Jump to content


Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.

Photo

Is Overseas Modelling Interest Declining?




  • Please log in to reply
212 replies to this topic

#201 whart57

whart57

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 66 posts

Posted Yesterday, 07:18

Your comments about scale are also extremely simplistic. Dimensional liberties are routinely taken with Australian locomotives and rolling stock to make them in HO scale because we used smaller loading gauges than many other countries. A similar situation would apply to UK models. European, UK and US O gauges are all different too - who is right?

 

It did, and does. The mistake British modellers made was to formalise those "liberties". That means that when technology improved and smaller motors became available that locos didn't shrink to a proper HO size when updated models came out but stayed with the top heavy OO. A modern Bachman carries that legacy even though it doesn't need to.


  • Agree x 1

Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.

#202 Craigw

Craigw

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 418 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted Yesterday, 07:35

I have no problem with people walking by a layout because it's not of a prototype they are interested in. I do it myself (OMG another N gauge four track mainline .....). It's the people who harangue others with their prejudices and seek to browbeat magazine editors into keeping out models and layouts because they are "foreign" that I was objecting to. Of course most model what they are familiar with, but there is a line between being attracted to the familiar and being hostile to the foreign, a line that in the UK with our current febrile politics is being constantly crossed.

 

As I stated in my post, exactly the same thing happens here. I was involved for a good number of years with our local magazine and the same abuse and remarks were received by the magazine if they covered foreign modelling. Nothing changes and it has precious little to do with politics despite your attempts to draw a very long bow and draw them together. There are people here who model over seas railways too. Some model them because they are interested in the prototype, others collect brands and there are some who model US or UK especially because it is so cheap compared to the local models. (a NSWGR D50 class without DCC retails for $680 - about 410 GBP)

 

The attitude is world wide. One of the few areas where people actively model a foreign prototype is military modelling, where modelling the forces of the Third Reich outnumbers any other area of interest.

 

I am a seventh generation Australian and am often asked why I model the GWR rather than our local scene. The answer is fairly simple really. I like accurate track work and wheels so model to P4 standards and I like the GWR. If you think you cop abuse for modelling a foreign railway, try adding P4 to the equation!

 

Regards,

 

Craigw



#203 Chris M

Chris M

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 314 posts

Posted Yesterday, 08:10

I have no problem with people walking by a layout because it's not of a prototype they are interested in. I do it myself (OMG another N gauge four track mainline .....). It's the people who harangue others with their prejudices and seek to browbeat magazine editors into keeping out models and layouts because they are "foreign" that I was objecting to. Of course most model what they are familiar with, but there is a line between being attracted to the familiar and being hostile to the foreign, a line that in the UK with our current febrile politics is being constantly crossed.

N gauge four track mainline layouts are the greatest layouts known to mankind. Love em. ❤ . Don't know how anybody couldn't find them fascinating whether foreign or British based. I am in no way biased but mine is in this month's Hornby Magazine. :)

We all have our own likes and dislikes besides whether foreign or not. Layout type and or scale will cause some people to stop and look and others to walk past. I tend to walk past cameo layouts - there are some fascinating ones but I find most of them boring. Others find all cameo layouts very interesting. That's fine and nobody is right or wrong, just the same as being interested or not in foreign based layouts.

Edited by Chris M, Yesterday, 08:12 .


#204 Suzie

Suzie

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,005 posts

Posted Yesterday, 08:39

You mean it is possible to build N-gauge layouts bigger than 2' x 4' with 180 degree curves at both ends?


  • Funny x 3

#205 Craigw

Craigw

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 418 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted Yesterday, 08:52

It did, and does. The mistake British modellers made was to formalise those "liberties". That means that when technology improved and smaller motors became available that locos didn't shrink to a proper HO size when updated models came out but stayed with the top heavy OO. A modern Bachman carries that legacy even though it doesn't need to.

 

No it does not. An NMRA RP110 profile wheel is 2.7mm wide.  Do a few sums on the impact that will have on a typical British steam or diesel locomotive modelled to 3.5mm scale. This is a problem faced in our local modelling scene as the earlier NSW locos and wagons were comparable to the UK loading gauge. 

 

You can have the choice of a top heavy legacy or a widened bottom sadly. changing the UK scene to HO scale will introduce a whole new set of issues.

 

Craig W


  • Agree x 1

#206 whart57

whart57

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 66 posts

Posted Yesterday, 11:27

You want to hear the arguments within the 3mm Society over whether 14.2mm gauge is really practical if you want outside cylinders. Their finescale wheels are a tad over scale width. Wheels wider than scale is an issue, but it's not only the UK that has that issue, and not all UK loco designs would have problems, BR standards would have fewer issues than pre-Group 4-4-0s. If the Greenly OO compromise had not been standardised on in the 1950s manufacturers would have found solutions, wider splashers, piston rods off centre in cylinders - all the tricks EM gauge and finescale 3mm scale modellers have to apply to overcome that issue.


  • Agree x 1

#207 EddieB

EddieB

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,528 posts
  • LocationEssex

Posted Yesterday, 15:23

One aspect of this discussion that seems to have been overlooked is whether there are commercial ties between the model railway press that serve to influence their content in favour of proprietary British outline models. Previous discussions have speculated whether magazine reviews are impartial, given that such reviews sell magazines and an unfavourable (albeit honest) review might stem the supply of future loaned models for review. There would appear to be less of a tie-in with overseas models, whose availability for review is often down to retailers loaning models on a less frequent basis.

To me, taken as a whole, the current range of magazines tend toward greater connection with the major manufacturers/importers and rtr products than in the past. They are unlikely to bite the hands that feed them - and overseas prototype or any scratch built models put less food on their tables than promoting Hornmann and Bachby products.
  • Agree x 2

#208 Pacific231G

Pacific231G

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,685 posts

Posted Yesterday, 22:14

One aspect of this discussion that seems to have been overlooked is whether there are commercial ties between the model railway press that serve to influence their content in favour of proprietary British outline models. Previous discussions have speculated whether magazine reviews are impartial, given that such reviews sell magazines and an unfavourable (albeit honest) review might stem the supply of future loaned models for review. There would appear to be less of a tie-in with overseas models, whose availability for review is often down to retailers loaning models on a less frequent basis.

To me, taken as a whole, the current range of magazines tend toward greater connection with the major manufacturers/importers and rtr products than in the past. They are unlikely to bite the hands that feed them - and overseas prototype or any scratch built models put less food on their tables than promoting Hornmann and Bachby products.

You may be right and I wonder if it's signifcant that the one remaining magazine focussing on non-British modelling is owned by a company whose main product is track.

 

What does annoy me is that MRJ, supposedly dedicated to fine scale railway modelling, ignores almost all fine scale modelling that isn't based on British (or Irish) prototypes. The obvious exception was Pempoul but even they could hardly ignore the Gravetts' superlative level of modelling.   The MRJ index shows eleven articles by the now sadly late Richard Chown but none of them are about his excellent models of late nineteenth century French rolling stock and there's not a mention of his two layouts Courcelle Part and Allendenac. The name of the latter was a tribute to another superb 0 scale modeller Dennis Allenden but, because he focussed on French locos of the Belle Epoque his work too is all but forgotten despite being a prolific contributor to MRC before his untimely death in I think 1974.


Edited by Pacific231G, Today, 13:54 .

  • Agree x 2
  • Like x 1

#209 Barry Ten

Barry Ten

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,229 posts
  • LocationWales

Posted Yesterday, 23:42

You may be right and I wonder if it's signifcant that the one remaining magazine focussing on non-British modelling is owned by a company whose main product is track.

 

What does annoy me is that MRJ, supposedly dedicated to fine scale railway modelling, ignores almost all fine scale modelling that isn't based on British (or Irish) prototypes. The obvious exception was Pempoul but even they could hardly ignore the Gravetts' superlative level of modelling.   The MRJ index shows eleven articles by the now sadly late Richard Chown but none of them are about his excellent models of late nineteenth century French rolling stock and there's not a mention of his two layouts Courcelle Part and Allendenac. The name of the latter was a tribute to another superb 0 scale modeller Dennis Allenden but, because he focussed on French locos of the Belle Epoque his work too is all but forgotten despite being a prolific contributor to MRC before his untimely death in 1974. .

 

In fairness to MRJ, haven't they given quite good coverage lately to that beautiful French P87 layout, with the street trackage, factory sidings, etc? I would agree that it would be good to see more of that sort of thing, however.


  • Agree x 1

#210 Chris M

Chris M

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 314 posts

Posted Today, 07:49

You mean it is possible to build N-gauge layouts bigger than 2' x 4' with 180 degree curves at both ends?


Oh yes - mine is 7' x 3' 3" . I do have a second one which is only 44" x 27". Both are of course brilliant layouts albeit based on British practice. My foreign based layout is a single track dogbone and is about 200' long. I like contrasts.
  • Like x 1

#211 Pacific231G

Pacific231G

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,685 posts

Posted Today, 10:40

One aspect of this discussion that seems to have been overlooked is whether there are commercial ties between the model railway press that serve to influence their content in favour of proprietary British outline models. Previous discussions have speculated whether magazine reviews are impartial, given that such reviews sell magazines and an unfavourable (albeit honest) review might stem the supply of future loaned models for review. There would appear to be less of a tie-in with overseas models, whose availability for review is often down to retailers loaning models on a less frequent basis.

To me, taken as a whole, the current range of magazines tend toward greater connection with the major manufacturers/importers and rtr products than in the past. They are unlikely to bite the hands that feed them - and overseas prototype or any scratch built models put less food on their tables than promoting Hornmann and Bachby products.

Except that Hornby and Bachmann are in the H0 market as well. Hornby owns  Jouef, Rivarossi, Electrotren and Lima (as well as Armold in N and TT) and Bachmann owns Lilliput.

For a long time Hornby UK seemed reluctant to market its H0 brands in the UK but that seems to be changing. Liliput used to include a fairly wide range, I have a couple of their SNCF 140Cs,  though their current catalogue does seem to be all German.  

 

 

In fairness to MRJ, haven't they given quite good coverage lately to that beautiful French P87 layout, with the street trackage, factory sidings, etc? I would agree that it would be good to see more of that sort of thing, however.

The odd thing does appear and hopefully they are starting to take a rather broader view.  I doubt though if the proportion of MRJ's content relating to the modelling of non-British Isles modelling is anything like as high as the proportion of British fine scale modellers (however you define that) working in those areas. 

What constitutes "fine scale modelling" may be a bit distorted by the general assumption that you're a fine scale modeller if you depart from 00 (or the equivalent ghastly British compromises in other scales) to say EM without necessarily going to to the Proto scales whereas the distinction is not so obvious when, as in H0 and TT (1:120) the commonly used gauge is already correct for the scale.  


Edited by Pacific231G, Today, 13:55 .

  • Agree x 1
  • Like x 1

#212 tetsudofan

tetsudofan

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,093 posts
  • LocationSouth East UK

Posted Today, 11:51

Except that Hornby and Bachmann are in the H0 market as well. Hornby owns  Jouef, Rivarossi, Electrotren and Lima (as well as Armold in N and TT) and Bachmann owns Lilliput.

 

 

Agree with what you say about Hornby but not about Bachmann as its my understanding that Bachmann UK does not own Lilliput but is owned by Kader who, as well as owning Bachmann UK, also own Lilliput, Bachmann USA and Bachmann China.

 

Keith


  • Agree x 2

#213 Pacific231G

Pacific231G

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,685 posts

Posted Today, 12:39

Agree with what you say about Hornby but not about Bachmann as its my understanding that Bachmann UK does not own Lilliput but is owned by Kader who, as well as owning Bachmann UK, also own Lilliput, Bachmann USA and Bachmann China.

 

Keith

I don't think there is a Bachmann UK as such. Liliput, Graham Farish, Branchline are all part of Bachmann Europe plc.

 

Looking at the box my 140C came in, the brand is Liliput (First Class) but the company listed on the box is Bachmann Europe Plc. 90518 Altdorf bei Nürnberg (website www.liliput.de) The box has German as its primary language with the "not suitable for children under 14" notice in German, then English then French. It was of course Made in China and I bought it from the Bachmann stand at Ally Pally a few years ago.  On its UK website Bachmann Europe Plc is a company registered in Leicestershire but I don't know if that's a separare Kader subsidiary with the same name. In any case Bachmann Europe's website marketing appears to be seamless for its various brands. .








Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.