Lynton & Barnstaple OO9 Loco from Heljan

[Jeff Smith]

I don't think any manufacturer would deliberately release a faulty product to see what reaction they got

This is an assembly fault or material fault as there's nothing wrong with the design as far as I can see. The only change I would make is a metal motion bracket but I have plenty of locos with plastic ones that are fine after years.

Neither of those would necessarily show up in standard factory quality tests as they have happened after a varying amount of time. In the factory they probably ran them round a circuit twice so not quite enough to work whatever loose

 

It is bold to say there appears to be nothing wrong with the design - everything may appear to be in place but there may be clearance tolerances that are too wide, hence some fail some don't, or the motion retention method may not be consistently achieved due to assembly errors or even the design of the retention method.  Looking for design errors is not necessarily easy to assess visually.

 

I believe your last statement is close to the truth though - once a product is 'cleared' for full production I imagine a simple functional test, ie running round a test track a couple of times is probably all that is done to each one prior to boxing up.

[PaulRhB]

It's not that bold on the design when there's nothing ground breaking in it. I've seen consistently far sloppier tolerances on old Farish and Minitrix valve gear that flopped around far more. Material choice is more likely to be an Achilles heel of the design itself as some of the chassis plastic does seem a little soft. I can't find any flex in the parts supporting the motion though on Tims one that really mangled it's motion. My first suspicion on the failure of his main crank was maybe that is soft plastic rather than delrin but it seems pretty hard so without knowing what it is I can't comment further on the choice, it could just have been a defect in the moulding as it filled making a weak point at the hole because the mould or plastic were too cool. Steve's two appear from the pics to be rivet failures but i can't see if it's the rivet material breaking or insufficient 'crimping'.

From all that it looks more like assembly to me but as it's based on a few photos of Steve's and just two models in hand it's hard to be certain. I checked mine over looking for both faults and all seems tight and square.

[bertiedog]

it may only be a rumour, but from other forums postings they are saying Peco have returned a large batch to Heljan, and Heljan have stopped supply till the whole of the stock with them is checked over. Heljan are also closed for holidays so a further wait till the work is done. So the sold ones are the only ones around at present, and the release is put farther back again. I wonder if it will be around before the Swanley show.

 

Stephen

[PaulRhB]

The Peco comment is a strange rumour considering I talked to CM Editor Andrew Burnham last week who was involved in encouraging the project and he knew of no major problem in returns to Peco but had heard about the quality control issues on the forums.

The two magazines operate in a different part of the building but it would have to be very secret squirrel to avoid them knowing.

Edited July 25, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Crackers]

Crikey - if I may put forth my pair of pennies, this all does seem rather alarming! Having designed a 009 layout (not yet built nor parts purchased) that I am quite proud of, reading through this thread has very nearly put me off! I had been hoping to use the Heljan locos and Peco stock to put together "yet another confounded fictional branch terminus" layout as the small gauge allows me to get more out of the little space I have. Fingers crossed, that Heljan do indeed succeed in ironing out the issues before the next batch is produced (if, that is, I've understood the musings of this thread correctly), otherwise I don't think I'll be parting with my precious Pounds - many of them, for these locos    .

 

Back to my original plan for a terrible OO layout it may well be. Shoot.

[Stevelewis]

For  info   I learned  of  another  valve  gear  failure  over  the  weekend,  an EXE  which  was  an  early  purchase  but  itself  a  replacement  for  the original purchase made  as  that   loco  was  found to be  'wobbly'  when  it  ran so  was  replaced.

 

The  replacement  loco ran  fine  when   the  pony  pickups had  been  removed  and  coupling  height  adjusted  and    was  in   almost  daily   use  for   over  5  weeks so  it  had  quite  a lot  of  running   time on  a  continuous run layout,  but  last week  it  suddenly  juddered  and  stopped  as  the  valve gear on one  side  came  apart, at  the  same  time bending  the  slide  bar and  jamming  up.......  So  that  one  is  going  back.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Stevelewis

[bertiedog]

The troubles that Heljan have with the valve gear, and frankly they seem trivial and easy to cure, pale into insignificance against the total lack of supplies except to those who seem to have been picked by luck to have received the product.

The supply situation is unknown, Heljan just go not answer queries, and it looks like the next batch will jump over the initial liveries, and leave customers without the goods unless a repeat run is done in a years time.

It is messy, disorganised and a the situation is leading to total disillusionment with Heljan. I am leaving them on order, but may cancel all of them if something is not done soon to get the supplies underway.

Where are the locos at the moment?

Heljan should have tested the Locos long before the first was delivered, and obviously still have issues to solve, like public relations, apart from solving the valve gear support problem.

Yet again we are dependant on the Chinese to make the items, pity the designs sent to them as so poorly thought out and poorly tested. This hobby is slowly performing a death throw at the moment, it is going to suddenly hit, with a collapse unless the suppliers in the UK remember the customer comes first, they pay the bills, they expect service, deliveries on time, and for items to be available to all that want to purchase them.

[Stevelewis]

Bertiedog  as  you  apparently  not  yet  received  a  MW  I cannot   understanfd  how  you  can  state  that  the  valve  gear  issue  is  'trivial'  and 'easy  to  cure'  In  my opinion  it  is  not  easy  to  cure, it may  require  a  re-design  to   improve  its  fragility.

[olivegreen]

I have yet to see one of these models - I have one on order, of course - but having read the rather less sensational of the comments above I would agree with Stevelewis (and others) that a redesign seems in order on several points.

If that is indeed what Heljan is aiming at, it is pointless raging on about lack of deliveries and so on. Lack of information is another thing but, as has been said elsewhere, if Heljan, like many European companies, is taking block summer holidays we shouldn't expect any news until into September.

Let's enjoy the sun while it lasts: modelling is for the shorter days (well, for me, anyway!).

[bertiedog]

I have seen the loco and the problem, it simply should never have happened in a company that designs model locos, it has happened and Heljan must bear the responsibility and put it right at once, holidays or not.

 

I am getting fed up reading that in some way we should be grateful to makers for supplying the goods. Some of us will be long dead before things are delivered in this current business mode that the trade has quietly slipped into. If it was a maker in Europe who was doing the corrections it would already be in place and deliveries resumed, well Heljan and the others have blessed themselves with Chinese production, and this is the nightmare that can happen. With batch production the problem takes months to sort out.

 

I for one will leave the locos on order, but cancel as I feel like it, I owe nothing to Heljan and they seem to treat people with no service in mind. This is the sixth product I have ordered over the past two years where the delays and lack of delivery have affected what should be a nice pastime in retirement, well I cannot wait as long as many feel they can, and will move on to another project in the meantime.

I do not want to cancel as it affects the shop supplying the locos in the UK, and that's a separate matter, as these sort of problems do not help a struggling model trade at all.

 

By the way, the one I checked over took about an hour to cure, new pins in the pivots, and two spacer washers, that's all, and that included working out what was wrong. Pity the youngster on a computer design system did not spot it! or have the experience not to check the design before committing it to manufacture.

 

Stephen

[Nearlymen]

I posted a message to Heljan on their facebook page (community section) which was replied to today. This says that the outstanding locos in the first delivery have now arrived with them and are undergoing testing. Whether or not this means they have been or are undergoing modification I know not but thats the latest news ! I also emailed Hattons who were not sure what the current situation was !

 

You'll have to log into Facebook and then navigate to the Heljan page to read the community comments.

 

Cheers

 

Clive

Edited August 7, 2017 by Nearlymen

[loco]

 My first venture into Narrow gauge went really well, Initially very pleased. It ran perfectly on a new 3 metre length of track for several days. Using a Bachmann/zimo decoder. And stunning to look at.

 

I then purchased 3 pairs of Peco large radius electrofrog points,  Coaches and wagons. It was my turn, the troubles began.  Derailing, and shorting on the points, nearly every time. Rear bogies jumping off, In addition the loco started stopping when going slowly, needing a gentle push till it gained momentum. All very frustrating.

 

Tried putting up with it, but after a few days, it was returned to a very sympathetic  dealer.

After these disappointments  i will not be replacing until I'm satisfied the obvious problems have been resolved, and future models will run normally, as is to be expected for  a not cheap RTR loco.

[bertiedog]

Ohh well I have to log on to Facebook to find out what Heljan is doing,...explains a lot about what they do far to much and use Facebook rather than cure the problems. As Ii expect others here do use Facebook I must point out any such use is up to them, but not a suitable medium to contact customers on.

 

What worries me is this second batch, what livery is it, as it could just be the next promised , which leaves orders for the first livery up in the air without any information.

 

Are we going to be subjected to the Hornby Peckett situation, where they are never gong to repeat the first batches again?.

 

Well I am putting away the layout, into sore, I have just about had enough of the delays and faults. The L&B stock can run with the Bachmann WW1 items when they come later this year. Woody Bay is no more......unless the stuff turns up very soon indeed........

 

My sympathy also goes to Peco and their range, in the end it will sell, but it must be dreadfully worrying for them at the moment..

 

Stephen

Edited August 7, 2017 by bertiedog

[Stevelewis]

 My first venture into Narrow gauge went really well, Initially very pleased. It ran perfectly on a new 3 metre length of track for several days. Using a Bachmann/zimo decoder. And stunning to look at.

 

I then purchased 3 pairs of Peco large radius electrofrog points,  Coaches and wagons. It was my turn, the troubles began.  Derailing, and shorting on the points, nearly every time. Rear bogies jumping off, In addition the loco started stopping when going slowly, needing a gentle push till it gained momentum. All very frustrating.

 

Tried putting up with it, but after a few days, it was returned to a very sympathetic  dealer.

After these disappointments  i will not be replacing until I'm satisfied the obvious problems have been resolved, and future models will run normally, as is to be expected for  a not cheap RTR loco.

 

Interesting  re  the  gentle  push!,,  I  had  the  same  problem  with  both  mine  before  their  valve  gear  failures,    similar  faults  occurred  when   running  on  analogue  supply  and  I briefly fitted  a   Gaugemaster DCC28 to Yeo  and   it  did    do  exactly  the same thing,   I began to  wonder  if  this   had  something   to  do  with  the  coreless motor.  I would  point  out  the  stalling   had  nothing  to  do  with  the  track  as  other  locos  ( Roco  & Liliput  perform  fine  without  problems)

 

Some  time  ago  I  bought  a  Haskins    AUS Puffing   Billy  for  the  0n30  layout   which  had  a  coreless motor  which    had  similar  performance  problems  ie  stalling  for  no   particular  reason  and  needing   assistance  to  re start.

[Stevelewis]

.

 

By the way, the one I checked over took about an hour to cure, new pins in the pivots, and two spacer washers, that's all, and that included working out what was wrong. Pity the youngster on a computer design system did not spot it! or have the experience not to check the design before committing it to manufacture.

 

Stephen

 

Someone  must  have  very good  eyesight  then  to  be  able  to  carry  out  such  a  repair,  perhaps  you  should  offer  your  services  to  other  disappointed  owners  who  still have  their  locos?  ( At  a  modest   charge  of  course)

[bertiedog]

It is not eyesight that limits such a repair in a factory, a jig is made to drill out the holes and fit new pins, no particular skill by the operator is involved. I corrected the one loco I have examined, with new pivots and spacers to stop the rods touching the slidebar arrangement. Heljan put far to much sideplay on the valve gear parts, they can catch the bars, and the pivot mount comes adrift.

 

The pickups are just a matter of reassembly as made, plus a tweak to relive excess pressure downwards. An improvement is brass bearings, full width in each bogie, to stop the wheel crabbing on points, going out of a true radial path through the points. Also a flat spring can be added to bear down on the bogie, but adjustment is not easy.

 

I cannot get involved with repairs in general due to pretty bad arthritis, and being house bound due to this problem.

 

My point is Heljan's designers should be more professional in approach and spotted these problems years ago, before any production was scheduled.  In the main the design works, and blaming coreless motors for problems is just plain wrong. Coreless motors respond in the same way as any motor to starting, it is the DCC unit that is not matched properly that is the cause in most cases. Coreless types start moving sooner than ordinary motors, on a lower voltage because they are efficient. The troubles come with DC units that do not start at ZERO volts and use regulators that start delivery at about 1.2 volts, causing odd lurching starts or on some circuits design a stall. The issue is similar on DCC, most chips were not meant to run at such low currents and voltages being fed to the motor. Adjusting things to match can help, but also hinder causing a stall till the signal gets bigger, and the loco moves away suddenly.

Intrinsically the coreless motor is far superior to a conventional type, lower current, lower heat, less losses, and usually quieter.

 

The problems should be easy to cure if the Factory was in Europe, and the designers worked in the same plant, overseeing all the parts production and assembly on a day to day basis, but with China it is half the world away, and I doubt any Heljan staff are in residence with the Chinese.

 

It is not the Chinese Factories at fault, it is the designers fault for not knowing how to arrange the parts. The Locos had an odd valve gear, Joys , which is near impossible to portray in 009, but Heljans efforts at trying have just messed up the design.

 

If such problems turn up on a model that is in delivery, frankly holidays would simply be cancelled till it was put right, at least for the design staff and management. I'll bet the Chinese workers do not get any choice about holidays, obviously Heljan's priorities are very different.

 

Anyway off to other climes for the time being, and another layout, it is so sad that the locos are such a problem, I hope they do get it sorted out, but next time an embargo till the crates are in the shops please!

 

Stephen

[JSpencer]

It is n

If such problems turn up on a model that is in delivery, frankly holidays would simply be cancelled till it was put right, at least for the design staff and management. I'll bet the Chinese workers do not get any choice about holidays, obviously Heljan's priorities are very different.

 

In China holiday arrangements are different and most focused around the new which today runs from before Christmas to after THEIR new year. And you cannot do anything about it. I don,t know about summer but we do know their workers can and do change factories regularly. Saying "holiday is cancelled" to them will probably leave you with no work force to boot!

 

Likewise can you imagine cancelling holidays in the west in this day and age? Especially for a model train? Seeing how the forums erupt with complaints on many a release these days, no model train designer would ever go on holiday again.

 

Now seeing how quickly the next batch is due leads me to think that there maybe was no time to improve it. If they have then congratulations will be in order.

Initially my 009 addition to my current layout was going to be a line with a gradient to a station that has a passing loop. The other end with a full roundy loop. 12 inch radius minimum and 3 points plus a 4 inch rise over 6 feet.

Having read here, I have instead decided to do one big loop with 10 yards of track (some 80% hidden behind the back scenes of the main OO layout) all level, no points and 18 inch radius minimum curves.

Edited August 8, 2017 by JSpencer

[Stevelewis]

Have  to  agree  with  JSpencer if  more  locos  are released  for  sale  I think it will be  unlikely  that  enough  time  has  elapsed to carry out modifications, some  retailers  have still to  send  back  some  returned  faulty locos ( due to Heljan hols) so these  will not  have been examined by  the manufacturer yet.

 

Re   JSpencer's  proposed 009 layout,  for  info,  when  my  first  loco's valve  gear  failed  I  had  carried  out the  fixes on  pony trucks & couplings,  so the  loco was  running  well  on a largish layout  with  minimum  radius 12" curves  and several Peco 18" points   in  the   circuit,  the  track plan being  a  looped  8 configuration with  gradients  of approx.  1 in 20 to 25.

The  loco  performed  fine  without  any  problems  whatsoever,  I was  almost  going  to keep it  even  with  the  broken  valve  gear ( as  Piston & Con rods still OK)  but  then  the  2nd  locos  valve  gear failed,  so  I   got  annoyed  and  returned  them  both.

 

A plus  point by  removing  the  springy brass  pony pickups  was  that  the  haulage  capacity  was  increased   as  the  majority of the  locos  138gm  weight  was on  the  6 driving  wheels, 6 Peco  coaches  could be  hauled  up  the inclines, whereas  when  the   brass pickups were still in  place  the limit  was 4 coaches ( FYI  the  coaches  have additional internal ballast fitted  to  improve  their   trackholding  and  rollability)

[Nearlymen]

Blimey ! Anyone would think it's difficult to log onto a manufacturers facebook forum and ask a question !! LOL !

 

There you go !

 

 

Clive Roper to Heljan A/S‎

So July has been and gone now, what is the latest delivery date and information regarding the first outstanding batch of the Lynton and Barnstaple OO9 Locos. An update would be appreciated.

 

Heljan A/S to Clive Roper

 We have just received the second batch (shipment) amd are testing as we speak

 

Clive Roper to Heljan A/S

 Have these models been changed/improved from the initial batch released ? I.e. have the pony truck riding problems over Peco points and the valve gear breakages that have been reported on model forums been rectified ?

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Nearlymen

[bertiedog]

Some people do not go on social chat forums like Facebook, if Heljan want they can answer by email. It just shows that Heljan like to waste time chatting or such rather than delivering the goods ordered!

Stephen

[Stevelewis]

 

Blimey ! Anyone would think it's difficult to log onto a manufacturers facebook forum and ask a question !! LOL !

 

There you go !

 

 

Clive Roper to Heljan A/S‎

So July has been and gone now, what is the latest delivery date and information regarding the first outstanding batch of the Lynton and Barnstaple OO9 Locos. An update would be appreciated.

 

Heljan A/S to Clive Roper

 We have just received the second batch (shipment) amd are testing as we speak

 

Clive Roper to Heljan A/S

 Have these models been changed/improved from the initial batch released ? I.e. have the pony truck riding problems over Peco points and the valve gear breakages that have been reported on model forums been rectified ?

 

 

 

 

 

The  only  comment  I  would  make  on  Heljan's  reply  that  they  are  'testing' is  that,  my  failures ( Valve gear)  occurred  at  around 3 hours for Loco  no 1  and  in excess  of  15 hrs  for  Loco   no 2 .

 

Also  the  pony  truck  problems   were not  confined  to  points,  derailment  also occurred  when  curves  had  been traversed  and  the pony  was prevented to 'swing' correctly  due  to  pick up pressure.  once  the  brass pickups were disabled  this  problem was  eliminated  and  the locos  ran just  as  well if not better ( more  traction on the  driving  wheels)

[Nearlymen]

OK I get it, people prefer to moan than try to get answers. Don't worry I won't make that mistake again on this Forum. Cheerio

[Jeff Smith]

Have people who returned faulty locos received replacements in exchange? Is there a danger that the pick-up etc modifications invalidate any warranty?

[Stevelewis]

Have people who returned faulty locos received replacements in exchange? Is there a danger that the pick-up etc modifications invalidate any warranty?

 

I returned  my  2  no  problem  received  full refund  ( now  reinvested in  some  Fleischmann  N  Gauge  locos)  I did not  want  replacements  at  this  stage   the 009 project  is  now  on  hold  pending  definite  confirmation  that  the locos faults  have been  addressed.

 

  No  problems  with  the  pickups  as the  brass pickup  pieces   were  simply initially  carefully  bent  with  fine  nosed  pliers out of  position,  on returning  they  were  simply  bent  back.  The  retailer  was  totally  aware,  in  fact  he  told  me  the other  day  he  had  reduced  his  order  for  the  Next  delivery of  locos

Edited August 8, 2017 by Stevelewis

[swsjames]

Very amused to see the Heljan advert in the latest Railway Modeller. It shows Yeo ("sold out") with its rear pony truck derailed. Disarmingly honest, I thought.

 

- Ian.