Southern coaches on the S&D

[transferman]

Hi Guys,

 

I have just started modelling again and was intending to model S&D at Radstock.

 

Just collecting bits and pieces before I start track laying.

 

However, I have failed at the first hurdle as I cannot find a definitive source of info regarding the coaching stock.

 

I have loads of books about the S&D and was hoping I could get my info from them, alas not.

 

Firstly I tried researching the Pines Express and a typical coaching make up for it.

 

Again I have failed.

 

Recently I have been searching for info on the Southern Coaching stock used regularly on the S&D both Maunsell & Bullied but again have failed miserably.

 

I am modelling in era 5 around 1960 ish.

 

Any held or direction would be much appreciated.

 

Mocco

 

[Karhedron]

A mishmash but Southern stock was definitely common. I believe the old low-window sets 390-399 worked out their retirement on the S&D. Here is a shot of set 392 with an additional strengthening vehicle at Masbury summit in 1959.

 

[chris45lsw]

A mishmash but Southern stock was definitely common. I believe the old low-window sets 390-399 worked out their retirement on the S&D. Here is a shot of set 392 with an additional strengthening vehicle at Masbury summit in 1959.

 

Yes, for many years the usual S&D 'local' train was an SR Maunsell low window 3-set in the series 390-399 as in the photo.  For example in Summer 1959: 390, 392 & 394 to 399 were allocated and in Summer 1961: 390 & 394 to 399 were rostered.  a strengthening additional loose coach would usually be added during the Summer.  For Winter 1959/60 Bulleid 59ft 'multidoor' 3-sets 963 to 972 appeared for the first time.  But they went back to other SR services in Summer 1960 and the Maunsells returned.  The pattern was repeated for Winter 1960/61 (Bulleids) and Summer 1961 (Maunsells) but from 1962 - 1963 the Bulleid sets 963 to 972 held sway.  For 1964/65 no particular sets were allocated and a mish mash of SR, WR & LMR stock could appear.  

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[bike2steam]

Two useful books, if you can get hold of copies as both are out of print, are from the 'The District Controllers View' series by Xpress Publications, parts 4 & 5, on the S&DJR.

Inter-regional regular ( timetabled) passenger trains were usually made up of 2 rakes, one from each end region of start/finish of the train, EXCEPT the 'Pines' which both sets came from the LMR. 

[Oldddudders]

It must be a trick of perspective or something, but the two BSKs do not appear to have identical ventilator arrangements in that picture. Since the CK seems to follow the line of ventilators on the further vehicle, the nearer BSK seems to be more offset. As these were 3218 and 3219 it seems odd.

[SRman]

It must be a trick of perspective or something, but the two BSKs do not appear to have identical ventilator arrangements in that picture. Since the CK seems to follow the line of ventilators on the further vehicle, the nearer BSK seems to be more offset. As these were 3218 and 3219 it seems odd.

 

The ventilators on all three vehicles are offset from the centre line, towards the compartment sides. As such, the CK and BSK at the rear have them lined up with each other, but the leading BSK, being turned 180 degrees compared the trailing one, has the ventilators offset the other way. If you look at the water tanks on the roofs, the ventilators seem to be roughly in line (well, very roughly!) with one edge of each tank.

Edited March 7, 2018 by SRman

[Dunsignalling]

It must be a trick of perspective or something, but the two BSKs do not appear to have identical ventilator arrangements in that picture. Since the CK seems to follow the line of ventilators on the further vehicle, the nearer BSK seems to be more offset. As these were 3218 and 3219 it seems odd.

That's because the ventilators were sited over the middle of the compartments and thus offset from the centre line of the roof.

 

The corridors weren't "handed" so in a set, the two brakes had the vents offset to opposite sides and only one would match those on the CK.

 

John 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[RFS]

This is a photo gallery well worth browsing as it includes a wide range of train formations over the latter years of the S&D - http://railphotoprints.uk/p752970880

[AdeMoore]

This is a photo gallery well worth browsing as it includes a wide range of train formations over the latter years of the S&D - http://railphotoprints.uk/p752970880

Excellent resource thanks for that.

[transferman]

Many thanks guys for all that loverly information.

 

Keep me busy for a while.

 

Thanks again.

[TheSignalEngineer]

If you join Robert Carroll's Yahoo Group there are copies of a lot of carriage working notice in the files section. You will find The Pines in the S&D period in the London Midland Region books. The S&D trains to Bristol can be found in one of the Southern books.

The group address is https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info

Edited March 7, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[neilkirby]

There was also a 6 page article titled 'Coaching Stock on the S&D in BR days' in Backtrack April 1995. (Numerous copies are available on Ebay)

 

Neil

 

PS Radstock is what I intend to build. . . . One day

Edited March 7, 2018 by neilkirby

[phil_sutters]

All Dad's photos on the Bath to Bournemouth can be seen at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/4074-sdjr-bath-to-bournemouth/  Mind you he was never that interested in rolling stock and actually cropped photos down to leave just the locos.

Good luck with your Radstock project. We lived four miles away in the late 50s & early 60s.

Edited March 7, 2018 by phil_sutters

[bécasse]

After September 1962, there was a regular through working of a Bulleid 3-set (from the final 850-865 series) on the 08.35 semi-fast from Waterloo which was detached at Bournemouth (initially West, later Central) and worked forward as a semi-fast service to Bath and Bristol and (until the line closed) Portishead! The through working wasn't advertised as such but happened every day, I remember travelling on it from Waterloo to Evercreech Junction in 1965 en route to visit the Highbridge branch. It was incidentally the only day time train to call (unadvertised) at Templecombe Lower. It must have been a 2 (perhaps even 3) day diagram but I have never been able to work out exactly how the sets got back.

 

It is difficult to work out exactly which of those 16 sets would have been involved because they weren't all maintained as 3-car sets. I have identified sets 858 and 861 in photos which show this working - the former is most interesting because from summer 1963 it included brake second S 5922 which had been in the short-lived 2-car set 864 which formed the Swanage portion of the Royal Wessex in 1962/63, both vehicles gaining BR roundels for this reason. One of Phil Sutters' late fathers' photos (see previous post) shows a Bulleid brake coach with  this roundel and this can only have been S 5922 in set 858.

 

These Bulleid coaches were all but identical to the ones modelled by Graham Farish in N. There were very minor differences in the under frame, the roof-mounted water tanks were longer, and, by 1962, the end steps had been removed (and electrification flashes added) - and, of course, there was that one-off roundel.

[woodenhead]

To take this a bit further back in time, were LSWR coaches were used after grouping?

 

I am thinking of LMS locos hauling ex LSWR stock

[bécasse]

Grouping didn't really affect the S&DJ except for through carriages, as it retained its own joint stock until July 1930. The Southern then absorbed the coaching stock, but much of it would have continued to work on the line, gradually being repainted into Southern green. I don't think that ex-LSWR stock appeared on the line much until nationalisation.

[chris45lsw]

Grouping didn't really affect the S&DJ except for through carriages, as it retained its own joint stock until July 1930. The Southern then absorbed the coaching stock, but much of it would have continued to work on the line, gradually being repainted into Southern green. I don't think that ex-LSWR stock appeared on the line much until nationalisation.

The S&D coaching stock was shared between the SR and LMS in 1930 but didn't last long under their new owners - the SR ones were withdrawn by 1938 and the LMS ones lasted a bit longer in a few cases.  LSWR corridor 3-sets appeared on the line in the 1930s and were the mainstay of S&D 'internal' services until they were withdrawn and gradually replaced by the Maunsell sets. For instance in the Summer of 1953 LSWR sets 340, 348, 406 & 421, and Maunsell sets 391 to 395 were allocated to S&D services.

 

Chris KT

[JZ]

It depends how accurate you want to be. Mid 1950s Pines would normally be Stanier stock including a 12 wheel diner. In later years this could be Mk1s in maroon, with the odd Gresley thrown in, the last one had two Gresley coaches in the formation. I have seen a picture that included a chocolate and cream Mk1. For local services, Maunsells and Stanier suburbans and latterly, Bulleids. Hawksworth coaches made a foray in the last few years. The only type I haven't noticed is Thompsons. That is not to say they didn't appear, but in distant shots, the profile is similar to Stanier stock. Myself, I give an impression of what it was like, the layout takes bits and pieces of the northern extension and fuses it into something which, I think, looks S&D. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Pines was mainly LMS Period 3 stock in the mid-1950s. The later formation was discussed in the old forum. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25064

 

In August 1960 there was still an LMS 12-wheel diner in use with a mix of LMS and Mk1 coaches.

Lickey Bank up Pines Express ascending geograph-2744295-by-Ben-Brooksbank [CC BY-SA 2.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0)], by Ben Brooksbank (From geograph.org.uk), from Wikimedia Commons

 

 

If you look at the Carriage Working Notices on the Yahoo Group I mentioned earlier the LMR Midland Lines for Summer 1960 shows through trains from Bournemouth West to the LMR and ER via Birmingham which reverse at Bath. There have a variety of stock including at least one which is ER and SR stock on alternate days. It does not give actual vehicles, just the types.

 

[tingleytim]

After September 1962, there was a regular through working of a Bulleid 3-set (from the final 850-865 series) on the 08.35 semi-fast from Waterloo which was detached at Bournemouth (initially West, later Central) and worked forward as a semi-fast service to Bath and Bristol and (until the line closed) Portishead! The through working wasn't advertised as such but happened every day, I remember travelling on it from Waterloo to Evercreech Junction in 1965 en route to visit the Highbridge branch. It was incidentally the only day time train to call (unadvertised) at Templecombe Lower. It must have been a 2 (perhaps even 3) day diagram but I have never been able to work out exactly how the sets got back.

 

 

Did this really happen before the semi-fast from Bournemouth transferred from West to Central in 1965?  I caught the 11.40 from West several times and don’t remember the three coaches and bogie van arriving as part of a London train.  My 1964 Southern timetable shows the 8.35 from Waterloo dividing at Central and arriving at West at 11.33, only giving seven minutes.  I am certain the engine and coaches for the 11.40 were in the platform well before this and even had time to photograph the train from a different platform.  I would have noted any frantic activity to put the S&D engine on the train at the last minute, especially if there was a late arrival.

[bécasse]

Did this really happen before the semi-fast from Bournemouth transferred from West to Central in 1965?  I caught the 11.40 from West several times and don’t remember the three coaches and bogie van arriving as part of a London train.  My 1964 Southern timetable shows the 8.35 from Waterloo dividing at Central and arriving at West at 11.33, only giving seven minutes.  I am certain the engine and coaches for the 11.40 were in the platform well before this and even had time to photograph the train from a different platform.  I would have noted any frantic activity to put the S&D engine on the train at the last minute, especially if there was a late arrival.

 

Whilst I don't have personal experience of travelling via Bournemouth West, I have seen photos of the Bulleid set arriving at Portishead with the caption stating that they had originated at London Waterloo and the Portishead branch closed before Bournemouth West. Furthermore, it was my understanding that at the time of the "temporary" closure of Bournemouth West (which I vaguely remember as taking effect in the middle of August 1965 with virtually no public notice), the carriage workings weren't altered although they worked to/from stabling sidings rather than BW itself (propelled from/to Branksome?). That would have made great sense as suddenly changing very involved carriage working diagrams, which were sometimes 3 days long, in the middle of the busy period would have involved a huge amount of work for which the resources were probably not available. Although I think that these trains ran six days a week, I am not sure that the carriage workings would have been the same on Saturdays, at least during the summer timetable.

Edited October 11, 2018 by bécasse

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hello,

 

Pines Express September-June 1959

 

This link might answer what was a typical  formation Sept-June timetable.

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Jack Benson
Updated information

[DWSHARPE1]

I don't know whether you are still interested in coaching stock but you have chosen a period of coaching stock change.  At this date BR Standard Mk1 coaches were rare except on the Pines Express.  At this stage, one set was Mk 1 while the other was still ex LMS in Maroon  although in both cases there would still have been the odd crimson and cream coach in the rake.  If you are modelling in 00 Hornby make the Stanier coaches as do Dapol and both Hornby and Bachmann make Mark 1 coaches.

The coaching stock at this date used Maunsell small window coaches still available from Hornby sets 390-399 in green while 1 set was still in crimson/cream.  In early 1960s these were replaced by Bulleid 57' sets in green.  These consisted of 2 brakes 2/3rds and a composite.  There were Stanier sets of Brake 3rds and composite in maroon (I remember travelling in one of these).  There was one set of Stanier coaches which originally started from Gloucester but later ran from Bristol and consisted of Stanier or Porthole or mixed.  It consisted of 2 brake 3rds 1 second and one composite.  From 1958 one set also alternated with this and used ex GW stock.  This was a mixture of Collett and Hawksworth stock also a 4 coach at that time.  

You can also add full brakes (originally LMS but LNE were also seen and occasionally Collett ex GW)  were added.  Vans could also be added carrying parcels or post as well as perishables and were attached.  

You haven't said what part of the line you are considering.  In any case, the first train up from Templecombe often consisted of 3 southern coaches and had 2 non-corridor coaches at the end.  These were always ex LMS until 1958.  They would sit in BGP until 6 pm when they would go to Binegar and back.  These would be attached to a later train and return to Templecombe.  These coaches available from Hornby.

This was the composition of coaches on the branch.  These would go between Highbridge and Templecombe and back also to Bailey Gate and these collected 6 wheel milk tanks in the afternoon.  From 1958 ex GW coaches started to replace the older ex LMS coaches.  The first of these were the GW B sets.  Other non-corridor  GW coaches followed.  Eventually corridor coaches were included.

I find it interesting the variation of stock used as well as the locomotives.  Enjoy!

[TravisM]

I think if I was starting again, the S&D would be my first choice closely followed by the S&C .  As I grew up near Weston-super-Mare, the S&D has always high on my modelling interests and the thought of watching steam hauled 3/4 coach local trains and coal traffic from the Radstock coal fields rumble by on the layout would be very therapeutic.

[down the sdjr]

11 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I think if I was starting again, the S&D would be my first choice closely followed by the S&C .  As I grew up near Weston-super-Mare, the S&D has always high on my modelling interests and the thought of watching steam hauled 3/4 coach local trains and coal traffic from the Radstock coal fields rumble by on the layout would be very therapeutic.

The fact that Evening Star pulled a stopping 3 coach service through such wonderful countryside fills me with awe. I stand at locations such as the bridge at Durweston and imagine it passing over, must have been such a sight.