Cambrian and GWR 0 Gauge layout -Revised Plans

[Donw]

While the builders continue to turn this

into a proper railway room time has come to think about the plan. The space available is 23ft6in (approx 7m) by 8ft10in(approx 2.7m) with a bit more length if I take the line round the back of a chimney. The stairs also come round the chimney so I will need a lifting section at that end.

First thought is 8ft 10in is rather tight for a curve but I really do want to have a continous run so I will have to adapt or build stock to cope with such a tight curve.

The other thing is the sloping roof will affect the layout height and the scenery. The slope will start at about 57in (I will know exactly when the plasterboard has been skimmed). So The layout will probably be about 40in off the floor.

 

Although I grew up near the GWR main line, I used to spend weekends exploring the Welsh coast and the area from Aberdovey to Portmaddog was favourite. Reading more about the railways I became interested in the old Cambrian as well as the GWR. I was looking for somewhere to have the both which would also provide some operating interest. Pre-grouping Dolgelley (original spelling) was an interesting place in those days nothing ran straight through. A lot of trains ran through but the engine would be changed. Two problems firstly the size of Dolgelly, it would be rather large for my loft. Secondly the Cambrian tended to use the Naysmith tanks to take the trains on to Barmouth.

So the layout will be a rather truncated version of Dogelly particularly a shortened goods yard. I will also invoke Modellers licence and run the Cambrian locos I would like from the coast line.

 

Obviously the main staion could be fed from two fiddle yards one GWR one Cambrian but that would be a lot of Fiddle yard and just one station so I might make the Cambrian one a small terminus which will represent the rest of the Cambrian but be a bit more interesting to work. I might possibly make that station portable so I could take it to an exhibition.

 

One other thing I think I will upgrade the GWR line rather early so I can use Blue engines like the Bulldog.

 

Stock Built or Aquired so far some may not be in correct livery at the moment

 

GWR   Bulldog, Dean Goods, 45xx, Steam Railmotor, 1365 ( rather out of area but a favourite) about 10 coaches

 

Cambrian   Beaconsfield, MW 0-4-0

 

Kits / Parts for later  Barnum, 2x Dukes, Early Dean Goods, 517, 2x Sharpie 0-6-0s, 73 0-6-0, some GWR and Cambrian coaches

I am also hoping that Chris at Dragon Models will do an Albion 2-4-0

 

Well there is an introducction do not expect rapid progress but I will draw up some ideas for the planned layout for everyone to criticise and see if Stationmaster can suggest what the signalling might have been in Edwardian days.

 

Thank you for your interest.

Don

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Donw

[chaz]

Don,

 

An interesting project. It's very early days but there are a few decisions which will affect the success of your layout which are best made early.

 

You could avoid your "lot of fiddle yard" by using cassettes. These could be kept out of the way, on shelves under the layout, and only put into line to receive or dispatch trains.

 

You might also reflect on how much you could gain if you sacrifice the continuous run....I would also suggest you ask some of the 7mm GWR boys how easy it's going to be to get a Duke or Bulldog round a 4' radius curve - sounds very tight to me!

 

IMHO 40" will be OK for your track height if you are going to operate sitting down - if like me you tend to stand when "playing" I would suggest a minimum of 48" otherwise your view is always going to be from a helicopter. Dock Green's track is 48" above floor. This is itself a compromise, I would have preferred a higher setting but that would not be desirable at an exhibition.

 

Hope that's some help.

 

Chaz

[georgeT]

Morning Don,  Thing's are looking good, l too would go for the cassette system, as with fiddle yard's l find thing's can stay in there for ages collecting dust etc etc, with cassettes you can store them loaded under the layout, that's what l have with 'Grundy Street' all the stock hidden under the layout, just a thought ?

 

George..

[chaz]

Morning Don,  Thing's are looking good, l too would go for the cassette system, as with fiddle yard's l find thing's can stay in there for ages collecting dust etc etc, with cassettes you can store them loaded under the layout, that's what l have with 'Grundy Street' all the stock hidden under the layout, just a thought ?

 

George..

 

Yes indeed. And if you design them right you can use them as stock boxes so that if (when?) you take the layout to a show it's easy to take the stock.

[Donw]

Thank you Chaz and George for your thoughts,

 

Regarding the cassettes; i was hoping to be able to run 4 coach trains which would mean cassettes 2m long if you include the loco or 1.6m long without. Rather unwieldy for solo use. I found with metre long cassettes that you had to be careful about stock rolling off. My small dock tank with an ABC gearbox would roll off on its own on even a slight slope. However I will give it more thought.

 

Regarding layout height It is the sloping ceilings which restrict the height.

 

I could go for a  30ft end to end but I wouldn't be able to sit with a cuppa and watch a train run round and round. Not proper operating but very pleasant with a sound chip to give the atmosphere. So I do fancy a continous run. I will have to make a test curve and try it out. I do know from my time as an editor that many coped with tight curves. Frank Roomes was one such.

 

Don

[81A Oldoak]

I shall follow progress with interest. The Cambrian in BR days has been the heart of my 4mm scale interest for 25 years. In 7mm scale, I have moved to South Wales, but I believe the Cambrian 15s and 844s got as far as Newport via the Brecon and Merthyr. The hunt is on for a photograph.

 

I am working on a Gladiator kit of the Cambrian Goods in early BR days and it is almost ready for priming. Photos here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77034-cambrian-railways-15-class-gladiator-kit/  I also have one of Chris Basten's (Dragon Models) small Cambrian Sharp Stewart 4-4-0s on the shelf to be built one day. I think Chris was intending to convert one of the Ixion Manning Wardle 0-4-0 saddle tank locos to the Cambrian variant.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[chaz]

Thank you Chaz and George for your thoughts,

 

Regarding the cassettes; i was hoping to be able to run 4 coach trains which would mean cassettes 2m long if you include the loco or 1.6m long without. Rather unwieldy for solo use......

Don

 

Not necessarily. On Dock Green the longest cassettes are 26 inches long and carry four 4 wheel wagons, each loco having its own cassette. This means I can alter the consist of a train without having to move any stock apart from the brake vans. Each goods train uses 2 wagon cassettes (so seven wagons and a brake) and a loco cassette. For some pictures of my cassettes have a look at posting #21 on page one of....

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58132-dock-green/

 

...not the only way to do it but it works well.

 

If I were in your position I would make cassettes long enough for two coaches (3ft?) and others for locos. This should be manageable. if you want four coaches in a train you choose two coach cassettes and a loco one. I definitely would not have any cassettes as long a 2m or even 1.6m.   Rather unwieldy would be an understatement.

[Donw]

Chris

my Cambrian MW 0-4-0t is indeed and Ixion one. I believe the one inherited from the Van railway was of that type. The ones that came from Savin were of an earlier type. So a little bit of a Stretch to run it up the Coast lines but what the hell a RTR  model of that quality of something that ran on the Cambrian is not to be missed. I think it will look rather nice in black with the feathers on the sides.

Don

[Andrew P]

Hi Don, its good to see you've made a start and its going to be terrific, I am looking forward to seeing the track go down and the greenery go up.

 

Just a though, how about adding 7MM or O Gauge in the title or some people who don't know you may wonder just why your struggling to fit a Station into that length.

 

All the nest and I am looking forward to the frames going in AND THE PICS.

 

Bodgit

[Simond]

Don

 

Looks like another Gwynedd project...

 

Picking up on Chaz' comment about layout height - it is surely the case that a "home" layout can be lower than would be suitable for something that will go on tour - but nothing says that if you do take your layout out to exhibitions, it has to remain at the same height as at home! Indeed, it might even be better to use cupboard carcasses at home, and something much more portable, and higher, when out & about.

 

I looked at my loft with a jaundiced eye a few years back. The problem is the backscene, which, presuming it will be more than a wagon high, starts consuming your layout area at an alarming rate. This led me to conclude that the loft conversion money would be better spent on a large shed. This, of course means that I have a very small layout and a lot of rolling stock, until the shed can become more than a plan...

 

Sitting down seems like a good idea, but you still don't want the layout at knee height!

 

To be fair, I've never used cassettes, but I'm not keen. This is personal preference and a million miles from rational advice! A fiddle yard and a continuous run seem to be the stuff of dreams, even if the dust is an enemy - a Perspex lid sorts that one out!

 

Good luck with the project!

SD

[Andrew P]

Hi Don, I had a loft layout years ago, well it wasn't so much a layout as a running area in the eves after a Loft Conversion, IT WAS AWFUL, it was 18 inches from the floor, after 10 min's my knees and hips were killing me, in the end I gave up.

My exhibition layouts are 40 inches high and I find that just perfect for sitting on a high stool and viewing. But when I am building my Layouts they are on Kitchen units and that's nice, I can also view them from a normal chair / stool

 

Good Luck.

 

Bodgit

[Donw]

The height/area thing in a loft is always a compromise but usually the position of the Purlins  determines where the sensible position to place the walls are. If you want to move the purlins dig deeper into your pocket and at the end find yourself on your knees. Working with the builders we agreed to leave the purlins but the binder across the ceiling joist which had to be moved to fit the deeper floor joists has been moved out a few inches to under the purlins.  Two Velux have been placed higher to maximise wall height but the other looking out to sea is a bit lower I may put a workbench under the layout there.

Regarding layout height Ken Payne built his fairly low, he operates sitting at a control desk. Guest can lounge in armchairs. I have have spent many an afternoon there. It is very pleasant sat in an armchair watching trains run and having a natter. However I also like to do a bit more operating and enjoy trying to run a schedule which is much better stood up. I like walkabout controls which helps a lot with three link couplings so the height is a matter of finding the best compromise.

Don

[richbrummitt]

How much height do you have in your loft? There is not a chance that I could stand up in the loft of our current house (or anything built post 1960ish that I've seen) and that is before considering the need for insulation to Part L. 

 

Either it is taller than it looks or you are doing something to avoid it being a proper signed off to building regulations conversion - in the latter case I would be interested to know more please.

[Donw]

I cannot remember the height off hand a bit over 8ft I think but the 100mm ceiling joists have been interspersed with 200mm new joists to support the floor. there will also be a small ceiling to allow 50mm under the ridge plus 70mm Celotx Insulation then Multifoil 25mm battens and 15mm Plasterboard so the roof space over the insulation can ventilate to roof vents.

 

If an attic is converted for storage space I don't think you have to tell Building Control although questions may be asked when you sell. Generally if you make changes and don't tell them after 4 years they cannot take much action. However the space will never be classed as a habitable room. Personally I think if you have a house the extra hassle of the latest fire regs etc.makes using the garage or a shed a more amenable option. Even on this bungalow where I will use the end window to escape onto a flat roof in the event of a fire. The flat roof is on a kitchen extension and the BCO is insisting the ceiling under the flat roof must have 1 hour fire resistance. Fortunately there is a paint which can do that.

Don

[33212]

Hello

 

I am a loft dweller, my boards are 15 inches off the floor, this gives me the benefit of a massive layout space. I operate sitting down on a low stool, its a little helicopter like but i prefer this to having a smaller space.

 

Do whatever is best for you, i am 40 and mobile so leaping about is not an issue, if your older, or intend to keep this layout until your time is up, make it future proof...

 

Matt

[Stubby47]

One option might be to have two termius stations, one one each side of the loft, but where the track falls as it leaves each station throat to a lower, wider continuous circuit. This would ease the bends, allow some possible space for hidden siddings and give you space for two styles of station architecture.

 

[Stubby47]

Actually, that's a rubbish idea.

 

The curves out of the station would still need to be tight, plus possibly on an incline as well, so would restrict stock in both close coupling and train length.

Unless you could have a station with a full straight incline along each side, so the track could then use a wider curve.

[Donw]

I re-checked the height of the walls yesterday it will be about 51in. To go under the purlin with enough room to get your hand above the trains (in case of derailment) would be rather low for me. That could be an interesting plan Stu. Regarding the station architecture Dolgelley has two styles a GWR building on the up platform and a Cambrian one on the down.

Don

[richbrummitt]

Thank you Don for entertaining the brief thread hijack - it seems you have much more height than I thought. It isn't habitable space until you put in a permanent ladder but then if you do...   ...but would you really want to be using a 'room' regularly without having good access. As you identify escape in the event of a fire is one such reason that has an importance beyond simple conveniences. Fortunately the property we are (hopefully) moving to has an attached garage.

 

Back to trains.

[The Stationmaster]

I cannot remember the height off hand a bit over 8ft I think but the 100mm ceiling joists have been interspersed with 200mm new joists to support the floor. there will also be a small ceiling to allow 50mm under the ridge plus 70mm Celotx Insulation then Multifoil 25mm battens and 15mm Plasterboard so the roof space over the insulation can ventilate to roof vents.

 

If an attic is converted for storage space I don't think you have to tell Building Control although questions may be asked when you sell. Generally if you make changes and don't tell them after 4 years they cannot take much action. However the space will never be classed as a habitable room. Personally I think if you have a house the extra hassle of the latest fire regs etc.makes using the garage or a shed a more amenable option. Even on this bungalow where I will use the end window to escape onto a flat roof in the event of a fire. The flat roof is on a kitchen extension and the BCO is insisting the ceiling under the flat roof must have 1 hour fire resistance. Fortunately there is a paint which can do that.

Don

 

 

Thank you Don for entertaining the brief thread hijack - it seems you have much more height than I thought. It isn't habitable space until you put in a permanent ladder but then if you do...   ...but would you really want to be using a 'room' regularly without having good access. As you identify escape in the event of a fire is one such reason that has an importance beyond simple conveniences. Fortunately the property we are (hopefully) moving to has an attached garage.

 

Back to trains.

 

Storage space isn't habitable space end of story.  However according to my understanding from both Building Control and the Rating Officer when we built our house the situation is that if you use it as a room in which someone will spend some time (duration not quantified) then it counts as habitable space.  In my case I went in the opposite direction having originally intended the attic to be a layout room but realising the impracticality of that after we had to lower the roof ridge in order to get an acceptable 'street scene' view for the planners - so I duly took out of the build the fixed staircase with fire doors top & bottom and substituted a loft ladder and trapdoor arrangement although I kept the original design floor loadings - duly advising the Planning Dept of the change.

 

When the Building Inspector arrive for the final inspection he duly checked the attic area to make sure that it was not part of the habitable accommodation and was quite happy even tho' it is fully plastered (I was too late with the builder to alter that) and it is only used for storage.  Similarly the Rating Officer carried out a quick inspection of it when she came along in order to satisfy herself that it was not being used as a habitable room.

 

The situation is fairly simple - boarded floor, or even plastered ceilings & walls, are irrelevant as long as it is not habitable space; loft ladder instead of staircase means it can't be used as habitable space as does lack of fire doors.  If it is habitable space it goes on the house's total and counts for rating purpose - if it isn't then it doesn't.  Any impact on rateable value is only applied on change of ownership

[Donw]

A pretty comprehensive answer Mike. Of the last three places we have lived in two had old non approved loft conversions. Both had been used as habitable rooms but because there was no certificate from Building control,  Solicitors insisted on having an Indemnity policy (about £500) to cover the situation if the council caused problems. Both were sold without much difficulty. However the other one we did the conversion ourselves with Building regulations approval. Doing the work ourselves we more than recovered the costs when selling. The regulations have got much together in the 7 years since I did the one before. I am not sure if we would cover the costs for the builders on this one but if I do all the work on this I will never get the layout built.

 

So if you have an old loft conversion with or without a loft ladder carryon using it. However if doing it now think about the choice proper room or storage space. True no one will know if you are running trains up there. For me Marion insisted it was a proper room with a staircase worrying that as an OF I might fall either through the trapdoor (a common enough occurence) or off the ladder. Besides I have no worries about the weight on the floor such as a visit from other modellers. It will be all nicely insulated including the loft voids so rather like putting a warm hat onto the bungalow (the insulation is probably equal to about 18ins of fibreglass).

Don

[Donw]

A couple of pictures firstly since there has been some interest in the loft conversion here is a shot showing progress. The insulation between the rafters is complete. The lower half has had the multi foil added before the studs for the walls were added. Now the foil has to be added above the walls before battens and then plasterboard. This view is looking towards the stairs.

 

The second picture shows the first semi-rough sketch of a possible plan. I will not comment on it yet. I would like to see what others think and the possible ommissions and where a fy could be fitted.

 

Don

[Stubby47]

You might be tight for access between the baseboard and the chimney. Will the track crossing the room be fixed or removeable ?

[Donw]

You might be tight for access between the baseboard and the chimney. Will the track crossing the room be fixed or removeable ?

I think a removeable or lifting section will be needed.

Don

[Stubby47]

How about this ? Blue is low-level FY.