The omnipresent Western Region

[John_Miles]

seems quite appropriate that "The King" is often thought of as the ultimate in steam power

 

Really??? If you want to pick a stand out GWR loco surely the Castles and if you look at the results of the 1948 loco exchanges, the 4-6-0 which produced the greatest power was a Royal Scot (on Hemerdon as well).

[ejstubbs]

I assume he meant DoG & Tornado one of which was an experimental engine and the other a reproduction!

 

I believe that the last of the Britannias was outshopped from Crewe later than Duke of Gloucester.

[Andy Kirkham]

Not really the case. Your post Spurs me to mention 'Horfield' as a worthy current example. As an occasional member of the operating team I know the builders would certainly not classify their creation among the " elite" group mentioned earlier, but as an example of a prototypical four track mainline running 12 coach and 50 wagon trains along its 35' length it surely fits the bill. Not only this but ALL the stock is expertly weathered to represent a true picture of the Western Region in BR days Ie. filthy.

 

It's replacement is already in the advanced planning stages and will also depict a, much better known, section of WR main line. Meantime Horfield continues on the circuit and can be seen in action at the Swindon festival of steam on Sept 10/11th and also at the Wigan finescale exhibition on October 1/2nd 2016. The layout was featured in Hornby magazine February 2014 and BRM February 2016.

I shall try to get to Swindon and see it 

[melmerby]

I believe that the last of the Britannias was outshopped from Crewe later than Duke of Gloucester.

The last 10 in fact but they aren't 3 cylinder which I assumed was what was being pointed out.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[APOLLO]

Born & raised in Wigan back in 1952 I remember the 60's well. Twas all LMS / BR standards for me back then. An ex LNER "sixer" was a rarity. Ex GWR locos were rarer still, only seen occasionally as some were cut up at Central Wagon, a couple of Panniers and a Hall / Grange / Manor or two (none had number plates so god knows what they were !!).

 

The GWR & Southern were "Holiday" lines for me. Ilfracombe in 1963 (spam cans and a bit of western at Barnstaple etc). My main memories of ex GWR are of numerous family holidays from 63 to 69 at Fairbourne & Towyn on the Cambrian line, and down in Herefordshire / The Cotswolds. Small ex GW locos, Halls, Granges and Manors etc. All a bit grubby back then, the locos were not very inspirational to me but the railways were, even after the diesels took over around 1965/6. I'm a big Western hydraulic fan.

 

We never went "east" therefore my interest and explorations were mainly in that direction as I became old enough to venture "afar". But I also just missed out on the LNER pacifics, nearly all gone. A visit York shed in 1966 yielded only B1's, K1's and a couple of V2's. (oh, and my first Deltic, St Paddy thundering north - what an impression that made !! - hooked for life on the ER !!.

 

Not that I dislike the GWR - just that it's not for me. I do however remember taking my son to the East Lancs Railway quite a few years ago and was mightily impressed with the absolutely spotless "Nunney Castle" on our train. We even had a look on the footplate. Indeed a beautiful loco - but for me a mucky Dub Dee would have been quite OK !!.

 

I have a couple of ex GWR locos which I occasionally run, including a superb running 1960's Hornby Dublo "Cardiff Castle" and a Hornby "Olton Hall" which has been de-plated and very heavily weathered (sacrilege !!).

 

Brit15

[ejstubbs]

The last 10 in fact but they aren't 3 cylinder which I assumed was what was being pointed out.

 

O...K.  Maybe.  I read "...four hundred three cylinder UK pacifics, including the last two built..." to mean that the last two UK pacifics to be built had three cylinders.  I'm trying to understand how that assertion might be justified.

 

As I say, I may well be displaying jaw-dropping levels of ignorance here.  For example, were three-cylinder pacifics built in the UK for foreign markets after 1954?

[Zomboid]

I seem to recall reading that Stanier's first LMS design had the copper/ brass safety valve cover on the drawing board, but that idea was vetoed further up in the organisation. Might be a myth, but if it was there I can understand the company not wanting to copy such a GW signature feature.

Would agree that Stanier's LMS designs were largely more functional than the GW, or the other two for that matter.

[coachmann]

A photo exists of the 5MT 2-6-0 with a brass safety valve...'Stanier Locomotives' by Brian Haresnape (Ian Allan Ltd) page 27. They thought it might please Mr.Stanier. It just didn't sit well on his loco.

[Co-tr-Paul]

Yeah, thank Brunel for that...

I just had a moment there, I mean, the railways started up here in the North but somehow no one wants to model the filth and grot of the 'Yorksheh Coalfields' and t'Mills or the Teesside steelworks or the Tyne dockyards, it's all blooming meadows and pastures green!

Just needed to ask that's all, think I'm doing something wrong thinking how filthy I like my rolling stock to be, and not a single chocolate and cream coach to be found!

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge... Say no more!!

Paragon

 

First steam railway engine was built by Cornishman for Wales........ .

[melmerby]

O...K.  Maybe.  I read "...four hundred three cylinder UK pacifics, including the last two built..." to mean that the last two UK pacifics to be built had three cylinders.  I'm trying to understand how that assertion might be justified.

 

As I say, I may well be displaying jaw-dropping levels of ignorance here.  For example, were three-cylinder pacifics built in the UK for foreign markets after 1954?

The LNER built three cylinder Pacifics in some numbers, Bulleid (an ex LNER man) built a fair few on the Southern but didn't copy the LNER valve gear or boilers.

DoG had three cylinders but was more LMS in inspiration and was somewhat an experimental loco.

The LMS and GWR didn't build three cylinder Pacifics. The GWR had one pacific, of course, the UK's first, but it was really only a Star with a long boiler and a trailing truck.

 

Keith

[ejstubbs]

DoG had three cylinders

 

Ah, now that I hadn't clocked.  Thanks for the elucidation.  Nonetheless, it can't be counted as one of "the last two built" because the last Britannia was outshopped after DoG.

[bike2steam]

For example, were three-cylinder pacifics built in the UK for foreign markets after 1954?[/font][/color]

I think 1955/6 saw the last large British steam locos built for export, all 4-cylinder 'garratts', the 59th class for the EAR, and the GMA for the SAR.

[RJD]

I was born and raised in Birmingham, travelled to Wolverhampton a lot, and to London.  When I was young I only had to compare three stations - Snow Hill with New Street; Wolves Low Level with High Level; and Paddington with old Euston. These old GWR stations were airy and well laid-out and the old LNWR were cramped and, in BR days, very dirty. I am sure that influenced my love of the GWR.  

 

In my 20’s, I happened to go into the Hall at Euston and was amazed at its style and elegance.  The Euston Arch was a statement to the world that railways had arrived and were to be reckoned with.   I hope that Curzon Street in Birmingham is restored to its former glory, if only to make up for the destruction of the Euston Arch and Hall. 

 

 

My Dad's best friend worked for BR (LMR) out of Euston and when I was about 11 years old, our family toured the Science Museum (Kensington) in the 1950's with him. We came to a hall with large scale model locomotives that included a GWR Collett (King or Castle?)  and a Stanier Pacific in LMS red.   Dad's friend asked me which I preferred.  I pondered for a long time, knowing if I didn’t chose the Stanier he would be disappointed, but I eventually pointed to the Collett engine.  He was disappointed.  Now I know I should have said, “Don’t be disappointed, they were both designed by Swindon-trained men!”

[melmerby]

A photo exists of the 5MT 2-6-0 with a brass safety valve...'Stanier Locomotives' by Brian Haresnape (Ian Allan Ltd) page 27. They thought it might please Mr.Stanier. It just didn't sit well on his loco.

I don't think W.A.S. was pleased either.

I don't think it looked too out of place as the loco looked like a "modernised" 43XX.

It was removed pretty quickly.

 

Keith

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, all,

 

I have been following this thread, where contributors have been responding to the question: “Why are there so many Western Region/ GWR … themed layouts?”

 

I can only answer for myself – and the reasons are a little complex.

 

I grew up as a sickly child in Sydney, Australia in a family of limited means. My parents lay-byed a Tri-ang train set (which cost the equivalent of two weeks’ wages) which I received as a Christmas present in 1955. (The Princess Elizabeth loco is still in full working order!) This provided an indoor interest, as I was unable to play outdoors as much as other children. Slowly and steadily, Christmas and birthday presents swelled the collection, with no particular regional theme until I reached high school.

 

Several of my fellow high school students shared an interest in model trains and railway photography and we often compared notes and ideas. By this time, I possessed two Dean Singles, among other locos. One of my mates had a Graham Farish 94XX 0-6-0PT, which looked great when he brought it to my layout on several visits. By this time, also, I had started to learn about my UK ancestry (particularly the Welsh part).

 

Having limited means to pursue the hobby, I chose to continue modelling British railways, rather than my local NSWGR, because of the prohibitive cost of local models. (This is less of an issue now for new Aussie modellers.) Nevertheless, I still studied the local designs – enough to note the influence of British engineers on NSWGR practice, as I noted in Posts #47 and #61 here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69632-british-outline-locos-overseas/page-2

 

During my time in high school, I resolved to try to assemble a representative collection of GWR and BR(W) locos and stock, aiming mainly at the 1930s and the early 1960s. I began trying to convert some Tri-ang models, but soon moved on to kits. The collection had a big boost when I brought home a large box of loco and rolling stock kits (and a Grafar 94XX) purchased in the UK during my 1975 visit. Since then, the collection has continued to grow, with a mix of RTR, kits and scratchbuilt models. The locos would look silly running around without suitable rolling stock, so I have acquired or constructed sufficient stock to accompany any and all of the locos.

 

Most of the collection is now GWR or BR(W), but there are some interlopers – particularly from the LNER - mainly due to my fondness of the Hornby live steam system. Trains that can now be reproduced in full, with appropriate rolling stock, include:

• South Wales Pullman, Aug 1960
• South Wales Pullman, 1963
• The Elizabethan, 1958-62
• The Talisman, 1960-61
• Cambrian Coast Express, 1958
• Torbay Express, 1962
• Red Dragon, 1957
• Cheltenham Flyer, 1938-39
• PO South Wales coal trains, both full and empty
• Mixed goods trains, with Mid-Wales PO wagons and Toads
• Several varieties of branch line passenger trains

My British loco collection can be summarised as follows:

 

GWR (and constituents):

Wheel Arrangement                            Number/Name

 

0-4-2T                                               848, 4833

2-4-0T                                              1196
0-4-4T                                               23

0-6-0T                                               5 Portishead, 1376, 2161

0-6-0ST                                            1331

0-6-0PT                                            1565, 1890, 2783, 6401, 6435, 4658, 9402

0-6-2T                                               411, 1670, 6667

2-6-2T                                               4508, 5164, 6148

0-6-0                                                 908, 885, 2322, 2517, 2251

4-2-2                                                 3011 Greyhound, 3046 Lord of the Isles

4-4-0                                                 3283 Comet, 3265 Tre Pol & Pen, 3293 Earl Cawdor, 3440 City of Truro, 3713 City of Chester, 3814 County of Chester

4-6-0                                                 2918 Saint Catherine, 2953 Titley Court, 4034 Queen Adelaide, 4908 Broome Hall, 5025 Chirk Castle

2-6-0                                                 2620, 6326

2-8-0                                                 2818, 3026

Railcar                                              22

 

 

BR(W):

Wheel Arrangement                            Number/Name

 

0-4-2T                                              1466

0-6-0PT                                            5796

2-6-2T                                              4569, 5564, 82004

0-6-0                                                2213, 2251, 2516

4-6-0                                                4081 Warwick Castle, 6007 King William III, 7812 Erlestoke Manor, 7827 Lydham Manor, 75001

4-6-2                                                70018 Flying Dutchman, 70021 Morning Star

2-6-0                                                6384, 46251, 78005

2-8-0                                                2803, 3040

2-10-0                                              92220 Evening Star

0-6-0 DE                                          15104, 15105

Railcar                                             W22, W55027, WR Blue Pullman

Bo-Bo                                              D843 Sharpshooter

 

 

Others:

Wheel Arrangement                            Number/Name

0-2-2                                                 Rocket

0-4-0ST                                             (CR) 270

0-4-0 DM                                           11709

0-6-2T                                               69567 (H-D 3R)

4-2-2                                                 (GNR) 1, (CR) 123

4-6-0                                                 7025 Sudeley Castle (H-D 3R)

4-6-2                                                 7 Sir Nigel Gresley (H-D 3R), 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower (LS), 60030 Golden Fleece, 2509 Silver Link (LS), 4472 Flying Scotsman (LS), 6201 Princess Elizabeth

2-8-0                                                 48158 (H-D 3R)

2-8-2                                                 2001 Cock of the North

Railbus                                             M79971

 

 

I now also have a small number of H0 NSW models (which I run on my club’s layout when set up for Aussie models), some “Thomas” characters (for use with my grandchildren) and some H0 scale Aussie trams. My main love, though, is still the GWR and BR(W) collection.

 

Glimpses of the collection may be found here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70550-carmarthen-junction-miscellena/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67522-carmarthen-junction-engine-shed/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70438-gwr-4-4-0s-on-carmarthen-junction/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77505-rosemount-tramway/

 

Some recent projects:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107593-gwr-1076-class-double-framed-pannier-tank/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88895-gwr-ex-cambrian-railways-73-class-0-6-0/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72460-gwr-1331-ex-whitland-cardigan-0-6-0st-project/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67786-gwr-1376-ex-bristol-exeter-0-6-0t-project/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110243-earl-cawdor-makeover/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102076-motorisation-of-gbl-caledonian-single-and-upgrading-of-her-coaches/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103776-motorise-gbl-stephensons-rocket/

 

I have several more projects under way, so “watch this space”.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[xveitch]

Has anyone thought of the fact that very few GWR locos had outside valve gear, therefore designing and building kits were easier, so back when RTR was limited, GWR or BR(W) locos were preferred, leading to the new RTR to also be GWR? 

 

Xander

[westerner]

Is this still true. Reading some of the layout threads there seem to be as many if not more ECML layouts that GWR/WR layouts

[Dorsetmike]

Looking at things from the N gauge modeller, whish is where I've been for over 40 years, my contention is that there are so many GWR/BR(W) layouts because there is such a wide selection of stock compared to the other grouping companies, almost an inverse catch 22. At least that was the position until a few years after Bachman took over Farish and Dapol and UM started N gauge, say about 12 years ago.

One possible reason is that GWR standardised their stock far more than any of the other grouping companies, (and as has been mentioned, inside valve gear is easier to model)

In N gauge you have at least 4 GWR 4-6-0s RTR, out of maybe 6 or 7 classes, SR still has none RTR out of 4 (or 9 if you include ex LSWR Drummond classes) LMS and LNER are slightly better served in more recent years, but LMS for years had only the black 5 and Peco Jubilee, it was also comparatively recently that there were any BR4-6-0s.

Apart from 4-6-0s the story is much the same, until Dapol came on the scene there was no SR, LMS or LNER tank loco (I don't count the various liveried Farish "general purpose tanks and the Jinty was a fairly late arrival on the pre Bachman scene), until Union Mills there were no SR 0-6-0s nor 4-4-0, (similar story for LNER and LMS except for the Farish 4F and 4P)

SO how many chose GWR because that was the largest selection of readily available RTR stock? Or to put it another way if there had been a good selection of SR instead of GWR would we have seen loads of SR branch lines modelled.

A branch line terminus to fiddle was probably the preferred layout due to space and comparative ease of construction and with a couple of panniers and/or prairies could be run fairly convincingly with maybe the occasional Hall; until recently virtually impossible for SR, LMS or LNER unless you were prepared to use mainly kit or scratch built stock. I model SR 1930s, out of 40+ locos only 10 (M7s, Terrier, T9, 700, 0395, N class and Schools are RTR, Nelsons, Arthurs H15s and S15s Z class tanks, Drummond K10, Adams Jubilee,  T1, B4s are either kits, hacked or scratch built. Of the RTR stock the Union Mills T9 has had the tender replaced with a Drummond water cart, one of the N class is now an N1.

 

Coaching stock has also been a similar story,  Farish brought out Bulleid stock a couple of years ago (no use for a 1930s layout), Dapol brought out Maunsells last year.

 

So why, you ask, don't I model a later period? Simply because I think Malachite is a ghastly colour (I usually spell it a bit different) I much prefer Maunsell's olive, plus I remember seeing Adams, Drummond Urie and Maunsell classes and by the time spam cans came in I had other interests.

[phil_sutters]

Not forgetting the Dainton-based (7mm) layout I saw a few years back.

 

A friend of mine is modelling Box in EM - but he's run out of space & is running out of time (he's 86).

 

Martin

A spot of reference material - found in a house in North Somerset - passed to my father, who identified it as being by A.H.Malan. It is now, via the NRM, in the National Archive, along with two other old prints, probably taken nearby around the same time. 

I have included the notes on the back of one of the photos to give some information and my Dad's notes about the dating and attribution to Malan.

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect the Distant Signal visible in two of the photos was Box's Down Distant so the photos were taken west of the western end of Box Tunnel looking towards the south west - towards Middle Hill Tunnel (i.e the opposite end of Middle Hill Tunnel from the 'Wigmore Castle' picture), - as the siding (Pictors Siding) appears to be in position immediately beyond the near fence.  In addition Box's Down Distant would have been at that time the only isolated (as opposed to lower arm) Distant Signal in that area.

[HillsideDepot]

I'm not so sure, Mike. The line between Box and Middle Hill tunnels is straight, and the curve in these two wonderful photos matches that after the A4 overbridge heading towards Ashley Crossing south west of Box Station. The telegraph pole route would therefore be on the Down Side which matches its position in later years, albeit it could have been moved. According to Cooke Pictor's Siding PSA wasn't made until 13/11/96.

 

Great photos though, whatever the details actually are.

[Kris]

Thanks for sharing those photos, they are lovely and a fascinating record of late Victorian GWR.

[John_Miles]

It is now, via the NRM, in the National Archive, along with two other old prints, probably taken nearby around the same time.

 

Putting things in the care of the NRM is not necessarily a good idea. They charge large amounts for prints and if you want to include them in a publication the charges are very steep. The thinking seems to  be that there are huge profits to be made from books and so the NRM should have its cut. Having been involved in the publishing of two railway books, I have found that when you take into account the costs of the research and acquiring material you make a significant loss.

 

Also the NRM is something of a black hole. They have huge storage rooms full of uncatalogued material. I have had a preview of some of this and there are many things in there which would be of huge interest to most of us. In their defence, they have in recent years made significant use of volunteer labour to catalogue such things as the Swindon drawings.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not so sure, Mike. The line between Box and Middle Hill tunnels is straight, and the curve in these two wonderful photos matches that after the A4 overbridge heading towards Ashley Crossing south west of Box Station. The telegraph pole route would therefore be on the Down Side which matches its position in later years, albeit it could have been moved. According to Cooke Pictor's Siding PSA wasn't made until 13/11/96.

 

Great photos though, whatever the details actually are.

 

It could be Farleigh Down's Up Distant although I don't know when Farleigh Siding Siding signalbox was in operation or the crossing box - all the rest were lower arm distants.

[phil_sutters]

Putting things in the care of the NRM is not necessarily a good idea. They charge large amounts for prints and if you want to include them in a publication the charges are very steep. The thinking seems to  be that there are huge profits to be made from books and so the NRM should have its cut. Having been involved in the publishing of two railway books, I have found that when you take into account the costs of the research and acquiring material you make a significant loss.

 

Also the NRM is something of a black hole. They have huge storage rooms full of uncatalogued material. I have had a preview of some of this and there are many things in there which would be of huge interest to most of us. In their defence, they have in recent years made significant use of volunteer labour to catalogue such things as the Swindon drawings.

I did send them to NRM, but they, once they confirmed that A.H.Malan was the photographer, forwarded them to the National Archive at Kew. They hold the main collection of Malan's work it appears. I wasn't going to flog them off to see them disappear into a private collection. Neither NRM or NA have told me not to publish them, so I am happy to share them on line. They were printed on very thin paper which was already beginning to crumble at the edges, so I thought that they would be better off in professional archivist's hands.