Derailment in Bretigny-sur-Orge

[Talltim]

http://www.leparisien.fr/essonne-91/un-train-deraille-a-bretigny-12-07-2013-2977769.php

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23294630

 

Looks nasty

 

[Talltim]

From the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10176769/Train-crash-near-Paris-many-casualties.html

[MJI]

Would buckeyes have helped?

[SNCF stephen]

Very sad. I have taken that train a number of times and can vouch for the fact it does get up to speed very quickly. From what the BBC have said it appears that the train uncoupled and then derailed. It will be interesting to hear the facts as they emerge. 

[darrel]

BBC talk rubbish "was it one of those super duper tgv's?" Was one question I heard asked earlier reply from the bloke that was there and could see it "I don't know" Most likely the coaches derailed first and that caused the couplings to split.

 

[Edwin_m]

The BBC report linked above has now been edited to include mention of recent work on points in the area.  A derailment on facing points north of the station certainly has potential to produce results like this - think Potters Bar - though there are other possible causes for a facing point derailment besides track defects. 

[Oldddudders]

I see that they are now saying it was not human error. To my mind, as a retired railwayman, it matters not whether the driver went too fast, or the points moved under the train - unless it was an earthquake, someone, somewhere was responsible for making sure what happened couldn't happen. Suggestions that the train ended up on the suburban side of the station sound like a fault with the signalling interlocking - designed by humans.

[Oldddudders]

On the Early Risers thread, Coombe Barton has noted this update http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23298374

 

If a track-fault occurs - when was it last inspected?

[Fat Controller]

Reading the various French news sites last night (it was a very quiet shift), it seems that there had been a partial renewal of the points in the area of the derailment within the last month, following the discovery of about 20 defective crossing timbers. SNCF had apparently made an internal video, saying how a defect had been discovered in May, and that had been decided to carry out the works at short notice, as opposed to the 12-18 months planning such a renewal would normally take.

This is from an SNCF press release this morning:-

"Cette éclisse", sorte d'agrafe en acier qui relie deux rails dans un aiguillage, "s'est désolidarisée, elle s'est détachée, elle est sortie de son logement", a préciséPierre Izard, directeur général des infrastructures après les premiers constats de la nuit de la compagnie.

I'm used to 'éclisse' meaning a clamp and fishplate used to effect a temporary repair; in this case, it seems to have been used to describe a stretcher bar. 

[Oldddudders]

On that basis, Brian, there may be parallels with Potters Bar, where the 12 45 Cambridge Cruiser came to grief when a stretcher bar was unable to do its job - and 7 people died.

[Fat Controller]

On that basis, Brian, there may be parallels with Potters Bar, where the 12 45 Cambridge Cruiser came to grief when a stretcher bar was unable to do its job - and 7 people died.

The other parallel with Potter's Bar would seem to be SNCF ordering nationwide inspections of about 2000 similar sets of points, in case any might have a potential problem with the component in question.. What is very strange is that I've hardly seen any reference to RFF in any of the reports; everything is coming from SNCF.

[The Stationmaster]

On the Early Risers thread, Coombe Barton has noted this update http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23298374

 

If a track-fault occurs - when was it last inspected?

Very much like 'shades of Potters Bar/Grayrigg' perhaps, with a detached stretcher bar - which would account for the way various vehicles finished up.  And you have of course asked precisely the relevant question although I might add 'and where was the recent work on the track carried out in that area?"

[The Stationmaster]

The other parallel with Potter's Bar would seem to be SNCF ordering nationwide inspections of about 2000 similar sets of points, in case any might have a potential problem with the component in question.. What is very strange is that I've hardly seen any reference to RFF in any of the reports; everything is coming from SNCF.

Possibly because they're having difficulty accepting in their minds that RFF really is a different organsation - but I bet it soon will be if there's managerial or work quality element to any conclusions about the cause.

[eastwestdivide]

Reading the various French news sites last night (it was a very quiet shift), it seems that there had been a partial renewal of the points in the area of the derailment within the last month, following the discovery of about 20 defective crossing timbers. SNCF had apparently made an internal video, saying how a defect had been discovered in May, and that had been decided to carry out the works at short notice, as opposed to the 12-18 months planning such a renewal would normally take.

This is from an SNCF press release this morning:-

"Cette éclisse", sorte d'agrafe en acier qui relie deux rails dans un aiguillage, "s'est désolidarisée, elle s'est détachée, elle est sortie de son logement", a préciséPierre Izard, directeur général des infrastructures après les premiers constats de la nuit de la compagnie.

I'm used to 'éclisse' meaning a clamp and fishplate used to effect a temporary repair; in this case, it seems to have been used to describe a stretcher bar. 

 

Are we sure if it is a stretcher bar? Most of the relevant pics from a search for "éclisse" give fishplates or general pics of trackwork, and the Larousse definition (http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais-anglais/éclisse/27433) is a fishplate (or a splint in medical usage). Also, Izard's use of "sorte d'agrafe" = "sort of staple/clip" might be a better layman's definition of fishplate than of stretcher bar. (I've not seen the rest of the press release).

No doubt we'll find out in due course.

[The Stationmaster]

Are we sure if it is a stretcher bar? Most of the relevant pics from a search for "éclisse" give fishplates or general pics of trackwork, and the Larousse definition (http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais-anglais/éclisse/27433) is a fishplate (or a splint in medical usage). Also, Izard's use of "sorte d'agrafe" = "sort of staple/clip" might be a better layman's definition of fishplate than of stretcher bar. (I've not seen the rest of the press release).

No doubt we'll find out in due course.

According to the UIC dictionary the French for stretcher bar is 'tringle d'ecartement des lames d-aiguile', a facing point lock translates as 'verrou d'aiguille', 'eclisse' is a fishplate but the same term also describes a splice in a rail or bar.

[Pway]

@Pway

 

 

Check out 'calage a agrafe' - this is a form of facing point lock found on the Continent, this could be what is being referred to.

[eastwestdivide]

If ever a picture was worth a thousand words...

[Fat Controller]

Some more from French news sites:-

"L'éclisse qui s'est détachée «est venue se loger au centre de l'aiguillage et à cet endroit elle a empêché le passage normal des roues du train et elle aurait provoqué le déraillement du train», a-t-il précisé." 

The 'fishplate' which had become detached, jammed itself at the centre of the points, and at this location prevented the wheels following their normal path, which would have caused the derailment"

from the same statement by Pierre Izard. The text has an adjacent photo of a blue-painted fishplate- perhaps someone on here with p-way experience can say if this is a particular type, as SNCF say they've got to inspect 5000 similar ones throughout the network.

Here's the link to the article:-

http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/drame-de-bretigny-la-sncf-va-controler-les-5-000-eclisses-de-son-reseau-13-07-2013-2980207.php

[Derekl]

Olddudders - I shared you reservation about "human error" when I heard that report, but concluded that they meant no error by operational staff - ie. driver or signalling error. I note that the driver was praised for his rapid reaction, presumably hitting an "all trains stop" button (or similar) that prevented an oncoming northbound train running into the wreckage.

 

The actual cause seems a bit speculative at present - BBC were reporting a broken/defective fish-plate (described as "holding the rails together"), so presumably what you might think. I have a recollection of one of the south London accidents (possibly Hither Green) being caused by a part of a broken fish-plate lodging somewhere that resulted in third or fourth carriage derailing sideways in much the same way as in this instance.

[Derekl]

Have just had a look at the Hither Green report here: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=99

 

Click the Adobe logo in the masthead to see the full report.

 

Not quite the same, not least because this was caused by fatigue fractures which presumably would not be a problem in the SNCF case.

[The Stationmaster]

Some more from French news sites:-

"L'éclisse qui s'est détachée «est venue se loger au centre de l'aiguillage et à cet endroit elle a empêché le passage normal des roues du train et elle aurait provoqué le déraillement du train», a-t-il précisé." 

The 'fishplate' which had become detached, jammed itself at the centre of the points, and at this location prevented the wheels following their normal path, which would have caused the derailment"

from the same statement by Pierre Izard. The text has an adjacent photo of a blue-painted fishplate- perhaps someone on here with p-way experience can say if this is a particular type, as SNCF say they've got to inspect 5000 similar ones throughout the network.

Here's the link to the article:-

http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/drame-de-bretigny-la-sncf-va-controler-les-5-000-eclisses-de-son-reseau-13-07-2013-2980207.php

The 'blue' one in that article looks to me like a glued joint (although I don't know if SNCF use them) and it is clearly not adjacent to pointwork.

[D1056WesternSultan]

I can't believe that 'high speed' trains are permitted to run on track with wooden sleepers and fishplated joints?  I always thought that cwr and concrete sleepers were the requirement,

[The Stationmaster]

I can't believe that 'high speed' trains are permitted to run on track with wooden sleepers and fishplated joints?  I always thought that cwr and concrete sleepers were the requirement,

The train involved was an ordinary loco-hauled train formed with Corail stock - whether or not you call that 'high speed' depends on how you define the term.  Similarly TGV sets (which fit just about any definition of 'high speed train') do run on track with wooden sleepers etc but not at LGV speeds of course (the LGVs wherte teh really fast running takes place have concrete sleepers and deep ballast).

[woodenhead]

Bit sickened to read that looters may have been searching amongst the deceased who had yet to be freed from the wreckage.

[Fat Controller]

The 'blue' one in that article looks to me like a glued joint (although I don't know if SNCF use them) and it is clearly not adjacent to pointwork.

I did have a suspicion it was a library shot.

They brought in a big road crane from Belgium and lifted the coaches over the last day; fortunately, no more casualties were found.

There are mutterings again about the 'maintenance deficit' on all but LGVs- there was a very critical report (commissioned by the French government) from Lausanne University fairly recently, pointing out that some lines might have to be closed to rail traffic, due to their condition.