brylonscamel Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I'm about to embark on my first locomotive kit build and I'm asking a novice question (which may have been covered before!) ... Basically I'm keen to hear from any experienced modellers as to their preferred tools when constructing a brass and whitemetal kits. Specifically I'm keen to hear about the following product combinations Soldering Irons Solder Flux Soldering aids (clamps, stands etc) Once again - your advice is most welcome! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 My experience is all based on building 4mm models, but if that;s waht you are doing then here goes. A good 50 watt (minimum) temperature controlled soldering iron. One that has a thermocouple sensor in the element and properly regulates the temperature. A selection of interchangeable bits. A 3mm chisel bit will sercve for mots work and a smaller one for adding fine detail. for 145 or 188 deg solder for brass and nickle silver (I use London Road Models 145 and find it very good). Carrs 100 degree for white metal. A water based flux. Again I use LRM's 12% Phosflux. Use a slightly lower strength (6%) for white metal. Avoid fluxes that needs a lot of washing off, Paste fluxes in particular seem more difficult to remove and cause problems later. Aluminium hairclips and small wooden clothes pegs are useful for holding items together. Fibreglass brushes and small scrapers are good for removing excess solder, although solder with good "flow" characteristics, coupled with a powerful soldering iron will ensure that you will get a small amount of solder to run cleanly into the joint, leaving little excess. Finally a copy of Iain Rice's "Etched Locomotive Construction" although first published in 1990, still remains one of the best books on the topic. Other members will now come along with their own preferences so expect to become a bit confused. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I agree with almost everything Jol says - especially the bit about Iain Rice's book. I do find etched kits to be rather more forgiving with regard both the equipment and techniques used compared with whitemetal. For instance, I've got a cheap and cheerful Maplins adjustable iron for etched kits but wouldn't dream of using anything but a high-quality Weller iron for whitemetal. One thing I would say, no matter what kind of iron you end up with, is to experiment with different types of tips. You might have all the skills needed and the perfect iron for the job, but if its fitted with a tip that doesn't suit you, you will struggle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I'm about to embark on my first locomotive kit build and I'm asking a novice question (which may have been covered before!) ... Basically I'm keen to hear from any experienced modellers as to their preferred tools when constructing a brass and whitemetal kits. Specifically I'm keen to hear about the following product combinations Soldering Irons Solder Flux Soldering aids (clamps, stands etc) Once again - your advice is most welcome! Not an expert by any means but this works well for me. I use a mixture of 145,188 and 243 degree solder with a temperature controlled soldering iron. General rule is for the iron to be set at a temperature of roughly twice the solder melting temperature. Where possible tin parts first cleaning most of the solder away with a glass fibre brush before making the joint. This helps to minimise the amount of cleaning up after the joint is made. Keep the parts you are soldering as clean as possible by cleaning them with a fine brass wire brush before soldering and scrubbing the part under the tap straight after soldering. I use Carrs Red Label Flux. I use the different temperature solders for assembling sub assemblies where dwelling too long with the iron can result in the previous joint coming loose although lots of people use the same temperature solder throughout without any problem. It is important to keep the tip of the iron clean and I use a but cleaner from Eileen's Emporium. It is also important to remove all traces of the different temperature solders from the bit otherwise you will get a mixed alloy which may result in problems. Use a selection of different bit sizes and don't be afraid to take a file to old bits to fashion fine chisel edges (with the iron cold) to get the heat where it is needed for some small parts. If you do get surplus solder on the part it can be removed by gently rubbing with a glass fibre brush. However be careful as the detail particularly rivets can disappear after a few applications of this process. I often use a bit of scrap fret and fashion it into various chisel shaped scrapers and then carefully scratch off the surplus solder. The main benefit of this is that the material is the same hardness and hence won't scratch the surface or accidentally remove small etched details on the surface whilst you are working. For clamps generally use anything suitable but be careful that the clamp doesn't act as a heat sink and draw the heat away from the joint. Also some clamps can be susceptible to corrosion from flux, so again clean and dry them with each joint made. Possibly before launching on a loco kit try on some scrap material to get the feel for soldering. If you are using White metal then use low melt solder (70 degrees) and be careful not to melt the castings by setting the iron temperature a little below the melting temperature (Around 145 degrees but be careful if Pewter as this is much lower). Again experiment on some waste. Keep everything as clean as possible and sometimes warming the castings up in the oven (below the melting temp!) before you go near them with the iron can help reduce the time to get the joint hot enough for the solder to flow. Note that cast parts will draw away the heat more quickly than thin etches do as a result of the thermal mass associated with them. Regards Mark Humphrys Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Yes, use 70 degree solder for white metal but iron temperature needs to be adjustable as for attaching small items you need it to be somewhere above 70 degrees but below the white metal melting temperature (test on a scrap piece about the same size as the part you are going to solder on) whereas for joining the larger parts together it needs to be hotter as they will drain the heat faster than you can get it into the joint....! Long seams are the most difficult as the parts need to be hot enough for the solder to run along the joint without solidifying; tacking the parts together can also work, then you can do the seam bit by bit. White metal parts do not generally distort during soldering but some thin (narrow) brass parts can distort so tacking will minimise this. Alternatively start in the middle and work out.... My advice would be to do a couple of wagon kits, one of each, before attempting an expensive loco kit. You might also find that you get along better with one type than the other. It definitely pays off to get an adjustable temperature soldering iron. I would ward against filing bits though as they generally come with a plated coating and should be cleaned chemically not abrasively. You should be able to get a tip-cleaner and tinner in the UK, I use a Radio Shack one that is like a small flat tin of paste that contains solder and cleaner - you just plunge the hot tip in and it comes out clean and tinned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
decauville1126 Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I think you are going to get a wide variety or permutations in answer to your question. But eventually you will find what works best with what for what you are doing. I use Powerflow flux - available in big tubs from Screwfix quite cheaply - for whitemetal, brass, bronze, copper and mild steel in builds up to 7mm scale. If I hit a hitch then I'll try the various Carrs fluxes but they are expensive for the quantity in the bottle. After that I use silver solder, brazing, and finally gas and electric arc welding when heading into the biggish stuff (Up to 1" plate). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I think you are going to get a wide variety or permutations in answer to your question. But eventually you will find what works best with what for what you are doing. I use Powerflow flux - available in big tubs from Screwfix quite cheaply - for whitemetal, brass, bronze, copper and mild steel in builds up to 7mm scale. If I hit a hitch then I'll try the various Carrs fluxes but they are expensive for the quantity in the bottle. After that I use silver solder, brazing, and finally gas and electric arc welding when heading into the biggish stuff (Up to 1" plate). How many beginner loco kit builders are going to be welding 1'' plate ..........? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I think you are going to get a wide variety or permutations in answer to your question. But eventually you will find what works best with what for what you are doing. I use Powerflow flux - available in big tubs from Screwfix quite cheaply - for whitemetal, brass, bronze, copper and mild steel in builds up to 7mm scale. If I hit a hitch then I'll try the various Carrs fluxes but they are expensive for the quantity in the bottle. After that I use silver solder, brazing, and finally gas and electric arc welding when heading into the biggish stuff (Up to 1" plate). Flux is the one area where I strongly countenance the use of a flux that is unlikely to leave any residue and any remnants are easily washed off. That's why I stick to water based phosphoric acid fluxes, although I recognise that Powerflow is a "powerful" flux and has a strong following. At least two of the best known professional painters will not undertake painting a model that has been soldered using Powerflow or similar fluxes. They found that it was not unusual for models to be returned after some months with paint "pickling" and lifting around solder joints. As already mentioned, keeping the soldering iron tip clean is important. Having used the "damp sponge" cleaner approach for years - as supplied with Antex and other iron holders - I have found the gold coloured "scrub bud" type works much better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
decauville1126 Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Flux is the one area where I strongly countenance the use of a flux that is unlikely to leave any residue and any remnants are easily washed off. That's why I stick to water based phosphoric acid fluxes, although I recognise that Powerflow is a "powerful" flux and has a strong following. At least two of the best known professional painters will not undertake painting a model that has been soldered using Powerflow or similar fluxes. They found that it was not unusual for models to be returned after some months with paint "pickling" and lifting around solder joints. As already mentioned, keeping the soldering iron tip clean is important. Having used the "damp sponge" cleaner approach for years - as supplied with Antex and other iron holders - I have found the gold coloured "scrub bud" type works much better. I've found that a few good cycles in an ultrasonic bath helps clear Powerflow residue after rinsing. And I've also occasional problems with Carr's green flux leaving effloresence even after many cleaning cycles and even refluxing and recleaning. All the Iain Rice books are well worth acquiring - sometimes quite cheaply on ebay - and although they stop short of more recent developments are written in an excellent non-patronising style to encourage the beginner. Which is where we came in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 A question that will give you as many answers as there are replies. The basics everyone above has covered, but do what feels good, right for you. I still pick up ideas from others and adapt them for my own use. Start off with a cheaper iron if you don't enjoy building not to much money has been wasted, and the same if you do you can upgrade with your new found knowledge. Enjoy it is great fun as long as you treat it as a hobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbyhorse Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Peter is spot on with the advice, also have a look the various builds and look at the soldering on the models. If you find one you like you could always contact that builder to find out the techniques. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earlswood Nob Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Good morning all I find that I am always learning better techniques for soldering locos. The one thing that is essential is cleaning the pieces that are to be soldered together. Earlswood nob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Flux is the one area where I strongly countenance the use of a flux that is unlikely to leave any residue and any remnants are easily washed off. That's why I stick to water based phosphoric acid fluxes, although I recognise that Powerflow is a "powerful" flux and has a strong following. The carrier in powerflow type fluxes is soap, making it water soluble. Pouring boiling water over the model at the end of each soldering session will completely remove any fix residue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 A question that will give you as many answers as there are replies. The basics everyone above has covered, but do what feels good, right for you. I still pick up ideas from others and adapt them for my own use. Start off with a cheaper iron if you don't enjoy building not to much money has been wasted, and the same if you do you can upgrade with your new found knowledge. Enjoy it is great fun as long as you treat it as a hobby. While it is good advice not to invest in expensive equipment that you may find you don't use very much, it can also be a false economy to buy cheaply. Trying to get good results, especially when starting out, is more likely to be hampered by using the wrong materials (solder or flux) or poor tools. If the price of a soldering iron is likely to be an issue, then a 25w Antex, with a 3mm bit would be a good starting place. The less expensive TCUs fro Maplin look good value but don't appear to have a chisel bit available, possibly because they are aimed at the electronics market. There is also a new(?) Antex 50W temp controller digital iron http://www.rapidonline.com/antex-tcs-50w-digital-temperature-controlled-soldering-iron-555121, which might be worth considering at the same sort of price as the Maplin units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 The carrier in powerflow type fluxes is soap, making it water soluble. Pouring boiling water over the model at the end of each soldering session will completely remove any fix residue. Probably soap based as it is used by plumbers and will wash out of any joints over a period of time. I've used Powerflow, Bakers Fluid, Carrs Green or Red and LRM12% Phosflux, using the same approach to cleaning after each session (wash hands and model in warm water, lightly scrub model with Cif, rinse and put to dry in warm place) and only with phosphric acid has there been a absence of any "verdegris" or other contamination over a period of time. Although I have a direct connection with LRM and that's why I use their product, I would still use any make of phosphoric based flux (Eileen's, Hobby Holidays, etc.) in preference to the others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 With soldering most things you get a couple of chances and can 'learn on the job.- I always struggled with whitemetal castings, where you don't get a second chance, just a puddle of molten metal. This was rectified by watching Andy Duncan demonstarting, he does loads of exhibitions, and it's well worth a few moments of your time if you can catch up with him. He makes it look easy, and if you follow his advice it is! - Phosphoric acid as flux for whitemetal, and I now use it for pretty much everything else as well, but you will no doubt find your own favourites as you progress. A final thought with whitemetal soldering is to buy a few random castings from Eay, or exhibitions, to practice on. That way you don't wreck anything important if it all goes wrong. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted April 8, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2016 Some traders at exhibitions have offcuts or scrap etchings in a tub for not much money, get a handful of various sizes and thicknesses to practice on, also useful for learning annealing, rolling and bending. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted April 8, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2016 I would suggest doing a search in this section, there are plenty of threads covering all the aspects you are looking at. Personally, I've ended up with a soldering station from Farnell that seems to be working well for me. Like others I have a selection of tips, fine and chisel. I've got a selection of solders, although tend to use up my old reel of electrical solder for most things and then use the lower melt ones where necessary. For flux, I succumbed to the hype and got some Carrs Yellow but didn't find it particularly brilliant. At this point I reached for my La-Co pot that I had left over from installing central heating pipework and it works just as well, if not better on the brass work I've done so far. No issue with residue after washing off this non-acid/corrosive flux. You don't have to buy all these "specialist" products at inflated prices to get the job done. Some are worth getting, but others are easily substituted. It pays to look around (as you are doing by taking the step of asking you question). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I find bulldog clips of various sizes an excellent alternative to burnt fingers. Phosphoric acid is cheap, works well for brass, nickel silver and whitemetal and cleans off easily. Most of my soldering is done with a cheap variable heat (£3) iron bought here in Bangkok with an Antec 80W iron ready for soldering heavy sections or where I need to get a lot of heat in swiftly (but never with whitemetal!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brylonscamel Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 Thanks so much! This is precisely the reason I have come to throw my questions onto the forum - I'm finding (fellow) modellers are very forthcoming with advice. Despite the variety of approaches and answers there is some consensus and this has persuaded me to do some test pieces with scrap parts. I might take on a simple wagon kit after that. My starter kit (A DJH Kitk J35) has indeed been an investment and I'm not inclined to embark on it without trying some techniques and equipment first. It's becoming obvious that my electrical and plumbing soldering skills may not immediately translate to fine modelling! I'm going to head out to some model rail exhibitions and keep an eye out for the books(s) mentioned. Cheers! Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Hello Brian, well worth getting to one of the "specialist" shows if you can, where you will find demonstrators, tool suppliers and kit producers who are willing to discuss techniques to assemble their products. Railex, ExpoEM, Scaleforum abd Railwells, are ones that immediately come to mind, but there may be others more local to you. Jol edited for poor spelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brylonscamel Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 Hello Brian, well worth getting to one of the "specialist" shows if you can, where you will find demonstrators, tool suppliers and kit producers who are willing to discuss techniques to assemble their products. Railex, ExpoEM, Scaleforum abd Railwells, are ones that immediately come to mind, but their may be others more local to you. Jol I agree .. having missed a couple of local ones earlier in the year but I'm keeping an eye out for others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brylonscamel Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 My experience is all based on building 4mm models, but if that;s waht you are doing then here goes. A good 50 watt (minimum) temperature controlled soldering iron. One that has a thermocouple sensor in the element and properly regulates the temperature. A selection of interchangeable bits. A 3mm chisel bit will sercve for mots work and a smaller one for adding fine detail. for 145 or 188 deg solder for brass and nickle silver (I use London Road Models 145 and find it very good). Carrs 100 degree for white metal. A water based flux. Again I use LRM's 12% Phosflux. Use a slightly lower strength (6%) for white metal. Avoid fluxes that needs a lot of washing off, Paste fluxes in particular seem more difficult to remove and cause problems later. Aluminium hairclips and small wooden clothes pegs are useful for holding items together. Fibreglass brushes and small scrapers are good for removing excess solder, although solder with good "flow" characteristics, coupled with a powerful soldering iron will ensure that you will get a small amount of solder to run cleanly into the joint, leaving little excess. Finally a copy of Iain Rice's "Etched Locomotive Construction" although first published in 1990, still remains one of the best books on the topic. Other members will now come along with their own preferences so expect to become a bit confused. Jol Not too confused .. although you're right about the variety of responses! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brylonscamel Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 " ... as long as you treat it as a hobby." - surely it is a very serious business? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brylonscamel Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 " ... as long as you treat it as a hobby." - surely it is a very serious business? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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