Which buffet for BR blue period x country trains ?

[rob D2]

Hi,

As above - I'm not sure if it was an RFO or RFB in loco hauled stock - I'm thinking of services to the West Country , circa 1981,82

 

Thanks for any gen !

 

Rob

[mjkerr]

Services between Scotland and South West were almost fixed formations, splitting / joining at Carstairs

These used a Mark 1 buffet (various types but not normally the RMB), located in the middle which was the Edinburgh portion
Typically :
TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO-RBR-TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO

The Mark 2 RFO wasn't introduced until the late 1980s, and would see the end of splitting / joining at Carstairs
They were used initially and caused some level of complaints

[Gwiwer]

Mk1 not Mk2 vehicles in the early 80s on all Cross-Country routes.

 

Those I remember were all RBR and of the 16xx and 17xx series.  If memory serves the 19xx series (RUO?) had gone by then.

[HillsideDepot]

Rather pedantic, but they weren't Cross-Country trains back then, they were Inter-Regionals.

 

They were the orphans of the network, roaming around with no one looking after them, crossing boundaries and taking second place to the trains of whichever Region they happened to be on at the time.

 

But we loved them, loco hauled and having frequent changes of power along the way. Not only that, but the paper labels they carried on their droplights made great souvenirs listing as they did all manner of far away places!

[keefer]

the RBR fleet was made up of both ex-RB (16xx and 17xx) and ex-RU (19xx) vehicles. externally, the 19xx ones had an extra door between the 2 kitchen windows and one less door on the corridor side.

although later than the OP's period, my 1988 P5 coaching stock book has vehicles of both types in the ICCX (interCity Cross Country) pool, though I don't what services were running then.

 

I think the ones most people remember are what became known as NE-SW services, some of which became HSTs (usually with one FO and a TRSB buffet) - like aberdeen/dundee/edinburgh/newcastle to poole/portsmouth/penzance.

a couple of well known ones from edinburgh included 1V93 and 1V96, which were often deltic-hauled to York.

[Steve T]

Mk1 not Mk2 vehicles in the early 80s on all Cross-Country routes.

Not on south Wales trains. When D1013 worked 1E54 Swansea - Leeds in 1977 that was on Mk2's.

 

Looking back at Dad's moves (he records the coach he travels in) I've found only one occasion between 1976 and 1982 of a Mk1 other than buffet cars on the Swansea - Leeds / Newcastle - Swansea. The Sheffield - Cardiff was aircons by late '79 and both pairs of trains on the Swansea - Manchester circuit were Mk2's by then as well.

[keefer]

Not on south Wales trains. When D1013 worked 1E54 Swansea - Leeds in 1977 that was on Mk2's.

 

 

I think Gwiwer was only referring to the buffet cars.

The only mk2 buffets available at the time in the OP would've been the mk2c/d TSOT conversions

[rob D2]

Thanks guys,

I don't think Bachmann do one of these in blue/ grey.

[Tim H]

Think there's some wires crossed here. "Mk1s" refers to the Buffer cars, not the rest of the stock.  Though I did see a full rake of Inter-City liveried Mk1s on a Cross-Country service in Cornwall as late as 1987

 

The lack of an RB/RBR is the one really annoying gap in Farsh's N-gauge Mk1 range, they were rather more common than RMBs on Inter-City workings.

[Steve T]

I think Gwiwer was only referring to the buffet cars.

The only mk2 buffets available at the time in the OP would've been the mk2c/d TSOT conversions

 

 

Think there's some wires crossed here. "Mk1s" refers to the Buffer cars, not the rest of the stock.  Though I did see a full rake of Inter-City liveried Mk1s on a Cross-Country service in Cornwall as late as 1987

 

The lack of an RB/RBR is the one really annoying gap in Farsh's N-gauge Mk1 range, they were rather more common than RMBs on Inter-City workings.

Ah, apologies. That'll teach me to reply when half asleep.

['CHARD]

Ah, apologies. That'll teach me to reply when half asleep.

 

No apologies required!

 

I'm looking forward to a separate thread on your dad's moves book!

[Waverley47708]

I had looked on the British Rail Coaching Stock forum for carriage workings in Scotland for 1985/86. I could not find them but did find either an LMR or WR one for that period. From it I managed to piece together a list of what I called portion trains between Edinburgh and Glasgow to locations down south via Birmingham.

 

The list is on an old laptop, I will revive it and upload it. Interestingly (or to be more accurate confusingly) it was the first or one of the first years they stopped using RBR etc and started using AJ4 for example. The latter system was not as easy to work out for me anyway.

[keefer]

Re: the later codes, these were the TOPS codes which replaced the letter codes, although no doubt the latter was still in use for some time on the coach ends.

The first 2 letters denote the type of coach:

AG = micro buffet

AH = Brake micro buffet

AJ = Restaurant Buffet with kitchen

AK = Kitchen buffet

AN = Miniature buffet

 

The next digit signifies the class of seating:

1 = first, 2 = second, 3 = composite, 4 = unclassed, 5 = none

 

The final character denotes the coach build

1 = mk1, z = mk2, A = mk2a etc. until F = mk2f, G = mk3 or 3a, H = mk3

 

So RBR = AJ41, RKB = AK51, RMB = AN21 and TSOT = AG2C and AG2D

 

The type of vehicle would also have an individual diagram number, which replaced the old 'diagram xx' type of notation.

This consisted of the first three characters of the TOPS code, with the final 2 digits specific to the individual diagram of coach

RBR = AJ403 (16xx/17xx) or AJ414 (19xx)

RKB = AK512

RMB = AN203 (1805 was AN202)

TSOT = AG201 (2c) or AG202 (2d)

 

There were also the ex-RF RB(K) vehicles, which were basically like an RBR with less seats.

I think they were mainly LMR allocated.

Annoyingly, I cant get at my other books, but IIRC they were in the 16xx series, below the RB numbers.

Also, I'm not sure when all the RB/RU finally became RBR, presumably the refurb programme took a few years

[Flood]

For 1981/82 services to the West Country you will be looking at the following services:

 

11.15 Plymouth - Manchester: BSO, 3 TSO, FK, Mk1 RMB, 3 TSO (LMR Mk2 air braked pressure vent stock)

 

15.05 Plymouth - Manchester: BSK, RMB, SK, 2 TSO, FK, 2 TSO, SK, BG (LMR vacuum braked stock)

 

07.36 Plymouth - Edinburgh: 3 TSO, FK, FO, Mk1 RBR, 4 TSO, BSO, Mk1 BG (WR Mk2 air conditioned stock, BSO Mk2 pressure vent)

 

08.20 Plymouth - Leeds: TSO, RMB, 2 TSO, FK, 2 TSO, BG (WR vacuum braked stock)

 

10.21 Penzance - Leeds: TSO, RBR, FO, 2 TSO, 2 BFK, 3 TSO, 2 TSO* (WR Mk2 air conditioned stock, *until 4th October)

 

07.40 Penzance - Liverpool: Mk1 RBR, 4 TSO, FK, 3 TSO, Mk1 BG (LMR Mk2 air braked pressure vent stock)

 

10.54 Paignton - Leeds: BFK*, 2 TSO*, 4 TSO, Mk1 RBR, FO, FK, 2 BSO (ER Mk2 air conditioned stock, BSOs Mk2 pressure vent, *until 4th October)

 

14.38 Paignton - Leeds:3 SK*, RMB*, 2 TSO, FK, 2 TSO, BG (WR vacuum braked stock, * ER stock)

 

and returns. I've not counted the Swansea - Leeds, Cardiff - Newcastle, Bristol - Newcastle or Taunton - Glasgow services.

 

 

So the buffets were split between 16xx/19xx RBR and 18xx RMB stock. Mainline made a 16xx Restaurant Buffet, Bachmann make a 19xx Restaurant Unclassified (these were given a buffet counter and converted to RBR stock) and Bachmann make a 18xx RMB.

 

The ex RB(K) stock was mainly used on Midland Mainline and Euston services. They were numbered 1618 - 1643 and 1773 - 1780).

 

Some of the RU coaches were converted to RB(S) from late 1972 and RU(B ) during 1975 and 1976. The RB(S) stock was refurbished along with the RB (1644 - 1772) stock from 1976 onwards to be classified RBR.

[keefer]

Excellent info, cheers Flood

[rob D2]

Yeah, thanks flood, that's a great list and very helpful.

 

I guess van trains by this time were exclusively GUV/BG formations. I have a few of these, did the newspaper branded ones get mixed in or run in their own rakes ?

 

If I do build this plank, it won't quite be the size of kirkhill.....more like 5' but it will have taps for water !

I'm discussing my ideas in layout planning at present .

[deltic79]

A little later but still Mk1 buffets, can anyone tell me what type is seen here on presumably a XC working at York in 1990 in the first scene please:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DM_sn-kzWg

 

The lack of full length red stripe is something I don't recall seeing before, hence my question.

 

Thanks

[bigP]

--

[Flood]

A little later but still Mk1 buffets, can anyone tell me what type is seen here on presumably a XC working at York in 1990 in the first scene please:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DM_sn-kzWg

 

The lack of full length red stripe is something I don't recall seeing before, hence my question.

 

Thanks

I agree with Paul that it's another ex RB (1644 - 1772) as modelled by Mainline. Like you say they normally had full length red stripes at the cantrail but there were obviously variations. Note the lack of InterCity on any of the Mk2 aircons except the last coach. The swallow style INTERCITY was originally only applied to Mk2F and Mk3 stock.

 

47837; Mk2D BFK, Mk1 RBR, 4 x Mk2D TSO, Mk2E? FO

 

As the TSOs have their toilet windows arranged to one side they must be Mk2D. The FO has a pressure ventilation box on the underframe so it can't be a Mk2F and Manchester Longsight had 2 Mk2D FOs and 13 Mk2E FOs so it could be either mark.

[Flood]

I guess van trains by this time were exclusively GUV/BG formations. I have a few of these, did the newspaper branded ones get mixed in or run in their own rakes ?

 

The Newspaper BGs didn't have Guard's compartments with internal brake valves so had to run with a Guard's compartment brake vehicle. Empty stock rakes of the previous nights parcels and newspaper trains could mix any vans you want. Southern Railway bogie B and CCT (or PMV) vehicles and BR CCTs were still around in 1981 so could have turned up.

 

For passenger workings if additional parcels space was needed then any GUV or BG could be added to any rake as required (as long as the brakes were compatible). A Newspaper branded BG could have been used but there would have been far more non-Newspaper ones spare.

[keefer]

Going back to the opening post however, the RFO only had seating and there were no kitchen or buffet facilities in the coach itself, so would require another kitchen/buffet coach to be in the formation as well (assuming it isn't just being used to provide additional seating of course).

 

 

Cheers,

Paul

The OP I think was referring to the Mk 2f RFB which is sometimes noted as RFO. These were former FO coaches with 2 seating bays removed to provide a small kitchen/pantry and serving counter. When they were on XC trains, they were formed BSO 4xTSO RFB

The original RFO was of course a Mk 1 coach to provide dining seats. I think the last of these went in the late 70s

[MJI]

From that era I remember

 

RBRs like the Mainline model (WR or MR ones)

RUs like the Bachmann Model (mainly WR ones)

RMBs like the Triang Hornby model (usually in Mark 1 sets)

BAR E1883 in a 2D set

 

As to formations, I would have to dig them up

 

Lots of Mark 1 sets, a few Mark2, MR Mark 2C, 1 x ER Mark 2D set, WR 2E sets

[johnw1]

RMB W1801 waiting at Sheffield to be attached to a southbound NE-SW working - 1977

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5648777996/

[davepen]

Travelled between Cheltenham and Durham a few times 1980 to 1984. 

By the end most were HST-125 services. (Both East Coast and X Country)

 

Some of the routing round Chesterfield and to Doncaster or Leeds at weekends could be interesting.

 

First trip in Jan 1980 had a compartment (SK ?), I think Brush 47 hauled to York then a Deltic.

Took my Bike in the van early 1982, so I think Mk1 BG (?). Not so easy on the return on the 125.

 

Many of the services through Cheltenham were Peak hauled. 

 

As a poor student didn't really notice/use the Buffet!

[Waverley47708]

At last I got on to my old and slow laptop. Below is a screen shot of a spreadsheet I put together. I could not get a Scottish Region Carriage workings document but found one for the Midland region, this listed trains South of Carstairs, as such was the combined Edinburgh and Glasgow portion. I had omitted the portion from Glasgow for my purposes. This was based on my memories that the buffet coach came from the Edinburgh portion.

 

Have set it out as the train would sit in Waverley viewed from the Mound side looking North across to Princess Street Gardens (as viewed on my layout). Times are for arrival at or departure from Waverley.