DP1 Deltic prototype

[Great Eastern]

DP1

 

I wonder if anyone can help me with this ‘quest’, it concerns DP1 when it was under construction at the Dick Kerr works in Preston.

 I daresay you’ve heard the story about Lord Nelson (the chairman of English Electric, not the nautical one) and his wife Lady Nelson (not Lady Hamilton !) who visited the works and disliked the paint job. Anyway, for anyone who hasn’t heard the story, the most complete one I’ve heard goes like this (briefly).  They commented that the house colours of English Electric; dark green and cream, made it look like a cooker. The person they were talking to (I think the works manager ??) asked what colour they should paint it, Lord Nelson turned to his wife and said that as she was a woman she would know about arty things like this (not very PC !!!).  So she said why don’t you do it in a lovely blue. The works manager, not wanting to get caught out twice said well there’s lots of blues, so she fished about in her handbag and pulled out a powder compact with a Wedgwood blue casing and handed it to him saying here do it like that, so they matched the paint to it.

Anyway my question concerns this original green and cream livery. Back in the 1980’s I found a book in Leicester central library about the Deltics, in it was a photograph of DP1 obviously still under construction taken at an angle from a gantry looking down at so you could see the front and one side, it was black and white but the picture clearly showed a two tone livery. The caption said that it was the house colours of English Electric; dark green and cream. From memory the bottom 2/3rds were in the dark green and the upper 1/3rd  in the cream. The roof doors were still open and it appeared like the engines were yet to be installed, also I think the cab was still being fitted out. There are various photos of DP1 being built, chassis framework, etc, so it should be that there were photos of the paintwork. 

At the time I didn’t realise how important/rare/unique ? this picture was. A few months later when I did, I returned to the library and hunted for it, on several occasions, with various librarians and they were forced to conclude that it had been nicked !!! Unfortunately, I don’t know the title etc of the book ! What I can say is that it was an older book then (I think probably 60’s).  It was LIKE a David and Charles book, ie the format, the look of it, but then some Ian Allen books of the period were too. I think it had Deltic in the title, and I seem to remember it had the Baby Deltics in it too. It’s not the Brian Webb book, as it’s too recent, nor do I think it’s the 1977 English Electric book, unless it was some first edition I’ve not found !  However, what I need to know is if anybody else has seen this photograph reproduced anywhere please?  I should also say that I have, of course, checked every Deltic book/ English Electric book I’ve ever seen since, and I spoke to the NRM, including to the chap who procured the Bachmann DP1 models, (we talked about the possibility of replicating the livery). So far I’ve not even found any reference to the picture. Can anybody help please ?

[Bucoops]

Clutching, but this mentions a book by Brian Reed - http://www.madeinpreston.co.uk/Rail/deltic.html

 

[Great Eastern]

Hi Bucoops,

Many thanks for that I'll check it out. Even if it's not that book it may lead on elsewhere. Also there's a link to the author who may know something.

 

GE

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Great Eastern said:

So she said why don’t you do it in a lovely blue. The works manager, not wanting to get caught out twice said well there’s lots of blues, so she fished about in her handbag and pulled out a powder compact with a Wedgwood blue casing and handed it to him saying here do it like that, so they matched the paint to it.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but - surely the proper name for DP1 blue is POWDER BLUE.

 

CJI.

 

PS. Correcting myself - powder blue is too pale.

Edited July 7, 2022 by cctransuk

[Great Eastern]

You are quite right it's known as powder blue, even though that's not exactly the colour.  I assumed the powder name came from the contents rather than the casing.

Perhaps 'Wedgwood' blue  OR  Wedgwoody blue would have been better.

GE

Edited July 7, 2022 by Great Eastern

[Moxy]

I don't know if this is the book you're looking for

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30732678004&searchurl=an%3Dcooper%2Bsmith%2Bjohn%26n%3D100121503%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Ddeltic%2Bpictorial&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

 

Right sort of vintage. No copies listed as available in the UK unfortunately.

[john new]

A few questions which are I hope sufficiently DELTIC/ DP1 related to not be off topic.

 

1) Is DELTIC still capable of being hauled by rail? I recall it was on loan/display at the Ribble railway for a while but in the most recent move I’ve seen photos of it was going back from a loan and into Shildon on a road trailer. 

 

2) if it is being hauled by another diesel does it need a barrier vehicle and what would that be?

 

3) Would a brake vehicle be needed as tail end Charlie? 
 

As I only have a small layout running my new Accurascale KOYLI plus an non-motorised Dapol DELTIC  as a museum placement movement for an open day is just about within credibility. I know KOYLI has been the NRM’s towing loco of choice in the past even if it isn’t used for that currently. Rule 1, ignoring weight limits etc, can stretch that far

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by john new
Clarity of one of the points made.

[hexagon789]

52 minutes ago, Moxy said:

I don't know if this is the book you're looking for

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30732678004&searchurl=an%3Dcooper%2Bsmith%2Bjohn%26n%3D100121503%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Ddeltic%2Bpictorial&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

 

Right sort of vintage. No copies listed as available in the UK unfortunately.

There are two copies of that on Amazon from UK sellers, both £10.

 

Or there's a copy on eBay at £8 from a seller in Plymouth.

 

(Just in case that is the book in question and the OP wishes to obtain a copy.)

 

I find AbeBooks is exceedingly slow at updating listings properly, to the point that manually searching eBay, Anazon etc is usually faster and more accurate as to what is presently available.

 

[john new]

6 hours ago, Great Eastern said:

DP1

 

I wonder if anyone can help me with this ‘quest’, it concerns DP1 when it was under construction at the Dick Kerr works in Preston.

 I daresay you’ve heard the story about Lord Nelson (the chairman of English Electric, not the nautical one) and his wife Lady Nelson (not Lady Hamilton !) who visited the works and disliked the paint job. Anyway, for anyone who hasn’t heard the story, the most complete one I’ve heard goes like this (briefly).  They commented that the house colours of English Electric; dark green and cream, made it look like a cooker. The person they were talking to (I think the works manager ??) asked what colour they should paint it, Lord Nelson turned to his wife and said that as she was a woman she would know about arty things like this (not very PC !!!).  So she said why don’t you do it in a lovely blue. The works manager, not wanting to get caught out twice said well there’s lots of blues, so she fished about in her handbag and pulled out a powder compact with a Wedgwood blue casing and handed it to him saying here do it like that, so they matched the paint to it.

Anyway my question concerns this original green and cream livery. Back in the 1980’s I found a book in Leicester central library about the Deltics, in it was a photograph of DP1 obviously still under construction taken at an angle from a gantry looking down at so you could see the front and one side, it was black and white but the picture clearly showed a two tone livery. The caption said that it was the house colours of English Electric; dark green and cream. From memory the bottom 2/3rds were in the dark green and the upper 1/3rd  in the cream. The roof doors were still open and it appeared like the engines were yet to be installed, also I think the cab was still being fitted out. There are various photos of DP1 being built, chassis framework, etc, so it should be that there were photos of the paintwork. 

At the time I didn’t realise how important/rare/unique ? this picture was. A few months later when I did, I returned to the library and hunted for it, on several occasions, with various librarians and they were forced to conclude that it had been nicked !!! Unfortunately, I don’t know the title etc of the book ! What I can say is that it was an older book then (I think probably 60’s).  It was LIKE a David and Charles book, ie the format, the look of it, but then some Ian Allen books of the period were too. I think it had Deltic in the title, and I seem to remember it had the Baby Deltics in it too. It’s not the Brian Webb book, as it’s too recent, nor do I think it’s the 1977 English Electric book, unless it was some first edition I’ve not found !  However, what I need to know is if anybody else has seen this photograph reproduced anywhere please?  I should also say that I have, of course, checked every Deltic book/ English Electric book I’ve ever seen since, and I spoke to the NRM, including to the chap who procured the Bachmann DP1 models, (we talked about the possibility of replicating the livery). So far I’ve not even found any reference to the picture. Can anybody help please ?

Does the image here help or muddy the issue further? See https://twsmedia.co.uk/2018/03/01/english-electric-a-centenary-appreciation/. It looks to be painted a much darker colour than the later light blue it left the factory in but to my eye looks mono tone apart from the silver roof.  A Google images search brings up a couple of other shots of it inside the works where it is quite clearly in light blue.

 

NB only a link posted as not sure if it is in copyright, probably still is rather than having been released under Creative Commons.

[hexagon789]

8 minutes ago, john new said:

Does the image here help or muddy the issue further? See https://twsmedia.co.uk/2018/03/01/english-electric-a-centenary-appreciation/. It looks to be painted a much darker colour than the later light blue it left the factory in but to my eye looks mono tone apart from the silver roof.  A Google images search brings up a couple of other shots of it inside the works where it is quite clearly in light blue.

 

NB only a link posted as not sure if it is in copyright, probably still is rather than having been released under Creative Commons.

I suspect its the lighting, this one looks a bit darker but it's definitely the well-known powder blue:

 

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/0221.htm

[PerthBox]

Please correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the proper official name for the loco is just DELTIC and referring to it as DP1 is something that was only adopted by enthusiasts after the appearance of DP2.

[hexagon789]

8 hours ago, PerthBox said:

Please correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the proper official name for the loco is just DELTIC and referring to it as DP1 is something that was only adopted by enthusiasts after the appearance of DP2.

Difficult to say, some sources give her the number as built, others later. Either way, she never carried "DP1" on the bodyside.

 

 

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, Moxy said:

I don't know if this is the book you're looking for

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30732678004&searchurl=an%3Dcooper%2Bsmith%2Bjohn%26n%3D100121503%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Ddeltic%2Bpictorial&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

 

Right sort of vintage. No copies listed as available in the UK unfortunately.

Why assume one website knows all?

 

Janes Rare books and Spring books UK both have copies

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deltic-Pictorial-John-Cooper-Smith/dp/B01B50UN1E/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1GK69RDIXDI1W&keywords=deltic+pictorial+-+book&qid=1657266447&sprefix=deltic+pictorial+-+book%2Caps%2C80&sr=8-3

 

Click on 2 used from £10

[MarkC]

11 hours ago, john new said:

A few questions which are I hope sufficiently DELTIC/ DP1 related to not be off topic.

 

1) Is DELTIC still capable of being hauled by rail? I recall it was on loan/display at the Ribble railway for a while but in the most recent move I’ve seen photos of it was going back from a loan and into Shildon on a road trailer. 

 

2) if it is being hauled by another diesel does it need a barrier vehicle and what would that be?

 

3) Would a brake vehicle be needed as tail end Charlie? 
 

As I only have a small layout running my new Accurascale KOYLI plus an non-motorised Dapol DELTIC  as a museum placement movement for an open day is just about within credibility. I know KOYLI has been the NRM’s towing loco of choice in the past even if it isn’t used for that currently. Rule 1, ignoring weight limits etc, can stretch that far

 

AFAIK, John, DELTIC isn't approved to be moved by rail on NR metals. She would need, at a minimum, to have the axles ultrasonically tested & the running gear carefully examined. Some fittings may make her 'out of gauge' as she stands too - are her horns refitted on the roof, for example? Steps?

 

If her braking system is inoperative then enough vehicles would need to be attached to give sufficient brake force. A barrier vehicle between towing locomotive & DELTIC wouldn't be required though.

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

AFAIK, John, DELTIC isn't approved to be moved by rail on NR metals. She would need, at a minimum, to have the axles ultrasonically tested & the running gear carefully examined. Some fittings may make her 'out of gauge' as she stands too - are her horns refitted on the roof, for example? Steps?

 

If her braking system is inoperative then enough vehicles would need to be attached to give sufficient brake force. A barrier vehicle between towing locomotive & DELTIC wouldn't be required though.

Mechanically she is in as withdrawn condition. Note she does not have the same engines the production Deltics had for one, and those engines had bits removed to provide spares for the Royal Navy before the loco was released for preservation to the Science Museum. (She wasn't owned by BR, so EE probably decided that they could at least recoup some money by removing certain internal parts that wouldn't be externally visible).

[john new]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

AFAIK, John, DELTIC isn't approved to be moved by rail on NR metals. She would need, at a minimum, to have the axles ultrasonically tested & the running gear carefully examined. Some fittings may make her 'out of gauge' as she stands too - are her horns refitted on the roof, for example? Steps?

 

If her braking system is inoperative then enough vehicles would need to be attached to give sufficient brake force. A barrier vehicle between towing locomotive & DELTIC wouldn't be required though.

Thanks for that, I guess a depot shunt at fictional representation of somewhere like Barrow Hill/a preserved not N Rail branch line is about as close to what I was hoping for as can be got away with.

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

Mechanically she is in as withdrawn condition. Note she does not have the same engines the production Deltics had for one, and those engines had bits removed to provide spares for the Royal Navy before the loco was released for preservation to the Science Museum. (She wasn't owned by BR, so EE probably decided that they could at least recoup some money by removing certain internal parts that wouldn't be externally visible).

Yes, I knew that the engines were basically shells, & the marine-spec engines were a little different to the ones fitted to the 22 Class 55s. That one comes up regularly when some bright spark starts wibbling on about putting the big blue beastie back into running order...

 

I very much doubt that you would even be able to pull a vacuum on the brakes, tbh, if nothing's been touched since before she went into the Science Museum. All the seals will be rotten, I would think.

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Yes, I knew that the engines were basically shells, & the marine-spec engines were a little different to the ones fitted to the 22 Class 55s. That one comes up regularly when some bright spark starts wibbling on about putting the big blue beastie back into running order...

No problem, not everyone is aware of it!

 

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

I very much doubt that you would even be able to pull a vacuum on the brakes, tbh, if nothing's been touched since before she went into the Science Museum. All the seals will be rotten, I would think.

I know there was some cosmetic work, but it seems to be very difficult to ascertain what exactly that covered. Given its unlikely she'll move under her own power, certainly for the foreseeable future if not for ever, I presume it mainly dealt with external appearance and the cabs - ie those places people see.

[Great Eastern]

Hi All,

Many thanks for your interest and posts. I will check out the book you mention, but I seem to remember the cover, so I may have seen it already. Also it is a bit more modern than the one I saw, but of course it may still have the piccy in it.

GE

[Great Eastern]

Hi Bucoops,

 I'm afraid I couldn't get anywhere with the author link on that page, it's probably too old. However many thanks anyway. I'll try the 1950's books but I'm pretty sure the book I saw had Deltic in the title. I've seen the later 70's ones, I had one edition myself. Brian Reed isn't someone I've investigated so thanks for that, it's another avenue to explore.

GE

[Barclay]

I'm fairly sure the Brian Webb book by David and Charles does contain an image of it in green/cream as I have seen such a photo many years ago and this was the only book on the subject I would have read back in the day. Caveat - Like you I borrowed it from the library and am relying on 40 year old memories so am unable to confirm this !

[Wickham Green too]

The other thing to bear in mind is that publishers often touched-up photos in those days so they may not show what the should  -  "Modern Locomotives" by Brian Reed and published by Temple Press Limited ( undated, but presumably 1948 ) has a clear broadside photo of loco 66110 freshly repainted black with Gill Sans 'British Railways' on the tankside ............. whether it actually carried that livery I don't know - but I've no doubt it retained a four-digit cast numberplate into and throughout it B.R. career.

( The coloured frontispiece is a painting of "King Henry VII" numbered 66014.)

[jim.snowdon]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

The other thing to bear in mind is that publishers often touched-up photos in those days so they may not show what the should  -  "Modern Locomotives" by Brian Reed and published by Temple Press Limited ( undated, but presumably 1948 ) has a clear broadside photo of loco 66110 freshly repainted black with Gill Sans 'British Railways' on the tankside ............. whether it actually carried that livery I don't know - but I've no doubt it retained a four-digit cast numberplate into and throughout it B.R. career.

( The coloured frontispiece is a painting of "King Henry VII" numbered 66014.)

Assuming that the loco in question is actually 6110, plain black with 'British Railways' on the tank sides is quite legitimate for an early 1948 repaint. It took some months, into 1949 I think, before BR settled upon the early totem. It is around this time that some locomotives appeared from Swindon bearing the full 'British Railways' title rendered in the GWR's Egyptian Serif font. Similar things happened on the Southern.

 

[Wickham Green too]

Yes, I am assuming the loco in question is actually 6110 - it's certainly an ex G.W.R. 'Large Prairie' ( they all look the same, of course ) - and yes I am happy that all regions were painting such motive power in that style for a few months ............. BUT so far as I know there was never a suggestion that Western Region locos should receive a '6' prefix to their previous numbers. 

[Titan]

On 08/07/2022 at 12:28, MarkC said:

Yes, I knew that the engines were basically shells, & the marine-spec engines were a little different to the ones fitted to the 22 Class 55s. That one comes up regularly when some bright spark starts wibbling on about putting the big blue beastie back into running order...

 

I very much doubt that you would even be able to pull a vacuum on the brakes, tbh, if nothing's been touched since before she went into the Science Museum. All the seals will be rotten, I would think.

 

On 08/07/2022 at 14:07, hexagon789 said:

No problem, not everyone is aware of it!

 

I know there was some cosmetic work, but it seems to be very difficult to ascertain what exactly that covered. Given its unlikely she'll move under her own power, certainly for the foreseeable future if not for ever, I presume it mainly dealt with external appearance and the cabs - ie those places people see.

 

Well...

 

The DPS some time ago purchased a pair of complete series one Deltics, of the exact type that were used in the prototype - Class 55 used series 2. If the phasing gearcases of the prototype are not missing anything, then all the parts exist to get the power units into running condition.  Still won't be all that cheap or easy since I would expect the generators at least would require refurbishment after all this time.