Which direction should catch points go?

[Black Sheep]

I know catch points are to protect a mainline / passenger line from a goods yard or sidings by causing a controlled derailment, but, since PECO produce an N gauge catch point both left hand and right hand, does it matter which direction I am sending the controlled dreailment in the event of the catch point being used for its purpose?

 

I presume derailing away from the passenger line or away from an embankment?

 

thanks

[Kris]

Every location is different but normally you would expect to see them sending a runaway train away from the line being protected.

[Donw]

There are both catch points and trap points. Catch points catch runaways such as a wagons running downhill after a coupling break and can be found on main lines as well as others. Trap points are there to prevent the passenger lines from being fouled by say an over enthusiastic shunt and are placed to derail vehicles away from the protected line. In all cases the safety of passengers on other lines is paramount.

Don

[Oldddudders]

If the product is described as a catch point, then it is as Donw says, designed for use at the start of an upwards incline, such that a vehicle running back will be sent "safely" off into the cess, i.e. the left hand side of the track in the direction of travel in the UK, so a right-hand point would be appropriate. Trap points often look just like ordinary points - they direct vehicles typically into a short stub of track with a buffer stop or sand drag, away from the running line the vehicle or train would otherwise have joined.

 

Catch points - but not trap points - began to be abolished in the mid-70s, when BR increasingly became a fully-fitted railway, meaning that vehicles were less likely to run back in the event of coupling failure.

[Black Sheep]

this is the item in question:

 

http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/l.aspx?k=1039062

 

from the descriptions given, I assume this is intended to catch runaway wagons at the bottom of a hill, not to stop an enthusiastic shunt from ending up on the main line?

[Oldddudders]

this is the item in question:

 

http://www.anticsonl....aspx?k=1039062

 

from the descriptions given, I assume this is intended to catch runaway wagons at the bottom of a hill, not to stop an enthusiastic shunt from ending up on the main line?

Yes, that is a catch point, designed to do as you say. In the event that a train needs to pass over it in the wrong direction, a point-handle is provided to pull the (single) blade across. That right-hand configuration is the one most often needed in the UK.

[Black Sheep]

what does a trap point look like?

 

would a set-track point look wrong against all my other streamline points?

code 80 N guage btw

[beast66606]

what does a trap point look like?

 

Like that picture ... but without the run off, which is the bit of moulded plastic instead of a true bit of rail.

 

Imagine a normal point, and cut it off between the blades and the frog, that's a double bladed trap, make one of the rails solid and that's a single bladed trap.

 

Very rough drawing

 

[Black Sheep]

so is it worth getting that catch point and modifying it to produce a single bladed trap?

[beast66606]

so is it worth getting that catch point and modifying it to produce a single bladed trap?

 

Personally I would be happy using it as is, it's certainly a vast improvement over the 99.9999% of layouts which need traps but don't have them.

[richbrummitt]

That is an option. Often catch points and trap points would have looked very similar, especially the older the configurations were. Beast makes a good point that double bladed trap points became common, particularly where the lines were curved, because it was found that a stray vehicle could still foul the running lines unless it was steered away from the running line by the second switched rail, rather than simply derailed.

 

OT but there were a great number of trap point designs. I can show you in GWR switch and crossing practise sometime the various 'standard' types they had.

[Black Sheep]

Was a trap fitted to every goods exit? I'm sure I've seen a couple of photos of railways in the lakes that didn't have them, mainly terminous stations such as Lakeside or have I just missed it when looking at other parts of the photo?

 

Rich, having seen my layout under construction, what would you suggest?

not sure how much the GW switch and crossing practice will be much help, didn't they do things the 'proper' way while everyone else did it the way that worked?

and should I bring the reminants of the cider barrel this weekend?

[beast66606]

Was a trap fitted to every goods exit? I'm sure I've seen a couple of photos of railways in the lakes that didn't have them, mainly terminous stations such as Lakeside or have I just missed it when looking at other parts of the photo?

 

Probably combined with a connection to a headshunt, so not a stand alone point .. so Yes, you probably missed them.

[Black Sheep]

ah, there will be a headshunt on my layout, however it's going to be quite short and occasionally have a brake van sat in it so some shunting movements will use a section of main line, so should there be a trap as well as the headshunt?

[Boris]

ah, there will be a headshunt on my layout, however it's going to be quite short and occasionally have a brake van sat in it so some shunting movements will use a section of main line, so should there be a trap as well as the headshunt?

Not really, if it is intended for use as a headshunt installing a trap point would defeat the object of the headshunt. If the headshunt is part of your yard, the yard entry/exit points will act as a trap, eg any unauthorised movement will end going into the yard sidings or into the headshunt. If all else fails tell everyone the gradient falls towards your headshunt!

 

I have uploaded a couple of photos anyway for referance, detail and general arrangement.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

ah, there will be a headshunt on my layout, however it's going to be quite short and occasionally have a brake van sat in it so some shunting movements will use a section of main line, so should there be a trap as well as the headshunt?

No.

 

The function of a trap point is to divert (or 'trap') any errant movement towards a passenger (usually, but not excusively) running line and a headshunt is doing exactly that. If you look at the signalbox diagram below you will see examples of both sidings serving as traps (the two at Staverton station) and another location where there is just a trap point (by Signal No.33 to the right of the signalbox symbol - where there is a vertical bar over the diagram) while at extreme right there's an example of both - a headshunt on the loop which incorporates a trap in the opposite direction to protect the loop from the headshunt.

 

[micknich2003]

The attached drawings may be of interest and show how the various lines may be "Trapped". The coloured diagram shows the original Hull & Barnsley arrangment and the hand drawn one the LNER version after the new box of 1924 and the additional junction was installed. The entire layout was and still is on an embankment, not that much now remains. Mick Nicholson.

[beast66606]

Interesting typo on the H&B diagram there Mick - "Home Sidings at South Junction"

[Rugd1022]

At some locations the catch points themselves are quite long, there are two sets going up the Lickey and they are very substantially built compared to the ones illustrated above. There's a similar, but slightly smaller set just north of Bedford station, protecting any units in the platforms as the line rises up towards Oakley.

 

[Edwin_m]

I presume the siding that seems to slope upwards away from the down (uphill) line at Dore and Totley is or was a mega-catch-point to derail anything that came rolling back down the Hope Valley.

[ozzyo]

I presume the siding that seems to slope upwards away from the down (uphill) line at Dore and Totley is or was a mega-catch-point to derail anything that came rolling back down the Hope Valley.

 

 

Hello Edwim_m,

 

if it's the one that I'm thinking about that ended up in a big sand drag yes. You would not want to put a catch point in a long tunnel (would you) better to let them run out of the tunnel and then try and stop them.

 

OzzyO.

[Black Sheep]

I've attached my track plan,

it has changed slightly, the set of points near the viaduct are now the other side of it to make a nice long running round in order for shunting in.

the headhunt, as I said previously, is quite short so the track entering the yard will be used for some shunting movements and possibly coming out onto the main, however as that's under control of a loco (being pulled) it shouldn't need a trap?

 

thanks

[The Stationmaster]

I've attached my track plan,

it has changed slightly, the set of points near the viaduct are now the other side of it to make a nice long running round in order for shunting in.

the headhunt, as I said previously, is quite short so the track entering the yard will be used for some shunting movements and possibly coming out onto the main, however as that's under control of a loco (being pulled) it shouldn't need a trap?

 

thanks

You have effectively provided a trap with that short bit of siding at the yard exit. The whole point of a trap is to deal with locos as well as wagons so having a loco present, or not, makes no difference - apart from things being much more likely to get derailed of course.

[micknich2003]

Interesting typo on the H&B diagram there Mick - "Home Sidings at South Junction"

Beast, thanks for your observation, as you know, I have the original c1904 diagram book, the above being a "Digi" image. I had not noticed this one before, but the book does have several similar errors, and all of course done by a human hand, no CAD in those days. Mick,

[Dave777]

Surprised to see a manual lever on Boris' photos, I had always assumed that it was controlled via a signal box since you wouldn't have someone standing permanently by the lever all the time, waiting for something to happen.

 

Should they all have one...? (I'm just about to glue my manual point levers in place and hadn't intended putting one on my trap point)