If I turned mine full up I would probably shake my fillings out with a nice bit of Bach's organ works.😄

Or a bit of Black Sabbath or other heavy rock.

I haven't even got the 200W sub woofer connected!

 

On 31/03/2024 at 21:12, DevilsAdvocate said:

i like to listen to music a lot of the time I’m working on one project or another through headphones

I've got a couple of bookshelf speakers connected to a class D amp for music when I'm in the railway room.

 

[DCB]

On 11/03/2024 at 08:09, WIMorrison said:

Living around 150m from a real steam railway (albeit heritage) I am well aware of the sounds that are actually heard at that distance and the sounds are whistles and exhaust when pulling away (and the wind is in the correct direction) - otherwise you wouldn’t be aware that there is a railway line there at all.

That is my problem with the present state of the ark DCC sound,    At a distance of about 5 metres the only sound 1369 made last week as she came past at Buckfastleigh was a very slight sound like a kettle apart from a bit of groaning from the wheels.  She accelerated from a stand with four chuffs and then shut off to coast past at a fair bit faster than I can walk.   The Hornby P2 with sound makes far more row starting light engine than Sir Nigel Gresley does starting from Goathland up a gradient with 7 on without any trace of a slip.    It's that lack of control over the sound which needs addressing and until the sound control starts controlling the speed instead of the other way round we will never get what I would call acceptable sound.

[Michael Hodgson]

Train sound depends very much on where you are relative to the train.  If you're on board, the main thing you heard back in the day wan't the chuffing engine, it was the wheels crossing over the rail joints.  If you're any kind of a distance from the line, you ony heard the odd whistle from passing trains.  If you're a bit closer, what you'd more likely hear would the clanking of loose coupled goods trains buffering up.  I think that's why sound-fitted locos don't sound right to me. 

 

The most convincing sound effects I've heard was when I was at University, just a couple of years after main line steam had finished in the UK.  One of the other students in the hall of residence had just bought a powerful new stereo system.  We rigged up the speakers facing outwards in two other rooms a good distance apart, opened the windows and turned off the lights.  He set it to full volume  and put on one of those Transaccord records.  The first sound was cattle gently lowing, followed by the faint sound of a steam hauled express approaching in the distance .  The train very gradually got louder and louder as it closed on the lineside microphone, there was an almighty a blast on the whistle, and then with a doppler change in the tone, the sound of the wheels as the loco and coaches passed and then gradually faded away into the distance.  Then just the cattle lowing again.  We were perhaps a mile from the nearest line, which was only used once or twice a week by slow diesel-hauled freight.  Heads appeared at the windows of many of the rooms opposite and lights turned on - I don't think any of them ever worked out where that train was!

 

I'm afraid sound decoders just can't replicate that convincingly for a visitor at the normal viewing point of a layout at an exhibition.

 

 

[Andy Keane]

Does anyone know what the sales figures look like for recent RTR locos, DC vs DCC vs DCC sound? I guess the sound fitted stock generates enough sales to convince manufacturers to provide these features but does it remain a minority sport?

[Ron Ron Ron]

17 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Does anyone know what the sales figures look like for recent RTR locos, DC vs DCC vs DCC sound? I guess the sound fitted stock generates enough sales to convince manufacturers to provide these features but does it remain a minority sport?

For sound fitted out of the box, the added cost over non-sound DCC (£100 plus or minus £20) is bound to dampen the uptake.

RTR DCC sound fitted at anything from £260 to £360 per loco is certainly going to restrict the market to a degree.

If the cost difference was very close, I imagine there’d be very high proportion of sound equipped sales.

 

When you break down the comparative costing of Hornby’s TXS sound decoders, the sound element is only adding approx. £25  compared to a non-sound decoder (Bluetooth capability also adds another (approx.) £15 to the cost).

 

.

Edited April 3 by Ron Ron Ron

[WIMorrison]

18 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

When you break down the comparative costing of Hornby’s TXS sound decoders, the sound element is only adding approx. £25  compared to a non-sound decoder (Bluetooth capability also adds another (approx.) £15 to the cost).

 But with the TXS ‘solution’ only fitting a minority of the models on sale, plus a limited range of sounds, they are not a solution that will match the needs of the majority of modellers.

 

The level of control offered by these decoders is also poor when compared to ESU or Zimo.

[Railpassion]

If you want sound at a future point, I think it's pointless buying a loco without it. The sheer cost of fitting sound to a DCC model is off putting. 

 

With sound there is an entirely new dimension to  operating. 

It's also possible to switch off the sound and run the traditional way.

[pheaton]

9 minutes ago, Railpassion said:

If you want sound at a future point, I think it's pointless buying a loco without it. The sheer cost of fitting sound to a DCC model is off putting. 

 

With sound there is an entirely new dimension to  operating. 

It's also possible to switch off the sound and run the traditional way.

yes and no....

 

In the early days of RTR DCC sound, both the sound files and implementations from the major manufacturers lagged serverely behind what the modeling community was achieving, and quite often you were left with a very mediocre representation of the real thing...which required further investment in either the speaker setup or reblowing the decoder with new files.

 

then you had the problem or issue where there was a period where Bachmann decided they would do away with full fat loksounds and issue RTR models with selects...which linited greatly what you could reblow them with, and this (in my opinion) did hurt the sales of RTR models (not seen any figures) but there was considerable backlash over the move at the time...

 

Now with the like of cavalex and accurascale RTR sound has really upped its game, to going from a feature of a model to a full blown offering. and theres also the point that both Bachmann have started to offer DC users the option of limited sounds.

 

Bachamann have also considerably upped there game recently with the project of RTR sound projects, the latest 37s and 47s  are worlds apart from the first versions.

 

personally speaking i still have bought non sound models with every intention of fitting them with sound later on.

 

 

Edited April 3 by pheaton

[Harlequin]

15 hours ago, DCB said:

At a distance of about 5 metres the only sound 1369 made last week as she came past at Buckfastleigh was a very slight sound like a kettle apart from a bit of groaning from the wheels.  She accelerated from a stand with four chuffs and then shut off to coast past at a fair bit faster than I can walk

A bit like this, then:

 

I only issue three commands here: Whistle, Lift the regulator, Close the regulator.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

13 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 But with the TXS ‘solution’ only fitting a minority of the models on sale, plus a limited range of sounds, they are not a solution that will match the needs of the majority of modellers.

 

The level of control offered by these decoders is also poor when compared to ESU or Zimo.

 

Quite so Iain, but my point was that if sound can be provided at a much lower premium (over non-sound), then the uptake would be much higher.

 

p.s. TXS isn't that bad either, especially considering the low purchase cost.

 

 

.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 03/04/2024 at 07:29, Andy Keane said:

Does anyone know what the sales figures look like for recent RTR locos, DC vs DCC vs DCC sound? I guess the sound fitted stock generates enough sales to convince manufacturers to provide these features but does it remain a minority sport?

I doubt you can get accurate figures for what is actually happening.  Most manufacturers onky offer 2 out of those 3 options.

If you want DCC but aren't prepared to pay for sound, you'll probably go for DC and then buy a decoder separately that you'll have to fit yourself (probably from a different supplier).  That's such a simple job on a modern loco that it should be within the capabilities of every modeller.  But the overall effect is that the trade don't know how many of their "DC sales" are really DC vs DCC non-sound.

 

The job of upgrading from DCC non-sound to sound is much less simple, and probably enough to deter many of those who would otherwise do so.  

 

It is interesting that a considerable majority of the sales on ebay seem to be analogue.    I wonder to what extent that is because people are upgrading from DC to either variety of DCC but don't feel able to fit decoders to older locos that are not DCC-ready, vs those who are changing scale/period or withdrawing from the hobby/deceased estates.  Those locos on ebay that are DCC seem to be either the trade offering new products merely using ebay as another outlet or the spivs flogging unused locos at inflated prices, so again they are DCC sound rather than non-sound.  So much so that if you want to sell a DCC non-sound loco, you probaby remove the decoder before listing.

[john new]

On 10/11/2021 at 15:14, TravisM said:

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here before but I wonder if there are many who are becoming a little disenchanted with DCC sound?  When it first came out, I was all for it and everything had to be sound fitted, but recently I've found it quite distracting.  I went to a friends house recently and he has a fair number of loco's, all fitted with sound and when we finished the running session, I was left with a headache.

 

I will admit that the quality of decoders, sound files and speakers has improved leaps and bounds compared to stuff released as recently as 10 years ago, so I have no issues there.  I just find that the default volume is set a little too high and if the loco stalls for whatever reason, the decoder usually has to go through the start up process.  I'm the first to admit that DCC sound has a rightful place but after watching several of Tony Wright's YouTube video's of Little Bytham, it's a joy to just watch the train running and listening to the clickity clack as it passes by.

Interesting thread. I am in the camp of tried it on a few diesels but not convinced it is worth it. One reason is that as I am not a trained driver of the real thing I don't know enough about the full size diesels to be able to appropriately utilise several of the function things the model comes with. Steam, not yet heard one that convinces me to trial it. I am buying locos now with DCC onboard but am still borderline as to whether I prefer it to my older DC control. Advantages on a roundy roundy with acceleration curves etc., but analogue far better for me on my shunting plank. 

 

Edited April 4 by john new

[rogerzilla]

The more I hear DCC sound at exhibitions, the less I want it.  You can't get anything other than a tinny sound from a model loco.  It could be argued that sound "scales" and would become tinnier, but that just reinforces the fact that it's a model.  N gauge sound is particularly weak.

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 09/03/2024 at 02:23, daveyb said:

I think the problems with DCC sound were nailed by Melmerby on page 1 of this thread.  Tiny speakers in tiny locos sound tinny... you cannae change the laws of physics!

 

An excellent point but should people adjust their expectations?

 

I don't expect something so small to sound the same as a full size equivilent because it isn't a full size version.  Just like when trains are going round, I don't get the vibration or woosh of wind or many of the other things.

 

It's just a compromise.
Which is the same with sound - and that comes from a semi-audiophile who wants quality over anything else when it comes with sound.
I don't expect studio quality  or proper balance from a tiny model train but saying that, I do want as much quality as possible from such a small sound unit.  And what is being produced in the last 6 months with that regard is pretty good.

 

Personally, I don't consider a loco if it isn't DCC.
And if there's no sound option, around the time of ordering I look to see whether there is a sound producer or if it's planned by someone.
If the model didn't come with sound, I would be a little put off as I want that option and I am happy to pay more for it.  But then my budget allows me to do that - I see some people blowing over £2000 on 20 Class 66's where as I am happy to pay £300 for one sound loco.

Edited April 19 by Sir TophamHatt

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 04/04/2024 at 11:25, Michael Hodgson said:

It is interesting that a considerable majority of the sales on ebay seem to be analogue.    I wonder to what extent that is because people are upgrading from DC to either variety of DCC but don't feel able to fit decoders to older locos that are not DCC-ready, vs those who are changing scale/period or withdrawing from the hobby/deceased estates.

 

Or those that want better looking locos?

IF I was ever interested in a Class 47 or 37, I wouldn't even consider the previous versions from Hornby and just get the latest ones.