LBSC/Southern E2 livery

[Smiffy2]

Some advice needed.

 

I've scored a Hornby E2 in Southern olive green, numbered B104 from ebay for twenty notes, which I'm sort-of pleased about.

 

I'm planning to detail and repaint it - it looks so toy-like at the moment. At the very least weather it senseless.

 

My concern is what number and livery such a loco would have worn c1930. Pictures look as though the locos were definitely unlined and probably unlined black. When were the numbers changed?

 

Apologies for probably-simple questions, but I've yet to build up a reference library.

[Richard Lee]

In 1930 the number would have been in the format "B", then, probably, a 3 or 2 digit number.  The "B" would be tiny compared with the size of the numbers.  "B" stands for 'Brighton', and denoting that it was a former London, Brighton and South Coast Railway locomotive.

 

A couple of years later, the SR renumbered their locomotives, dropping the inial 'A', 'B' or 'E's, and putting a '2' in front of the former LBSC locomotives, or '1's in front of the former SECR locomotvies' numbers (these would have had 'A's).  Some people like to choose 1933 as the year their SR layout represents, because it is likely that there would have been locomotives numbered in both styles.

 

There are some pictures on the SEMG website.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/e2_class.html

 

From the top picture, it appears as if they were painted Maunsell (olive) green.  Notice the tiny 'B' between the "SOUTHERN" and "107".

[petethemole]

The livery it comes in is correct for 1930. The only problem is the white lining, which is way too thick. The boiler lining should be black/white/black.

 

Pete

[phil-b259]

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/e2_class.html

 

From the top picture, it appears as if they were painted Maunsell (olive) green.  Notice the tiny 'B' between the "SOUTHERN" and "107".

 

I'm not so sure

 

While there does seem to be possibly some sort of lining, it certainly doesn't look like the white lining passenger engines got. Thus its more likely that the top picture of B107 is actually Maunsell's freight livery of black lined out with a solitary thin green line. Said green lining was dispensed with during the mid 30s so engines like the Q class never had it .

 

Its also worth noting that the SEMG site says they were deigned and used for light goods and shunting work - and that when trailed on passenger workings by the LBSCR it wasn't a success. Both factors support the suggestion the pictured loco is in black not Olive

[Smiffy2]

Thanks, both.

 

Richard - the SEMG site was my starting point, but the livery of the loco isn't very clear, even though it's reasonably clean. Some sources seem to say that renumbering began in 1928, others 1931. Are these the start and finish points?

 

Pete - in your opinion would weathering calm things down enough to look reasonably authentic, or does it need a respray and new lining?

 

Weren't some locos unlined black at that stage?

 

>edit< just seen Phil's post. Thanks, Phil, that does look likely.

 

Next question - can it be DCC'd?

[petethemole]

I think Phil is right about the goods livery; these weren't passenger locos. The LBSCR tried two on push-pull trains but the coal capacity was too small.

 

Pete

[pete_mcfarlane]

The problem I find with photos of locos in the Southern lined black livery is that it's hard to make out the lining. I guess this is down to the film emulsion not registering the green properly. But if it has a B prefix to it's number, then it will definitely be lined out. 

[Smiffy2]

Does anyone make waterslide green lining/boiler bands to anyone's knowledge?

[Richard Lee]

I'm not so sure

 

While there does seem to be possibly some sort of lining, it certainly doesn't look like the white lining passenger engines got. Thus its more likely that the top picture of B107 is actually Maunsell's freight livery of black lined out with a solitary thin green line. Said green lining was dispensed with during the mid 30s so engines like the Q class never had it .

 

Its also worth noting that the SEMG site says they were deigned and used for light goods and shunting work - and that when trailed on passenger workings by the LBSCR it wasn't a success. Both factors support the suggestion the pictured loco is in black not Olive

You may be right.  As far as I am aware, E2s were used mainly for freight and shunting, so that I would expect them them to be black.  However, the grey tone of the tank, and most of the locomotive in the photograph, seemed to me to be quite distinct from the smoke box.  It could be that I have misinterpreted the black and white photograph.

 

If I have mislead anyone, then I do apologise.

[Smiffy2]

No need to apologise!

I've extracted the photo and enlarged it, and it does seem that there's a dark lining very close to the edges of the panels - quite fine. So I think the black scheme looks most likely.

It begs the question, of course, as to why Hornby made it in this scheme. Apart from the obvious answer...

[petethemole]

The smokebox, chimney and dome are shinier than the rest of the loco, possibly due to differential cleaning removing the layer of grime that makes the rest of the loco seem lighter. The lining on the tanks is just visible but there is no difference in tone between the paint either side of the line; which would probably show if one side was black.

 

Pete

[Smiffy2]

So I'm going for something like this. Plain black (actually two-tone, with a difference between the smokebox and the rest) and green lining from HMRS, pressfix (which I'm not looking forward to).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-R157-SOUTHERN-GREEN-CLASS-E2-0-6-0-TANK-LOCO-103-/190563885161

[Smiffy2]

I know this isn't the right place, but I wanted to keep all this together, so apologies. And apologies for more basic questions.

 

The Hornby E2 has arrived (in a Petit Filous box) and it looks pretty clean, albeit quite obviously from a Smoking Home...

 

Question - I've got a later Hornby Jinty 0-6-0 R052-010 which is DCC fitted and has the sprung rear axle/traction tyres which runs a lot better. Can I (as I imply from another thread) swap the chassis over?

 

If so, is it a straight or a modified swap, and how do I dismantle the locos? There doesn't seem to be a 1:1 correspondence with the screws which seem to hold the body on.

[N15class]

The livery it comes in is correct for 1930. The only problem is the white lining, which is way too thick. The boiler lining should be black/white/black.

 

Pete

On the green loco the boiler bands are white black white.

 

On the black locos lined green I think from looking at loads of photos the green lining  was in all the same places as the passenger lining. It also started live as a darker green, but was quickly changed to emarald green. As for transfers I have some green ones that were made by HMRS.

[John M Upton]

The current production Jinty/Thomas/old08 etc 0-6-0 SSSP chassis is a simple swap over for the old X04 motor lump thar the E2's were supplied with. Rechassised a couple of resprayed BR black E2 shells myself like that.

[Smiffy2]

Took the plunge and did it yesterday. Makes a big difference - did you shorten the springs? I can't make my mind up!

 

I'm presuming that the olive green livery isn't pure fiction, as it does look nice, but I've not found any definite sources.

[Oldddudders]

I thought I ought to look in Bradley:

 

At Grouping, he says "Most were painted black, but a few in 1922-3 received the passenger umber before the Southern Railway applied its lined-black goods livery".

 

Later "During the economic crisis of the 1930s the lining was omitted from the livery of goods engines, but apart from this there were no changes until December 1939, when No 2100 left Eastleigh Works with Bulleid lettering and the numerals on the bunker sides. No 2109 received similar treatment in February 1940, while by the end of the year only Nos 2101/5/7 were running in the Maunsell livery".

 

Later again "No 2101 had the distinction of retaining its October 1939 Maunsell-style black livery and large tank-side numerals until taken into Eastleigh Works in May 1951."

[Smiffy2]

So, unlined or green-lined plain black. Sounds doable.

After extensive research (aka 5 minutes Google) I can't see if they carried their running numbers on the bunker back. Anyone know?

[Oldddudders]

So, unlined or green-lined plain black. Sounds doable.

After extensive research (aka 5 minutes Google) I can't see if they carried their running numbers on the bunker back. Anyone know?

Cue the HMRS Livery Register. Post 1931 there seem to have been numbers quite high on the bunker back. O2 #192 is shown thus, circa 1935.

 

[smiffy : You will enjoy the fact that both Cooper and Lola have been sitting on my lap purring during this research!]

[Smiffy2]

Indeed I do, very much so.

[steves17]

I'm trying to work out what livery the E2s originally carried, especially the extended batch. Bradley's 'Locomotives of the LB&SC part 3' gives me the impression that they were all painted in the Goods gloss black livery, until 103 & 104 were trailed as push-pulls in 1914. However this Works Grey photo, taken in June 1913

and Hornby's model of No100 suggests to me they were all initially painted in the Umber livery. 

I presume the livery on the old model would of been two tone if it was painted instead of using the cheaper coloured plastic option but I believe the black roof decision was erroneous, as I think it should be white like on this Bachmann model of the E4, 

but as I've not been able to find anymore pre-Southern pics of the first batch I am not certain. Bradley's 'Locomotives of the LB&SC part 3 mentions that some of the engines received Passenger Umber in 1922-33 as well, but I don't find the way it is written to be very clear.

Extended batch engines I do believe were always in the Goods Black livery-these are the pics I have.

 

June 1915.

 

I don't currently have a date for this one but i'm pretty sure it was taken at the same time as the above.

 

Around 1923.

Hard to see but LBSC can partially be made out on the tank.

 

17th of May, 1924 - Battersea.

 

1928 - Battersea

 

1928 - Battersea 

 

The later, early Southern examples appear to be unlined ( unless its just a build up of dirt obscuring things ) but the LB&SC era pis appear to only show a single lining band on the tanks. The quality of those photos is poor though and according to Wikia the goods livery should have two thin red lines, much like on this model.

Can anyone confirm that the latter is accurate, including the exposed brass on the safety valve cover? 

 

Thanks Steve

[PenrithBeacon]

Only have a passing interest in the LBSCR but I thought these engines would be in goods green and then SR lined black.

 

Regards

[steves17]

I was under the impression that Goods Green had already been phased out when the E2s were built between 1913-6.

 

http://www.lbscr.org/livery/index.html#Locos1911

 

I'm going with the Gloss Black livery because of what Bradley mentions in 'Locomotives of the LB&SC part 3' and the extended tank batch photos do not show much of a difference between the smokebox vs the rest of the engine above the running plate but still the works grey pics of 100 give me pause. This link also mentions the tit bit about 103 and 104 being repainted for their passenger experiment,

 

http://www.railuk.info/steam/getsteamclass.php?item=E2

 

so I am inclined to say that the large scale model is accurate, except for the safety valve area being left unpainted and the LBSC lettering not being shaded.

 

If anyone has any more LBSC livery pics of the E2s I would be grateful to see them or know where I might acquire them from. 

 

Cheers

[Knuckles]

I was under the impression that Goods Green had already been phased out when the E2s were built between 1913-6.

 

http://www.lbscr.org/livery/index.html#Locos1911

 

I'm going with the Gloss Black livery because of what Bradley mentions in 'Locomotives of the LB&SC part 3' and the extended tank batch photos do not show much of a difference between the smokebox vs the rest of the engine above the running plate but still the works grey pics of 100 give me pause. This link also mentions the tit bit about 103 and 104 being repainted for their passenger experiment,

 

http://www.railuk.info/steam/getsteamclass.php?item=E2

 

so I am inclined to say that the large scale model is accurate, except for the safety valve area being left unpainted and the LBSC lettering not being shaded.

 

If anyone has any more LBSC livery pics of the E2s I would be grateful to see them or know where I might acquire them from. 

 

Cheers

 

'Ello Sleepy!  (He understands)

 

I also have an E2 livery question I'd like to know; were the E2's ever painted in that bright LB&SCR Yellow???  

 

I am thinking of painting my FUD model of the E2 in it.

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparkshotcustomcreationsscc?section=LB%26SCR+Loco%27+Bodies&s=0

but of course if it was never painted like that. :/

[Oldddudders]

'Ello Sleepy!  (He understands)

 

I also have an E2 livery question I'd like to know; were the E2's ever painted in that bright LB&SCR Yellow???  

 

I am thinking of painting my FUD model of the E2 in it.

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparkshotcustomcreationsscc?section=LB%26SCR+Loco'+Bodies&s=0

but of course if it was never painted like that. :/

The E2 came some time after repainting in yellow stopped. That was effectively in 1905 with the arrival of Douglas Earle Marsh, who introduced umber, and in most cases removed the names from smaller locomotives.