GWR Toplights Poll

[Neal Ball]

If we could persuade a manufacturer to produce R-T-R Toplight carriages to modern standards, what would you buy?

 

For years we have had the Slaters Toplight kit, which sadly has also not been available - for years! Seen here on my old layout "Wharncliffe Junction"

 

 

The coaches regularly score highly in the annual poll at RMWeb in 2016 - 333 people voted for the carriages, which saw them at number 13 in the poll.

 

 

A few years ago I spoke to several manufacturers about getting a new Toad Brake van launched. I don't think I can lay claim to Hornby's decision to release the AA15, but it would be nice if the Poll at the time played a part! We are very aware that Hornby look at RMWeb and we hope that Bachmann also look on here from time to time. One thing that is clear is that all the companies look at the Wishlist Poll.

 

So if you had to pay for a new RTR Toplight - which one would you buy? How much would you pay? and what era do you model?

 

I doubt they would be cheap - the new Hornby Collett carriages are £45 list price, this could mean a Toplight might be £60 plus(?) - allowing for a couple of years R & D etc.

 

The source of inspiration is all the GW coaches books by Jim Russell; GW coaches from 1890 by Michael Harris; GWS Didcot: http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/guide/coaches.html and the Great Western study website: http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/coach_draw.htm

 

If there is something obvious that I have missed off, please let me know. My suggested choices are based on the fact that the particular diagram seems to have lasted a long time in service, although that might not mean they were still in original condition. In a lot of cases the toplight panels had been plated over, in some cases, this extended to the lower panels as well. Typically the first diagram of Toplights were built pre-WW1* and as a result, some ended up being made up into ambulance trains. Some of them were bought back by the GWR, but were then extensively rebuilt. *Toplight construction continued after WW1

 

Non corridor 48ft stock:

3rd class - C37 - Paddington local services (Main line and City stock) - built @1919

Brake 3rd - D62 - Paddington local services (Main line and City stock) - built 1919 / 1921 condemned 1965 (Preserved at Didcot)

Composite - E101built @1921 - Main line and City stock

 

Non corridor 57ft:

1st A15 built 1915 - lasted until at least 1951/52

Brake 3rd D49 built 1911 Condemned April 1955

Composite E89 built 1911 - condemned 1955

 

 

Corridor 57ft stock:

Third class C32 built1920 last until June 1962 also C35* built 1921 - all ex-Ambulance train. *GWS Didcot

Composite E83 & E85 built 1907/9

Brake 3rd D47 built 1911-12 and 1920 - condemned March 1962 (This is the diagram that Slaters kit represents.)

Brake composite (56ft) E82 - built 1907/8 - condemned May 1961

 

1st corridor Multibar toplight: A13 built 1914 - 70ft- lasted until at least 1951

 

Restaurant H16 built 1908 - modernised in the 1930's - lasted into the 1950's, maybe longer.

Double slip: F21 built 1916 - lasted until at least 1950 - Slip gear removed 1940's but then reinstated later.

Single slip: F15/16 - built 1909

 

Full Brake: K22 built 1915 to 1922 Condemned December 1962

 

edit: I have added 57ft steel panel stock as suggested by Brian McDermott from the wishlist team

C35 3rd class

D56 Brake 3rd

E98/E103 Composite

 

To change your vote, you will need to delete it and start again.

 

We look forward to seeing your thoughts join what would actually sell well.

 

Regards, Neal.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Neal Ball

[The Fatadder]

I would also add that I would buy a pair of 70ft Toplight brakes

But if released in post war livery there are few if any corridor coach designs I wouldn't buy...

[Andy Y]

I've no need whatsoever but I just wanted to say well done on a well-thought through approach.

[Dick Turpin]

Plenty of LNER enthusiasts could use a few on the ports to ports, a right rare old mix of stock from the photos I've seen, so mixed in with some colletts and the odd clerestory or two some toplights would be most welcome indeed. Count me in!

[Miss Prism]

Neal - the C25 wasn't a Toplight. I think it originated as a Dean (clerestory) design, but ended up getting built with an elliptical roof.

[Neal Ball]

Neal - the C25 wasn't a Toplight. I think it originated as a Dean (clerestory) design, but ended up getting built with an elliptical roof.

Correct thank you. What is the 3rd non corridor Toplight? I can't see it at the moment

[Star-rider]

I think I could do with a little time before polling; there is much to think about.

 

However, I would also like to add a “well done” for trying to consolidate people’s wishes; perhaps a manufacturer may take notice.

 

My initial reaction is I want them all / any of them but we would need to focus a bit:

 

Brake third – It seems I need copious quantities of these to build the train formations I need

Composites and thirds – the stuff of manufacturer’s turnover

Full brake – No quality RTR example of any diagram, never mind toplight!

A restaurant car – Ditto

Slips – may be a bit more of a niche market (but not to say I would not buy one!)

 

If I were a manufacturer I think I would want to fix on one body length (I think people would still be drawn to uniform rakes and it makes packaging easier) and it would probably have to be 57’

 

As to how many I would buy, I can be reasonably factual here; I took seven of the Hornby Bow Ends last year (and purchased the Bristolian train pack to get hold of three more) and have every intention of buying one of each of the forthcoming releases. Had they released a Brake Composite and a Full Brake I would certainly have picked up those as well.

[Clearwater]

Many thanks Neal - excellent initiative. I suspect the same applies to other Churchward era coaches that have never been seen in rtr.

 

David

[Neal Ball]

Thanks for the comments star-rider. I agree with your comments about needing time, it took me all weekend to get my head round it all.

 

It's not an easy topic, full of potential minefields if anyone is going to do justice to carriage XXXX which could have been slightly different in 1930 to how it was built. Never mind the changes again before it was condemned in the 50's or 60's

 

Maybe I should add another question - what two items, must you have!

 

K22; slip; restaurant?

[Siberian Snooper]

If they were released in the lake livery and the 1922 livery I would probably buy a couple of each.

 

Thanks for the poll, I hope one of the manufacturers takes some notice.

[HowardGWR]

Just came across this Neal and will give it thought, thank you.  One thing, your description in the poll of 1920 -1939 as 'shirtbutton era', could be perhaps split down into the various livery periods (I count at least 4, namely 1920 -1925 panelled with garter, 1925-1929 plain jane with shield, 1929-1934 lined or double-lined with shield, 1934-1939 single-lined with sb).

 

It is the paint that RTR customers buy, which is why Hornby offered the third of my list above and the BR one.  With an older coach, it depends when they went in for overhaul, but I suspect all of the above could have appeared on toplights. 

Edited January 8, 2017 by HowardGWR

[Miss Prism]

Neal - there were no non-corridor 3rds, either short or long. edit: sorry, yes there was one, the C37 48' for the Mainline & City sets

 

The standard 4-car non-corridor set, e.g. a Birmingham 'B set' (and whatever it was called in the London district), for short or long vehicles, was 2 brake 3rds sandwiching 2 composites.

 

'Bars 2' panelled (D49 + E89):

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls887.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1730.htm

 

Later steel-sided multibars (D67 + E103): 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1751.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2538.htm

 

and 70' footers (D55 + E97) in colour!:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls201.htm

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Neal Ball]

Neal - there were no non-corridor 3rds, either short or long.

 

The standard 4-car non-corridor set, e.g. a Birmingham 'B set' (and whatever it was called in the London district), for short or long vehicles, was 2 brake 3rds sandwiching 2 composites.

 

'Bars 2' panelled (D49 + E89):

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls887.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1730.htm

 

 

 

Later steel-sided multibars (D67 + E103): 

 

 

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1751.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2538.htm

 

 

 

 

and 70' footers (D55 + E97) in colour!:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls201.htm

 

Looks like we need to add a new 51xx to the Poll. Thanks for the info.

[Coach bogie]

Correct thank you. What is the 3rd non corridor Toplight? I can't see it at the moment

I am not sure there is one. The suburban sets tended to run in 4 car sets Brake third, compo, comp. brake third, for example in the midlands there were built for region toplight sets D49,E89,E89,D49.

 

It is a complex list and a mix of wooden and steel sided stock. I would like to say I would be buying but it is too late for me, having spent the last thirty years building my own. I am writing this as I take break from working on a E73, 70ft toplight brake tri-compo. With sides and kits from Hammond, Charlton, Blacksmith, Geen, Legg, Frogmore, Hayes, Worsley, PC, 5522 etc, I am not alone in filling the gaps ourselves.

 

I wish your venture well. Assuming it will take two - three years from design to manufacture, I will have finished the last 10 toplights I need for the 'Master Plan, in that time.

 

I tend to buy some of the new releases out of support. I purchased at full set of Hornby Colletts, which I have run once and have sat in their boxes since.

 

If I new a H16 was coming, I might wait. The kit I have is a %$£"!

 

Good luck.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Miss Prism]

I think Howard is quite right in saying "It is the paint that RTR customers buy", but the first thing that struck me about the poll was that anyone answering the 'era' question will (or perhaps should) be conscious that most of the coaches running in that 'era', for a typical depiction, will be (say) ten or so years old. 

 

Much as though I like the non-corridor stock, I really can't see it being commercially attractive - it takes a brave manufacturer to choose non-corridor stock in preference to corridor stock. Nor can I see any 70' stock finding a large enough marketplace. Slaters were disappointed with the sales of their kits, but I think their choice of diagrams was astute.

[St Enodoc]

I've got two VERY ancient Ratio wooden kits on my shelf, a third and a van third. Anybody got a couple of Slaters kits they don't want?

[Penrhos1920]

Would've voted if ther were some normal 70'ers in the last section.

[Karhedron]

Where is the option to vote for them in N gauge? 

[Natalie]

 

Neal - there were no non-corridor 3rds, either short or long.

 

 

Please forgive my ignorance in not knowing a huge amount about  GR coaches except the ML&City stock  of various flavours but I'm pretty there that there was a non-corridor 3rd in the six Toplight ML&City sets. In fact I am looking at a picture of one right now (well I think I am :-) ) in John Lewis' excellent article on 'London Local C Trains' in GWRJ No 20- of 3910 (part of Local C Set no 5) at Reading. According to the article for the six sets built there were twelve C37 vehicles nos 3901-12 allowing for two in each set. I can recommend this article to read for any interested in these fine coaches.

 

As an aside don't forget that the ML&City stock in all its versions (4 wheel, 48' Toplight and 48' artic sets) was regularly hauled by Metropolitan Railway electric locos between Paddington and Aldgate. A set of the Toplights might tempt all those who have bought Heljan's model of the so-called MetVic rebuilds and need something authentic to run behind them. Two sets of the 4 wheelers were loaned to the Met in the late 1910s/early 1920s to help with a severe stock shortage on the Met and were used between the City, Baker Street and Uxbridge (Belmont Road for want of a better description).

 

Good luck with your survey and hope that something positive is the result.

[lofty1966]

Where is the option to vote for them in N gauge?

Guessing your #### outta luck on that front me Ol'Froot ! Edited January 9, 2017 by lofty1966

[HowardGWR]

Neal,

I don't see any 70ft thirds (C33, C35, C38) nor the multibar equivalents in D and E diagrams.  You only list an A.  Is there a reason that I missed?  As a general point, I suspect that not modelling WD sale rebuilds would be a good move by an RTR manufacturer, unless they are recorded as having been rebuilt to the specific diagram (e.g many in C35).  Producing  WW1 ambulance versions might be a clever move in time for Nov 11th 2018?.

 

To add an idea to my livery 'pop chart', I imagine that any toplight now in preservation could be a good choice, as we see now that these RTR locos and coaches are often badge engineered and sold that way.

 

I model (or try to) the era w/e 11th November 1933   :-)) so any types  running in the early thirties in that livery period (or just earlier) would do well, as my cohort is the greatest membership of RTR buyers, as was proven recently by the Hornby Colletts.  

 

I couldn't complete the poll, as the diagrams I was interested in were not present and one was forced by the software to answer every question.  Could that category be made optional, or could you expand the list please? 

 

Thank you for your effort.

Edited January 9, 2017 by HowardGWR

[Clearwater]

As an aside, another thread has Rrp for the birdcage coaches as £64.95. Probably a good first order estimate for any toplights sadly

 

David

[81C]

I've kept my votes to the 57 footers there would be more cost involved for various coach lengths I couldn't see manufacturers wanting to make the odd 56' or 70' coach on top of 6-7 the same length.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit typo's

Edited January 9, 2017 by 81C

[unravelled]

I don't really know enough, even with the info in this thread, to give good answers to the poll. But I am looking at the K22 and other vehicles suitable for mid to late 50s use. The cost/quantity imponderable is best covered by saying I'd spend up to £200, for hopefully 4, probably3 vehicles.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Miss Prism]

Natalie - you're right. I had forgotten about the C37s.

 

They're even less of a commericial proposition than the normal non-corridors!