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Transpennine Electrification : Manchester/Leeds


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I agree Manchester to Leeds doesn't make any sense without going on to York, and ideally Hull and Middlesbrough too. I think the plan is to avoid electrifying to Scarborough by taking that out of Transpennine and extending the Blackpool-York there instead.

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I am waiting for the usually very good Alan Whitehouse on Look North tonight for more information. I hope that is will not just be Leeds Manchester but will go through to York as well.

 

That's implied but ...

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I agree Manchester to Leeds doesn't make any sense without going on to York, and ideally Hull and Middlesbrough too. I think the plan is to avoid electrifying to Scarborough by taking that out of Transpennine and extending the Blackpool-York there instead.

But once Blackpool to Preston is wired it will mean the only bit of the route unwired will be York to Scarborough. Maybe Scarborough will lose out on direct Transpennine services.

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Last week the West Yorkshire Metro people were talking about preparing the new Bradford Low Moor station for electrification, wonder what they know as perhaps there is also a plan to do Huddersfield to Bradford to Leeds as well, or better to Manchester via Rochdale.

 

Having both routes electric does give diversionary options that will be lost if just one route is given wires and the major services go over to electric.

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I went to the West Yorkshire, METRO event at Low Moor, in connection with building a new rail station there.

The staff running the display, told me the Leeds - Manchester, Calder Valley line, is supposed to be electrified, once the route via Dewsbury has been electrified - and that is supposedly starting in 2014, so the Calder Valley is still some way off. Interesting times !!

 

Edit - sorry Woodenhead, we both seem to have posted these around the same time.

Edited by plarailfan
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IIRC the current plan is for ex-Thameslink 319's to run Blackpool-Manchester, maybe this will change the cascade plans? And where will the 185's end up?

 

Waiting for the TV report.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

That thought had crossed my mind too. I think there may be rather more 319s becoming free than are needed for the schemes previously announced (Great Western and Lancashire Triangle) but probably not enough for Transpennine especially if they do the Hull and Middlesbrough branches too. Also I doubt a 319 would be politically acceptable for the Transpennine network, no matter how thoroughly refurbished. So I think we're probably looking at new build - end door stock like the 444 would be nice but more likely to be one-third/two-thirds with a higher-spec interior like the 185s.

 

Shouldn't be any problem finding a home for the 185s given the general scarcity of diesels. Nottingham to Cardiff and the Chiltern line spring to mind as places where they could do with something a bit more powerful than a 170 and the extra weight doesn't matter too much. You could probably push them out to 110mph like London Midland plan to do with the 350s.

 

Even if Alan Whitehouse has the knowledge, I doubt he'll get enough time to say anything like this on the TV. Probably need to wait for a more reasoned analysis in one of the trade mags.

Edited by Edwin_m
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You could probably push them out to 110mph like London Midland plan to do with the 350s.

 

Don't think they've done the 110mph tests yet. I believe they're scheduled for an all line possession between Preston and Lancaster/Carnforth in the near future.

 

Cheers,

Mick

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IIRC the current plan is for ex-Thameslink 319's to run Blackpool-Manchester, maybe this will change the cascade plans? And where will the 185's end up?

 

With Thameslink 2000's new stock having been put back another couple of years 319s won't be released early enough for the 2013 phase 1 of the NW electrification.

 

There's a bit in the current Modern Railways about the new franchisee for Anglia suddenly deciding they can do without 9x class 317s in the run up to the olympic rush! The implication is that they would be about the right fleet size to cover the Northern Rail requirement for the electrification already on the go.

 

TPX is already supposed to be getting new EMUs for the same scheme (Manchester-Glasgow trains) so I don't see it likely that they will get cascaded ones, but it does open the possibility of future cascades going to Northern.

 

I do wonder whether the increased need for EMUs on TPX is a good excuse for getting Bombardier a decent contract instead of it just being a simple extra few cars hung on LM's Desiro order.

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We once had a superb trans-pennine electrified railway, complete with new tunnel.

 

Don't trust 'owt the politicians tell you. I will beleive it when I'm riding on it.

 

Brit15

 

That is far as we want to go down any political discussion thanks.

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With Thameslink 2000's new stock having been put back another couple of years 319s won't be released early enough for the 2013 phase 1 of the NW electrification.

...

TPX is already supposed to be getting new EMUs for the same scheme (Manchester-Glasgow trains) so I don't see it likely that they will get cascaded ones, but it does open the possibility of future cascades going to Northern.

 

I do wonder whether the increased need for EMUs on TPX is a good excuse for getting Bombardier a decent contract instead of it just being a simple extra few cars hung on LM's Desiro order.

 

I think Manchester-Scotland is the only route going electric in the first phase, as this only electrifies from Manchester to Parkside and you'd have to link to Edge Hill before you can convert anything else. To convert these in 2013 I doubt there is any time to do anything other than either pull the collective finger out and order the 350s ASAP (110mph too?) or use the ex-Anglia 317s. Using 350s now doesn't rule out a different supplier for the main electric fleet - the Manchester-Scotland units could join their cousins on London Midland, or Manchester-Scotland could end up in a separate franchise from the rest of Transpennine.

 

However I think the Thameslink delays also threaten to leave no 319s available for when Manchester-Blackpool, Manchester-Liverpool and Liverpool-Wigan are supposed to go electric too. Not to mention Great Western, which will probably take priority if it comes to the crunch. That lot definitely needs more than a handful of 317s, though if still available by then the 317s could cover during a 319 refurbishment programme or act as a figleaf to avoid the collective embarassment of having a newly electrified railway with no trains to run on it.

 

Not forgetting of course that Transpennine electrification will also create a need for electric locals on routes such as Manchester-Huddersfield, Huddersfield-Leeds, Leeds-York and Leeds-Hull if that is included. I'd expect these to be 319s or 317s or maybe even 315s displaced by Crossrail (though Cardiff may have their eyes on the 315s).

Edited by Edwin_m
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Not forgetting of course that Transpennine electrification will also create a need for electric locals on routes such as Manchester-Huddersfield, Huddersfield-Leeds, Leeds-York and Leeds-Hull if that is included. I'd expect these to be 319s or 317s or maybe even 315s displaced by Crossrail (though Cardiff may have their eyes on the 315s).

 

Another forum quotes the possibility of LM replacing their 323's, thus making those available. That would make some sense, centralising the 323 fleet on Manchester.

 

Cheers,

Mick

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I hope people will forgive / correct* me, but IIRC didn't Metro push for electrification to Skipton, along with the purchase of the 321/9s for Doncaster-Leeds locals, and the 333s for the Skipton line?

 

I can't see the 323s moving up to Manchester, what would Centro / London Midland get to replace them?

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The suggestion is LM are angling for new 'Desiro City's'

 

There is some logic if either the Manchester or Birmingham 323 fleets need expanding you do that by buying new trains for one and concentrating all the 323s on the other...

 

Rolling stock provision didn't stay boring for very long. ;)

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Not forgetting of course that Transpennine electrification will also create a need for electric locals on routes such as Manchester-Huddersfield, Huddersfield-Leeds, Leeds-York and Leeds-Hull if that is included. I'd expect these to be 319s or 317s or maybe even 315s displaced by Crossrail (though Cardiff may have their eyes on the 315s).

 

Thameslink ought to also free up some 317s, 321s and 365s from the current ECML fleet, and some 377s (although I would bet on them ending up back at Southern eventually) as well as lots (86 sets?) of 319s from the current Thameslink fleet - and Crossrail should also free up the Heathrow Connect 360s, which are an odd 5-car size so i'm not sure would otherwise be easily absorbed into another fleet...

 

Lots of units up for grabs. :)

 

Yeah I could see the 315s fitting in well in the valleys, simple, cheap to run, not fast, but 8 axles powered for dealing with the hills...

Edited by Glorious NSE
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Given the furore over the last major rolling stock order going to Siemens, I can't see it being poltically acceptable that more Desiros or versions of them would be ordered for Transpennine. But then again, the ineptitude of our politicians , whatever party, never fails to astound

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