Transpennine Upgrade : Manchester/Leeds

[corneliuslundie]

I have a feeling that Geneva also has static changeover on some platforms. Certainly, French and Swiss trains seem to use different platforms normally, but I don't know if trains often cross over from one part to the other.

Jonathan

[peanuts]

On 23/05/2022 at 22:23, TheSignalEngineer said:

As far as I remember there was no switching of the OLE at Piccadilly. The DC was cut back to the bays at Oxford Road and the AM4 units initially worked Crewe to Oxford Road as 25KV then later through to Altrincham when that section was converted. 

From my time on the platform at picc platfors 1-4 were DC only and were known as the east side all the rest were ac and known as west side with trains pretty much kept to thier own sides .platforms 4 & 5 was accesible from both sides for diesel hauled trains to allow some flexibilty .platform five had a ground frame operated crossover to allow trains to run round iirc only trains booked to do this were the class 37 hauled services to Cardiff via Shrewsbury and the early hours postal to Sheffield 

[The Stationmaster]

On 24/05/2022 at 22:30, corneliuslundie said:

I have a feeling that Geneva also has static changeover on some platforms. Certainly, French and Swiss trains seem to use different platforms normally, but I don't know if trains often cross over from one part to the other.

Jonathan

There was one platform at Geneva back in the 1990s which was definitely electrified at SNCF voltage (and might perhaps have been commutable i.e. able to be changed over from one voltage/system to the other).

[kevpeo]

Watched on the Swiss/Italian border many years ago before these fancy bi-modes appeared, they simply dropped the pans on approach and braked to a stop in the platforms. A shunter then took the 'dead' loco off and took it back to its own voltage!

 

[Mike Storey]

16 minutes ago, kevpeo said:

Watched on the Swiss/Italian border many years ago before these fancy bi-modes appeared, they simply dropped the pans on approach and braked to a stop in the platforms. A shunter then took the 'dead' loco off and took it back to its own voltage!

 

 

Was that at Chiasso?

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Mike Storey

[jamie92208]

There was much discussion of this subject a year or so ago either on thus thread or another about electrification at the Mayfield parcels station.

 

Geneva certainly still has a single platform at 25Kv for the suburban units. I rode them ladt night. Chiasso has much inter runni g but I din't look at the arrangements.   TGV's to Badke, Genva and other stations innSwitzerland have tri voltage capability.  The 4700 series were in use at Basle and Geneva yesterday.  I'm not sure how they got there but several SNCF 25kc Ac/1500 dc units were stabled amongst SBB stock east of the station at Geneva.  There is also a new class of Swiss EMU, the class 522/2's that work in Switzerland and France under the brand name of Leaman Express. I saw these at Annemasse, and Bellegarde in France and Geneva.  However I have no details of what voltages they run on.

 

Jamie

[eastwestdivide]

A long way from the Pennines, but there’s a lot of info on border crossings at Paul Steane’s “Enthusiast's Guide to Travelling the Railways of Europe” 

https://egtre.info/wiki/Border_Crossings_-_General_Information

 

[kevpeo]

15 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Was that at Chiasso?

 

I believe so, yes.

[woodenhead]

Busy Jubilee weekend in Manchester - removal of a signal box and 2.5 miles of new track and the strings are going up..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-61664371

 

[4630]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Busy Jubilee weekend in Manchester - removal of a signal box and 2.5 miles of new track and the strings are going up..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-61664371

 

 

Good to see some more progress with the wires going up.

 

Although it's not mentioned in that BBC piece - and I wouldn't expect that level of detail really - I imagine it'll be the 'box at Baguley Fold Junction that'll be going as it's the only one left along that stretch of line.

[woodenhead]

I was surprised there are still boxes in use around central manchester, certainly on mainlines, but then I think about Stockport and Heaton Norris.  It's odd because of the signalling centre you think it's controlling everything, but it isn't, I wonder when they will finally resolve the signalling through Stockport, they gave up once, it cannot last forever like that.

[4630]

There's nothing listed for Control Period 6 (April 2019-2024) for Stockport, so it looks like it will be a few more years yet.

 

The next ones that's are related to the Trans-Pennine route via Huddersfield are Batley signal box (downgraded to gate 'box with signalling controlled from York ROC) in June 2023 and Diggle Junction in Spring 2024.

[SHMD]

According to my copy of the "Signalling Atlas and Signal Box Directory" second edition, Baguley Fold Junction was built by the L&Y Rly in 1890.

The BBC Article states the the box going is 132 years old and this is the last box between Stalybridge and Manchester, so it all fits.

 

I will be sad to see this box go as I've seen many already removed before it.

It least the knitting is still proceeding!

 

 

Kev.

[peanuts]

19 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I was surprised there are still boxes in use around central manchester, certainly on mainlines, but then I think about Stockport and Heaton Norris.  It's odd because of the signalling centre you think it's controlling everything, but it isn't, I wonder when they will finally resolve the signalling through Stockport, they gave up once, it cannot last forever like that.

The boxes at stockport all got a major refit and renewal in the early 2000s when the whole area was shut down for the installation of man southscc. frames heavily renewed and refurbed new relay rooms complete rewires  there is a lot of life left in them yet 

[woodenhead]

4 hours ago, peanuts said:

The boxes at stockport all got a major refit and renewal in the early 2000s when the whole area was shut down for the installation of man southscc. frames heavily renewed and refurbed new relay rooms complete rewires  there is a lot of life left in them yet 

Ahh but, it's the old technology refreshed, they abandoned the actual planned scheme in 2004, removed the new switches and went back to what they had.

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rail-signals-derailed-1159137

Edited June 3, 2022 by woodenhead

[peanuts]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Ahh but, it's the old technology refreshed, they abandoned the actual planned scheme in 2004, removed the new switches and went back to what they had.

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rail-signals-derailed-1159137

I know I had the misfortune to reopen Heaton Norris for the first shift back some leavers were still a bit tight and the first train onto the Denton branch caused chaos multiple tc failures but wasnt so bad once it all settled down and as for being "old tech" it's worked pretty well for the last 100 years+ and the refresh will have given it a good few years more 

[GordonC]

I had no idea Stockport box was still open and in use. What made it so difficult to replace during the West Coast Route Modernisation?

 

[4630]

2 hours ago, GordonC said:

I had no idea Stockport box was still open and in use. What made it so difficult to replace during the West Coast Route Modernisation?

 

 

IIRC, the project to replace the signalling and associated boxes around Stockport was abandoned after the 'new' signalling developed by Ansaldo couldn't be made to work as required within the specification for the contract that was originally let.  A significant amount of project time and money was wasted at the time.

 

Just to add a bit of flavour to the kind of issues that the 'Manchester South' resignalling project was going through at the time, this link to a report in The Guardian from 2001 (yes, I know it's The Guardian, but read the piece with an open mind) gives some insight.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/23/transport.world

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by 4630
To add link to piece in The Guardian from 2001

[peanuts]

best way i heard it explained was they went to Rome to see the Ansaldo system in operation where they were shown the version in use there which was the eqivelent of windows xp at the time .the version they bought for stockport was at best windows 3.1 . 

[jamie92208]

There was a report that I read that when they abandoned the Ansaldo scheme they had to bring in engineers from India to refurbish the interlocking at Stocport and I think bring some previously removed routes back into action.

 

Jamie

[peanuts]

12 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

There was a report that I read that when they abandoned the Ansaldo scheme they had to bring in engineers from India to refurbish the interlocking at Stocport and I think bring some previously removed routes back into action.

 

Jamie

Correct they were used to boost the numbers on s&t teams 

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, 4630 said:

 

IIRC, the project to replace the signalling and associated boxes around Stockport was abandoned after the 'new' signalling developed by Ansaldo couldn't be made to work as required within the specification for the contract that was originally let.  A significant amount of project time and money was wasted at the time.

 

Just to add a bit of flavour to the kind of issues that the 'Manchester South' resignalling project was going through at the time, this link to a report in The Guardian from 2001 (yes, I know it's The Guardian, but read the piece with an open mind) gives some insight.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/23/transport.world

 

 

Ansaldo was a shambles - they couldn't even get the colour of the signal aspects right.  I attended the second trial of aspect colours as an independent safety reviewer and it was still a display of mismatches and aspect colours that changed depending on hiw yoy viewed them.  they had been given the BR spec for the colours and colour temperatures and simply couldn't match it.  From what I heard at the time (I was working for a signal engineering company then) the signals were but a minor part of the overall problems.

[4630]

33 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ansaldo was a shambles ....

 

From what I heard at the time (I was working for a signal engineering company then) the signals were but a minor part of the overall problems.

 

I recall the unfolding saga being covered comprehensively in Modern Railways at the time.

 

But, as I'm sure you know, it was only one aspect* of the West Coast Route Modernisation Project that was mired in Department for Transport/Strategic Rail Authority/Railtrack/Network Rail/Virgin Trains involvement.

 

 

* not signal aspect in this particular context!

Edited June 7, 2022 by 4630

[Mike Storey]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ansaldo was a shambles - they couldn't even get the colour of the signal aspects right.  I attended the second trial of aspect colours as an independent safety reviewer and it was still a display of mismatches and aspect colours that changed depending on hiw yoy viewed them.  they had been given the BR spec for the colours and colour temperatures and simply couldn't match it.  From what I heard at the time (I was working for a signal engineering company then) the signals were but a minor part of the overall problems.

 

Absolutely. But that was c.20 years ago. Eventually, Ansaldo sorted out their problems and are now the dominant supplier, I believe. The primary issue concerned RT's, then NR's, quest to find competition for Alstom/Westinghouse.

 

I don't think that will be a problem for Trans-Pennine. In fact, things seem to be progressing, almost stealth-like. What I believe we don't yet know, is what the final (or interim) solution yet looks like? 

 

 

[Northmoor]

Oh for a rolling electrification programme in the UK; Trans-Pennine Electrification (Colton Junction - Leeds - Manchester Picc - Allerton) could have immediately followed completion of the ECML, with extensions to Bolton, Wigan, Blackpool, Bradford etc. following over the next 5-10 years.  A good chunk of the 2nd generation DMU fleet need never have been built, the semi-fasts would have required something like the 365s with a high-density AC version of the 465 for suburban workings.

Or what if it had immediately followed the WCML electrification?  Instead of Peaks on the Liverpool - Newcastle semi-fasts, it might have been 81s and 85s, with an extended build of 314/315s for suburban services.