Andy Y Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 20% is about the same as Hornby,s increase. Note that we can expect a 20% increase each year for 5 years. So if it was £100, then £120, then £144, then £174, £209 and finally £250! On that basis think of the Blue Pullman Price increase over the next few years. RRP on the last run was £349 Year 1+ 20% = £418 Year 2 + a further 20% = £501 Year 3 + a further 20% = £601 Year 4 + a further 20% = £722 Year 5 + a further 20% = £866 All approx if my maths is correct. Glad I have already brought one The information was that wages would increase by 100% over the 5 years so it's a simplification to say it's a 20% p.a. increase (as I did) rather than it being applied on a compound basis. However the subject of a further Blue Pullman project was touched upon and with the level of detail and necessary processes linked to rising costs it could have had an RRP of £600 in a year or two so that's unlikely to happen in the near future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 We obviously wasted our time going into a detailed explanation today. Hopefully most people will have found it useful and informative. I am always amazed they can find people to assemble all these microscopic details and they have to assemble several hundred without excess glue marks and in rapid order too. It takes me the best part of an evening to fit buffer beam detail, doubtless they do it in minutes and perfectly too. Having taken some models apart, reassembly can be far from straight forwards, so how they were made in the first place is amazing. Thanks for the explanation. I agree there are no easy decisions. I think the only area for growth is cheap sound. Going back on detail to Merchant Navy standards would be acceptable for most too I feel. While established modellers may accept a £300 loco, such prices could kill the hobby off as too expensive. Newcomers need to believe that it is within their reach. Model shops getting support is great too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Today's information was treated in the same way (there was information and comment today which we were asked not to publish). CHRIS LEIGH If there weren't any product announcements why were you asked to not to publish certain information and comments? Presumably this wasn't an analysts day so no commercial or detailed financial data was presented to the model railway press? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 If there weren't any product announcements why were you asked to not to publish certain information and comments? Sometimes when discussing a concept a figure may be mentioned which may be subject to verification or commercial confidence accompanied with a "don't quote me" codacil, but I can assure you the OP is a full and honest record of the content and that there's nothing sinister in that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Sometimes when discussing a concept a figure may be mentioned which may be subject to verification or commercial confidence accompanied with a "don't quote me" codacil, but I can assure you the OP is a full and honest record of the content and that there's nothing sinister in that. Thank you. I wasn't suggesting anything sinister just interested to know the reasoning behind that particular comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Sometimes when discussing a concept a figure may be mentioned which may be subject to verification or commercial confidence accompanied with a "don't quote me" codacil, but I can assure you the OP is a full and honest record of the content and that there's nothing sinister in that. Why don't people trust the messenger any more? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 "Well done Bachmann"...are you serious? Do you send letters of congratulation to the big 6 energy firms every time they hike up the Gas & electric bills? 20% increase. What's inflation running at? What's the average payrise figure? Im going to leave this thread as I'm not sure which makes me more disconsolate....the thread headline or the responses! Dave You do have more of a choice between buying or not buying a model off Bachmann ......... with the Power Bandits most of us are stuck with suppliers who are all much the same, and it's tough trying to run a Family home without using some "lecky" for most things. So in truth I suppose we can say well done to Bachmann, they have been open and what I see honest in their information to us, yes there products are going to rise, and they have told us.....so you can avoid the cost...it's your choice not to buy them ? But at least when you put the model on the track and run it, it will bring a smile to your face ........ unlike seeing the tumble drier going round and round on top heat full of wet clothing on a wet rainy day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 We obviously wasted our time going into a detailed explanation today. Hopefully most people will have found it useful and informative. A bit harsh Andy you were not wasting your time; I agree this topic useful informative, however for someone who may have limited funds and now sees that a 20% increase in the price of a model they were planning on buying will be somewhat disappointed and will therefore, potentially have a different opinion. Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Why don't people trust the messenger any more? Because they don't like the message? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Why don't people trust the messenger any more? It's not a matter of not trusting the messenger any more. I wasn't at the meeting so I asked the question of someone who was fortunate to be there in person in order that I could understand the reasoning behind the statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 But at least when you put the model on the track and run it, it will bring a smile to your face ........ unlike seeing the tumble drier going round and round on top heat full of wet clothing on a wet rainy day. I bet there's someone out there... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 What is 20% ?, it is an increase of a 5th of the price, so the RRP of the Lightweight DMU goes from £114.00 'ish to £144.00 'ish, so in real price terms the unit will rise by about £20 - £25, what does that equate to ? 4 or 5 standard meals at Mcdonalds Average price of 1 adult ticket to most football games in Britain 1/2 the price of a decent slap up meal 1/2 the price of a new Video game for your Sonytendo Toshbox !!! Let's put things into prospective, it is not really that dear is it ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryMeerkat Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 You do have more of a choice between buying or not buying a model off Bachmann ......... with the Power Bandits most of us are stuck with suppliers who are all much the same, and it's tough trying to run a Family home without using some "lecky" for most things. So in truth I suppose we can say well done to Bachmann, they have been open and what I see honest in their information to us, yes there products are going to rise, and they have told us.....so you can avoid the cost...it's your choice not to buy them ? But at least when you put the model on the track and run it, it will bring a smile to your face ........ unlike seeing the tumble drier going round and round on top heat full of wet clothing on a wet rainy day. I've just checked Google, and unlike fuel/energy suppliers Bachmann haven't just posted annual profits of $31 billion. So I think the comparison with energy companies is disproportionate. However, having just admitted that they actually make a loss on some models, on top of the China 'issues', I think a 20% price rise to maintain quality and detail while making a profit for the business is an acceptable move from Bachmann. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 China, it was announced today, is about to become the biggest economy in the world by overtaking the USA several years ahead of previous forecasts. I have little doubt that the Chinese desire the standard of living we take for granted. Why shouldn't they aspire to that? If they imitate the West and price themselves out of the markets they have developed, maybe they'll end up just like us . . . Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
26power Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Quote from first post: "Some items have a lot more hand-applied detail, decoration or stages in the manufacturing process so a decision was made to ensure that prices reflect the cost to produce an individual item." Seems very surprising that previous pricing didn't reflect the cost of production. Which rather begs the question of how prices were determined! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I wonder if all the 2nd hand Bachmann stuff on ebay will go for 20% more than it normally goes for ????? Gostude will be laughing his "Stick of Rock" off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Is it really necessary to again remind the grieving LNER/NER community of the reasons behind the SECR C and LBSCR E4 being modelled? These are locos in full running order on one of the nations most successful preserved railways - the Bluebell. Their sphere of operations in BR days has nothing to do with it. Their visibility to enthusiasts now is the reason they are a commercial stone-bonk certainty to sell. What a loada tosh. There are Q6 ,J27 and J21 in existence. A G5 being built as well . All work or hopefully will be so in the future. With attractive NER liveries as well. There are other NER Locos at the NRM as well just as visible as on the Bluebell. On that thinking why was the A1 and A2 modelled or and dont forget the O4 too Re the Q6 why if they are bad sellers did they do a LMS 0-8-0 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 In response to the suggestion that we will see Bachmann rising prices by 20% every year, I would question this: Wages have been rising for a few years in China I believe. Wages will continue to rise up to 2015. This does not imply that prices will rise 20% every year, especially given that wages are not 100% of the production cost! And yes well done to Bachmann for explaining. It all Makes the brand new 8750 I bought from Hattons in 2008 look like a complete bargain! Or indeed the class 37s from Modelzone two years ago for £50... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 A bit harsh Andy you were not wasting your time; I agree this topic useful informative, however for someone who may have limited funds and now sees that a 20% increase in the price of a model they were planning on buying will be somewhat disappointed and will therefore, potentially have a different opinion. Nigel It may seem rather harsh, but I have felt that the RTR market has enjoyed what are really remarkably good value for the excellent products that have been available in the last few years. We can all get into comparison with the costs of kits (invariably more expensive because of very low volume), hand built models (always much more expensive) or apparently better quality continental models but none of that is relevant. What may actually be happening is that Hornby and Bachmann are taking the opportunity to get their pricing and profit (oops sorry, used a naughty word) back to a commercially viable level. It doesn't therefore follow that there will have to be a major annual increase in following years, as Andy has already pointed out. You will obviously faced with a simple choice (I say you because I don't buy RTR items), you can either buy it or not. No amount of debate on here will coerce the manufacturers to operate at a loss or with an inadequate return. If you choose not to buy their products they might go bust anyway, second hand prices will increase and so you'll loose out that way. If you do buy their products, even in smaller volumes, then they can continue to produce models that the market requires (or at least some of them as not everyone's dreams will be fulfilled). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 It's a good point Doughnut and I understand your angst. I thought the same thing about Hornby where I despaired of posts along the lines of we should accept the increase because it would cost more to build a kit. Undoubtably true but not comparing like with like.Many companies seek to redress increases by making efficiencies, but look at the mess Hornby got themselves into. There can be little doubt that prices in China are increasing and manufacturing capacity is tight (anyone else notice that new commission announcements seem to have dried up) so there are reasons why prices have to increase. I do take the point though and wonder if Bachmann feel they can get away with such a price hike because Hornby have in the main been charging higher prices- note that even after increases Mk1s still are substantially less than something like a Hornby Gresley coach which has attracted considerable comment on here. I do think the way they have gone about it with full and instant public disclosure is commendable. Sorry Chris we are going to have to disagree on the Broadstairs approach . By the other manufacturer with an embargo, do you mean Rapido? I thought it was being announced to all in June and given Jason's commendable use of blogging etc for communication I'd be surprised if there was an embargo. Maybe he has just taken certain people into his confidence. If a manufacturer tells me something and says "say nothing till a given date", that's an embargo. At the time Simon launched the 'Broadstairs' approach', Bachmann's method of announcing to the press was by way of the London Toy Fair - give the journos a catalogue and send them on their way. You can believe me or not, but we got a lot more background information from Hornby in those days than we did from Bachmann. I'm happy that's changed but it's largely down to professionalism by Dennis that today's event was more like a professional full-size railway industry press briefing. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 Q6 has been measured already in CAD to by unknown "men in coats"...so has 69621, 9466, 541, s15 and the radial at Bluebell over a year ago.. Lots of things get researched and even measured but it doesn't mean they all reach the production stage. It's not unknown for a manufacturer's representative (on a day off from the day job) to be spotted looking at something with interest on a preserved railway or in a museum and subsequently passed around underground sages as definitive proof that so and so are 'doing' such and such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 What I don't get is why "stock in the warehouse" has jumped.. It's already bought & paid for, and if over 1 year, from tax purposes should be written down, not up... Even then as its "old".. If its clingy in the warehouse why they believe they will sell more at a higher price ? - if all was honest surely new stock in production would be at the newer rates, drawing a line in the sand... I don't doubt stock in hand is considerable, as is Bachmanns cash in the bank (according to companies house). It's called Last In First Out accounting (LIFO). It means that you have sufficient funds to purchase the replacement stock at the new wholesale price, cover your expenses and maintain positive cash flow. The alternative is FIFO, which can put the business at risk if there have been substantial wholesale price increases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Sympathetic to the problem appreciate the PR explanations, but I'm not buying into all factors. Accepting a 100% salary hike over 5 years from £3 to £6 deserves some question about planning, below are HMRC's minimum wages, http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payerti/forms-updates/rates-thresholds.htm Category of worker Hourly rate from 1 Oct 2013 Aged 21 and above £6.31 Aged 18 to 20 inclusive £5.03 assuming it wasn't Eastern Europe instead, Polish minimum wage is £ 2.27 for instance, Roumania is £1, and I don't see anywhere in the EU set to get a 100% raise in the next five years. Is China really cheaper ? Are we seeing 20% price increases in Europe and the US ?, if not, the two dominant UK majors could be leaving themselves a bit exposed... (BA and Virgin tried that once..) In Bachmanns defence at least there not messing with their sales channels, but then as an ODM/OEM, not just a distributor they probably have a bit more margin to compete with). Not a valid comparison as those economies aren't growing at the same rate as China. But perhaps you have pointed the way for Hornby and Bachman to move their production to Romania. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 It's called Last In First Out accounting (LIFO). It means that you have sufficient funds to purchase the replacement stock at the new wholesale price, cover your expenses and maintain positive cash flow. And equally relevant to the retailers, so don't expect prices of stock on the shelves to be unchanged. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted April 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 30, 2014 But at least when you put the model on the track and run it, it will bring a smile to your face ........ unlike seeing the tumble drier going round and round on top heat full of wet clothing on a wet rainy day. Nah - washing machine on 800 spin does it for me.......... Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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