Oh Hornby! Where did it all go wrong?

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It all went wrong when, to quote James May as best as I can remember what he said: "They stopped making toy trains for boys, and started making model trains for sad old men like me.".

Though I reckon that's probably one of those "chicken and egg" situations.

 

Hornby hasn't wholly turned its back on "toy trains for boys" but boys largely seem to have turned their backs on toy trains in favour of more "techy" stuff.

 

Hornby presumably saw the writing on the wall around the turn of this century, and began to reposition itself in line with contemporary market conditions rather than those of the 1960s and '70s.

 

Had they not done so, I doubt they'd be around by now.

 

John

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

 

About 10 years ago I bought a Hornby T9 for around £60.  The gears no longer engage so instead of being a bargain it has turned into an expensive paper weight.

 

FYI, the gears generally seem to be OK, its the bit that holds the motor in mesh with them that lets go due to Mazak rot. AIUI, no version (except possibly the most recent iteration of No.120) is immune.

 

I have four Hornby T9s and have (so far) had to fix one of mine (the first No.120) and a BR one for a friend. A second one of mine (BR) seems to be on the way out.

 

Having concluded that they will all fail eventually, from the same cause, I have purchased enough of the (non-Hornby) brass replacement castings to repair each of mine.

 

John

Edited February 23, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Oooh don't get me started on Die-soon, the triumph of marketing over engineering.

I'm with you.

I consider the bloke a fraud. Rather like Thomas Edison.

Possibly never invented anything but gets the credit for loads.

e.g. the "Bagless Vacuum Cleaner". The bagless vc existed before Dyson came along, his only contribution to the market was to develop a domestic version for British company Vax, for which he was paid (IIRC) £100,000.

He promptly went off and started his own company to manufacture it. He then sued Vax when they had the temerity to also produce the one he had designed for them!

He lost the case (not surprisingly).

He later sued them again when they refined it claiming they were infringing his designs. He lost again.

 

Where I previously lived the local electrical repair man swore by Dyson cleaners because the constant stream of repairs kept him in business!

 

[spamcan61]

5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I'm with you.

I consider the bloke a fraud. Rather like Thomas Edison.

 

That's the exact comparison I make; but hey, like I said, he's far richer than I'll ever be.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 Back to my poit above about 1957 Landrovers and Hornby Dublo trains. High percentages of these survive today relative to the percentage survival of cheaper toys, and cheaper cars.

 

However the average car today is far more reliable and the body won't end up as rusty scrap at 10 years like the typical car of 1957. (as always there will be exceptions.)

The Landrover in comparison was hand built from individual parts many of which are still available today meaning they could literally be a "Trigger's Broom", like a certain famous loco from 1923.

 

My Triang Princess Victoria had no detail, well undersize wheels, wheelbase all wrong, no valvegear etc. but had the pretty unburstable X04 motor, would run forever but ended up in the bin!

When it went I had literally worn the "tyres" into a hollow shape.

 

[melmerby]

56 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I have four Hornby T9s

John

I've got two of the orignal "Southern" Olive Green releases and so far touch wood both still run fine.

As yet the only Mazak rotted locos I have had were three Mainline, namely the 57XX (now with Bachmann Chassis), Mogul (Comet Chassis) and (possibly) Manor - soon to be replaced (hopefully) with an Accurascale one that's on pre-order.

The Manor has actually had to be removed from service with split wheels but I daren't dismantle it as the chassis will likely fall apart like the other two did when that happened.

[AndrueC]

I think like most things we've traded quality for accessibility. Yes someone could put the quality back in but not without restoring the price. Do we really want to have to pay £500 for a locomotive just so that our grandchildren can pick it up and wonder what the heck it is?

 

And speaking as an N scale modeller I doubt I could ever look back in time and like what I see (or more likely what I don't see).

 

The issue of end-of-life is one that needs improving for sure but it's not like we've lost something and gained nothing in return. If you look at what the typical household now has for gadgets/tools/toys would you really want to go back to the 1950s when owning a washing machine was uncommon?

[sncf231e]

I see no difference in running quality between locomotives from 60 years old and more recent; and when they run I cannot see the detail differences. Here a comparison of models by ACE, Hornby Dublo, Hornby Railways, Wrenn and Minitrix in 0, 00 and N:

 

Regards

Fred

[Nearholmer]

We seem to be discussing multiple, intersecting things at once here.

 

Yes, off course technology has progressed in positive directions, better materials, better techniques etc etc, but the “RAMD model train” question boils down to AndrueC’s point:

 

54 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

Do we really want to have to pay £500 for a locomotive just so that our grandchildren can pick it up and wonder what the heck it is?

 

The answer seems to be that most people don’t, they’d rather use their £500 to buy three or four locos of shorter life expectancy. 
 

But, some German chaps don’t take that view, hence Maerklin I think, and some British chaps don’t either, hence 00 Works, Ace Trains etc.

 

As for the generality of short-life, effectively irreparable, consumer products: the big, big, big, gigantic, huge, enormous issue is, of course, sustainability, or rather the lack of it. If resources were limitless, or everything perfectly recyclable, it wouldn’t matter a fig if all our “stuff” lasted five minutes, but resources aren’t limitless, and the proportion of stuff that is effectively recyclable is tiny.

[Dunsignalling]

55 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I've got two of the orignal "Southern" Olive Green releases and so far touch wood both still run fine.

As yet the only Mazak rotted locos I have had were three Mainline, namely the 57XX (now with Bachmann Chassis), Mogul (Comet Chassis) and (possibly) Manor - soon to be replaced (hopefully) with an Accurascale one that's on pre-order.

The Manor has actually had to be removed from service with split wheels but I daren't dismantle it as the chassis will likely fall apart like the other two did when that happened.

Some T9s seem to carry on running with the rot in the motor saddle quite advanced, it presumably depends on where in the casting the first fracture has occurred. 

 

The casting in the example I repaired for my mate was very far gone (about 40% turned to dust), and fell out as soon as I detached the body, suggesting it had been decaying for a long time. Running had deteriorated fairly gradually before the gears became unmeshed and it failed completely.

 

The one in mine was in three swollen bits, some of which I had difficulty extracting, with little dust. It had been running fine until the moment it didn't!   

 

John

[Il Grifone]

IMHO there is no comparison between a modern model and a toy of yesteryear (even though they still don't seem to understand M. Walschaerts' valve gear*). However there is a rather large difference in price. A Hornby Dublo Duchess cost about four pounds (about £100 in today's money**) and, unless she has been severely maltreated, still runs. The modern product is considerably more expensive and, while looking more like a Duchess, rather more delicate and unlikely to survive 70 years. There is every chance the Dublo product will still be around....

*One of my pedantic? points, but it just looks wrong!

** £1000 p.a. was considered a good salary back then. My first job in the late sixties paid me £10 a week less tax etc., but petrol was four gallons for a £1 with a free glass!

 

There is no excuse for zinc pest (not Mazak please, it's a reputable trade name and not guilty). The fault has been known since at least the 1920s and the cure since WWII. But we were warned about coal and global warming in the 19th century and asbestos and its side effects around 1910 and took no notice.... The "Overpopulation is your baby" slogan vanished with the sixties. A falling population is now considered a negative!

 

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

43 minutes ago, sncf231e said:

I see no difference in running quality between locomotives from 60 years old and more recent; and when they run I cannot see the detail differences. Here a comparison of models by ACE, Hornby Dublo, Hornby Railways, Wrenn and Minitrix in 0, 00 and N:

 

Regards

Fred

 

That is a dramatic set up demonstrating the different scales etc. Thanks for sharing.

[AndrueC]

22 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

The "Overpopulation is your baby" slogan vanished with the sixties. A falling population is now considered a negative!

Somewhat off-topic but world population is projected to peak over the next century or so and even now every country is showing at least some kind of decline in birth rate even if it isn't (yet) causing a falling population in all of them.

Edited February 23, 2022 by AndrueC

[Robin Brasher]

1 hour ago, sncf231e said:

I see no difference in running quality between locomotives from 60 years old and more recent; and when they run I cannot see the detail differences. Here a comparison of models by ACE, Hornby Dublo, Hornby Railways, Wrenn and Minitrix in 0, 00 and N:

 

Regards

Fred

The pre-nationalisation A4s and Duchesses have not got much lining so there would not be much difference in the appearance of the bodies over 60 years.  On the other hand there is a lot of lining on a British Railways A4 and the new Hornby models do look better than the tender driven Hornby models and the old Hornby Dublo models although they may not last as long.  I don't see why Hornby is charging the same price for 'Golden Fleece' and 'City of London' as there is a lot less work involved in painting the Princess 

Coronation class locomotive.

[Neil]

Where did it all go wrong?

 

Quality control.

An attitude of entitlement to certain prototypes.

Tiers.

Not holding spares (eg. Q6 motors).

Titgate.

Not fully capitalising on innovative offerings (industrials -  Accurascale make a range of coal wagons from chaldrons onwards) Why the delay to the 88DS?

Doing gimmicks like smoke rather than taking dead rail technology from the toy range, developing it and offering it in the main range - opportunity for genuine innovation.

[andyman7]

5 hours ago, AndrewC said:

40 years ago I worked an evening a week and performed all the Triang & Hornby repairs for a Canadian retailer / service partner. The so called quality control issues were just as bad then if not worse than today. Every single, and I mean every loco that came in new required an average of an hour of effort to make it fit for sale. Missing motor brushes, mis-gauged wheels, missing parts, jammed or broken gears on ringfield motors, disconnected wiring, etc, etc, etc. Rolling stock wasn't as bad but missing or fallen out wheel sets were common, as were missing coupler hooks. The shop eventually dropped Hornby altogether after being a retailer for more than 20 years as it was costing them more in my time to make them fit to sell than their profit margin. Compared to even crappy US Bachmann (botchman) or basic Athearn they were widely regarded as junk. Maybe the company just didn't give a crap and dumped their quality control failures on the foreign market, knowing full well returning the stock wasn't economically viable for the shops. 

In general, the quality of UK-made products in the 1970s could be pretty appalling. My dad got fed up with British-made cars that were forever breaking down and bought a Renault 12 in 1972 which went on to be the most reliable car he owned until buying a Honda Accord in the late 90s. For me, I remember constantly having to return and exchange Dinky Toys with bits that fell off or weren't painted properly, whilst every Hornby Railways item bought had to be checked to ensure it was properly assembled and didn't have any horrendous overspray or some other fault.

Hong-Kong made Mainline models were much more consistently made, but unlike the 1970s/80s Hornby models which I can pretty much endlessly repair, the Mainline ones tend to now display various fatal faults such as spilt gears, Mazak rot and so on and I often resort to making one good one out of two or three donors.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

Doing gimmicks like smoke rather than taking dead rail technology from the toy range, developing it and offering it in the main range - opportunity for genuine innovation.

It's in the toy range for a very good reason, it's cheap and nasty.

 

To produce the performance of current (sic) live rail technology in 00 is just not practical and wont be until battery technology has taken a light year leap forward.

Say 12v 200mA, a typical large loco with decent load is just not attainable for reasonable periods of operation  and in the size required to fit in a 00 loco.

[Metropolitan H]

Why do we all spend all our time bemoaning the iniquities of commercial concerns that try to make a profit from our desire for a fully detailed finescale model for a fiver?

 

Surely the name of our hobby is model railways and we are supposed to be craftsmen able to make the models that please us to run on our craft built layouts?

 

While I freely admit to delighting in receiving a good new toy, I am always concious of the fact that it is a "Short-cut" to the achievement of a good home made model of my desired prototype.

I do get a bit fed up with the expectation of many colleagues who bemoan the lack of detail on and performance of a relatively cheap model (toy) - especially when they have forgotten what a hard place the real railway was to work on.

 

I'll now get me coat and wander off to the pub for a pint of the local small beer.

 

Bye

 

Chris H

[AndrewC]

2 hours ago, andyman7 said:

In general, the quality of UK-made products in the 1970s could be pretty appalling. My dad got fed up with British-made cars that were forever breaking down and bought a Renault 12 in 1972 which went on to be the most reliable car he owned until buying a Honda Accord in the late 90s. For me, I remember constantly having to return and exchange Dinky Toys with bits that fell off or weren't painted properly, whilst every Hornby Railways item bought had to be checked to ensure it was properly assembled and didn't have any horrendous overspray or some other fault.

Hong-Kong made Mainline models were much more consistently made, but unlike the 1970s/80s Hornby models which I can pretty much endlessly repair, the Mainline ones tend to now display various fatal faults such as spilt gears, Mazak rot and so on and I often resort to making one good one out of two or three donors.

My dad was the same. He’d bought Austins from the same dealership from 1948 until about 74. The 1600 was his last straw. After that it was big Fords for him. Interestingly enough the dealership still survives but has been selling only Volvo since dropping Leyland in the mid 70s. At one time there were 4 British dealers but they all dropped the crap that was being produced. 

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Somewhat off-topic but world population is projected to peak over the next century or so and even now every country is showing at least some kind of decline in birth rate even if it isn't (yet) causing a falling population in all of them.

Ultimately, a fairly sizeable reduction in the world population of sapiens is the only thing that stands a decent chance of saving the planet. 

 

Trouble is, all the tycoons like Musk are scared stiff they will have fewer customers to flog stuff to and fewer workers to underpay....

 

John

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Ignoring the actual products themselves, Hornby don't do themselves any favours by starting arguments in empty rooms, witness the debacles of their selling policies and practices.

 

Mike.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Regarding earlier comments on prices, the HD locos at the end of production would be in the £100 - £130 range nowadays purely on the basis of overall price inflation.

 

23 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Hong-Kong made Mainline models were much more consistently made, but unlike the 1970s/80s Hornby models which I can pretty much endlessly repair, the Mainline ones tend to now display various fatal faults such as spilt gears, Mazak rot and so on and I often resort to making one good one out of two or three donors.

The very reason I gave up on my Mainline models. 

The only one I had which survived was a 2251 which 'got lost' during a house move and turned up about 15 years later. It had lain hidden in a cool, dry  dark place for that time and had never seen oil or grease in its life. All of the others were sold as bags of assorted spare parts.

[amwells]

If anything, ‘it’ is going to get worse for Hornby as the new entrants erode their product base further and further. It struck me at Model Rail Scotland that I picked up nothing made by Hornby, and most of the exciting future releases are nothing to do with them. 

 

it looks like Hornby are aiming at the simpler end, but no idea whether it’s viable at the market appetite (volume), price and cost structure to support
 

from a quick think (admittedly modern image bias as the market evolves, and focussed on what should be volume sellers in OO):

- 08/09 - Hornby’s is best but Bachmann’s is acceptable - unlikely to be at risk soon

- 20 - Bachmann have retooled and the ex- Lima version is only worth ‘Railroad’ status, but at what price?

- 24/5 - long lost to Bachmann at volume / SLW at top-end. No Railroad option (an opportunity for target market??)

- 26/7 - don’t think even the Lima version was reintroduced, so firmly Heljan territory

- 31 - about to be taken by Accurascale, leaving Hornby with two versions (one firmly Railroad) to plod on

- 33 - Railroad for Hornby, Heljan top end

- 37 - long lost to Bachmann and soon Accurascale. Ex Lima and Triang versions simpler end

- 40 - Railroad for Hornby, Bachmann top end

- HST - firmly Hornby’s. And starting to make changes to keep it at the top. Hornby’s to retain at the moment

- 44/45/46 - left to Bachmann and Heljan to fight over

- 47 - long lost to Bachmann and soon Heljan to enter the fray. Ex Lima and Triang versions simpler end

- 50 - while Hornby’s is the best, and I have a lot as a favourite class - the clamour for an improved version is loud!

- 52 - Dapol got the top end, Hornby has a couple of Railroad versions available

- 55 - long lost to Bachmann and soon Accurascale. Ex Lima version simpler (and inaccurate!) end

- 56 - like the 50 and 31, a decent model, but about to be overtaken by Cavalex?

- 58 - don’t think the Hornby version has been released recently (and would be Railroad), so firmly Heljan territory

- 59 - Dapol should get the top end, Hornby has the ex-Lima Railroad versions available

- 60 - Hornby, no risk of competition unless prices get too silly

- 66 - Bachmann have the market. Maybe Hattons will resurrect their mode to stay up there, but they are conspicuously quiet - Hornby in Railroad for what should be a flagship product

- 67 - Hornby’s but limited market?

- 68 - Dapol’s

- 73 - Dapol got the top end, Hornby has a Railroad version available

- 86 - don’t think the Hornby version has been released recently (and would be Railroad), so firmly Heljan territory

- 87 - top end and Railroad both Hornby’s

- 90 - Railroad for Hornby, Bachmann top end

- 91 - top end and Railroad both Hornby’s

- 92 - about to be taken by Accurascale, leaving Hornby with two versions (both Railroad) to plod on with probably the poorer version!

 

Then a brief look at multiple units and the Flirt seems like a bold move, but with restricted geography and livery options, one wonders why they didn’t go for the likes of the 180s now announced by RevolutioN

 

The EMU (especially 3rd rail) market is wide open, though Hornby do have the IET which will be the main express unit for decades to come I’d expect. 

 

So that basically leaves Hornby with all Railroad, + the 08, HST, 50 (for now), 60, 67, 87 and 91, with the IET set to sustain a market for years to come. Taking away the Railroad / simpler end, that’s a product range that is actually going to be smaller(!) than those of the so-called ‘challengers’ in about two years’ time… so rather than trying to aggressively protect products like the terrier or a single film based locomotive, I’d suggest that someone who has a greater interest in modern image at the company starts directing attention this way! Unless Hornby are happy to be seen to be the toy maker who expect that once done with them, the consumer will move on to buy from the model makers. 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, amwells said:

If anything, ‘it’ is going to get worse for Hornby as the new entrants erode their product base further and further. It struck me at Model Rail Scotland that I picked up nothing made by Hornby, and most of the exciting future releases are nothing to do with them. 

 

it looks like Hornby are aiming at the simpler end, but no idea whether it’s viable at the market appetite (volume), price and cost structure to support
 

from a quick think (admittedly modern image bias as the market evolves, and focussed on what should be volume sellers in OO):

- 08/09 - Hornby’s is best but Bachmann’s is acceptable - unlikely to be at risk soon

- 20 - Bachmann have retooled and the ex- Lima version is only worth ‘Railroad’ status, but at what price?

- 24/5 - long lost to Bachmann at volume / SLW at top-end. No Railroad option (an opportunity for target market??)

- 26/7 - don’t think even the Lima version was reintroduced, so firmly Heljan territory

- 31 - about to be taken by Accurascale, leaving Hornby with two versions (one firmly Railroad) to plod on

- 33 - Railroad for Hornby, Heljan top end

- 37 - long lost to Bachmann and soon Accurascale. Ex Lima and Triang versions simpler end

- 40 - Railroad for Hornby, Bachmann top end

- HST - firmly Hornby’s. And starting to make changes to keep it at the top. Hornby’s to retain at the moment

- 44/45/46 - left to Bachmann and Heljan to fight over

- 47 - long lost to Bachmann and soon Heljan to enter the fray. Ex Lima and Triang versions simpler end

- 50 - while Hornby’s is the best, and I have a lot as a favourite class - the clamour for an improved version is loud!

- 52 - Dapol got the top end, Hornby has a couple of Railroad versions available

- 55 - long lost to Bachmann and soon Accurascale. Ex Lima version simpler (and inaccurate!) end

- 56 - like the 50 and 31, a decent model, but about to be overtaken by Cavalex?

- 58 - don’t think the Hornby version has been released recently (and would be Railroad), so firmly Heljan territory

- 59 - Dapol should get the top end, Hornby has the ex-Lima Railroad versions available

- 60 - Hornby, no risk of competition unless prices get too silly

- 66 - Bachmann have the market. Maybe Hattons will resurrect their mode to stay up there, but they are conspicuously quiet - Hornby in Railroad for what should be a flagship product

- 67 - Hornby’s but limited market?

- 68 - Dapol’s

- 73 - Dapol got the top end, Hornby has a Railroad version available

- 86 - don’t think the Hornby version has been released recently (and would be Railroad), so firmly Heljan territory

- 87 - top end and Railroad both Hornby’s

- 90 - Railroad for Hornby, Bachmann top end

- 91 - top end and Railroad both Hornby’s

- 92 - about to be taken by Accurascale, leaving Hornby with two versions (both Railroad) to plod on with probably the poorer version!

 

Then a brief look at multiple units and the Flirt seems like a bold move, but with restricted geography and livery options, one wonders why they didn’t go for the likes of the 180s now announced by RevolutioN

 

The EMU (especially 3rd rail) market is wide open, though Hornby do have the IET which will be the main express unit for decades to come I’d expect. 

 

So that basically leaves Hornby with all Railroad, + the 08, HST, 50 (for now), 60, 67, 87 and 91, with the IET set to sustain a market for years to come. Taking away the Railroad / simpler end, that’s a product range that is actually going to be smaller(!) than those of the so-called ‘challengers’ in about two years’ time… so rather than trying to aggressively protect products like the terrier or a single film based locomotive, I’d suggest that someone who has a greater interest in modern image at the company starts directing attention this way! Unless Hornby are happy to be seen to be the toy maker who expect that once done with them, the consumer will move on to buy from the model makers. 

 

Up until yesterday, I'd have agreed with nearly all of that.

 

Then Rapido announced their Highland Railway Jones Goods, with a projected price almost forty quid less than the recently announced, and reasonably comparable, new Black Five from Hornby.

 

The big differential (around 20%) suggests that Rapido might also be capable of improving on Hornby's best diesel and electric models at equal or lower prices, meaning that nothing in the Hornby range may be entirely safe.

 

Therefore, even Hornby's upgrade to the HST may not scotch a competing model. However, I reckon (and the competition in general have probably calculated) that, at current prices, it's something of a  "cash cow" for Hornby. If push really came to shove, they could probably knock quite a bit off before it really hurt. Will that be enough to deter a rival offer? We shall see.

 

Even without any fallout from "Titgate", I think Rapido will continue to cause sleepless nights in Margate.

 

John

Edited February 26, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[ikks]

On 24/02/2022 at 00:14, melmerby said:

I'm with you.

I consider the bloke a fraud. Rather like Thomas Edison.

Possibly never invented anything but gets the credit for loads.

e.g. the "Bagless Vacuum Cleaner". The bagless vc existed before Dyson came along, his only contribution to the market was to develop a domestic version for British company Vax, for which he was paid (IIRC) £100,000.

He promptly went off and started his own company to manufacture it. He then sued Vax when they had the temerity to also produce the one he had designed for them!

He lost the case (not surprisingly).

He later sued them again when they refined it claiming they were infringing his designs. He lost again.

 

Where I previously lived the local electrical repair man swore by Dyson cleaners because the constant stream of repairs kept him in business!

 

I purchased a Die-Soon pet efficient vac 5 years or so ago, the blxxdy thing goes for about ten minutes before it needs to be taken apart, cleaned out and started again, it blocks at the head and the intake into the cylinder very quickly. In my view, a very poorly designed piece of equipment. My 35 year old VAX 4000 has no such issues, it's just a pain to drag around.............Sorry to go off topic, will shut up now!!

 

Mike