More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[John-Miles]

6 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Also looks like a Grasmoor wagon from Chesterfield with the writing on a slope further back in the yard.

 

Tony

I grew up in Chesterfield. If anybody said they came from Grassmoor, you ran away from them as fast as you could.

[Compound2632]

Like many collieries in the area, connected to both the Midland and the Great Central: 1897 OS 25" map.

 

Six seams in 1896, according to Durham Mining Museum's website:

• No. 1 - Tupton - gas coal - employing 921 (362 below, 559 surface)
• No. 2 - Deep Soft - household coal - employing 561
• No. 3 - Ell - gas coal - employing 245
• No. 4 - Silkstone - coking and household coal - employing 480
• No. 5 - Deep Hard - manufacturing - standing
• No. 6 - Top Hard - steam coal - standing

I assume that means seams 5 and 6 weren't being worked at the time. How should one interpret those employment figures? I would assume the 559 surface workers would have been dealing with coal from all the seams worked. 96 men known to have been killed between 1866 and 1933 including 14 in an explosion in November of the latter year. The Grassmoor Colliery Co. seems to have been a family firm. More info here.

 

The firm had 540 wagons registered with the Midland between 1896 and 1901, mostly built by S.J. Claye, numbers 501-700 in 1896, 101-300 in 1898, and 400-439 in 1901, but also some by G.R. Turner of Langley Mill, numbers 1-100 in 1898. These were all of 10 tons capacity. With the exception of the last 40 from Claye, these all had internal dimensions 14'6" x 7'0" x 4'0" with side and bottom doors (i.e. 15'0" over headstocks, 7'6" width outside sheeting, and, given that the side doors were 2'9" or 2'10" high, probably 7 plank sides). The last 40 from Claye were a foot longer but only 3'9" deep and had end doors as well as side and bottom doors. 

 

So numbers 301-399 and 440-500 are unaccounted for. I wonder if the move to lower numbers after the first two Claye batches represents the replacement of old dumb buffered wagons - which had maybe been bought up by the Midland?

 

I'm indebted to Ian Pope for supplying me with copies of his spreadsheet transcripts of the first three volumes of the Midland's PO registers (held a TNA) following a chat we had at the last exhibition I went to, at Basingstoke last March. There could well be further registrations after 1902.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Compound2632

[Rail-Online]

Something completely new (and not particularly Midland Railway orientated).  I spotted this in the background of a neg taken at Reading in 1935. I was surprised to see a Upton colliery of Pontrfract PO all the way down there even though they produced steam coal from the Barnsley bed.  The livery is a new variant not coveret in Turton 3 or 5.  The real point in listing it is the livery of the wagon partilly obscured. It appears to start with JES......  Does anyone know what it could be?  

 

Cheers Tony

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

(and not particularly Midland Railway orientated). 

 

Sez you, but the LMS open is an ex-Midland D302 or D663A.

 

I read: Jes?e M?r...

 

It's a 6-planker with slightly arc ends, suggesting some antiquity.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm indebted to Ian Pope for supplying me with copies of his spreadsheet transcripts of the first three volumes of the Midland's PO registers (held a TNA) following a chat we had at the last exhibition I went to, at Basingstoke last March. There could well be further registrations after 1902.

Just one of many good reasons for visiting a Basingstoke show - when the club is allowed to hold an exhibition.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Western Star said:

Just one of many good reasons for visiting a Basingstoke show - when the club is allowed to hold an exhibition.

 

As I think I mentioned to you, the first time I have done so, to my shame, despite living in Reading for a quarter-century. Having discovered what I'd been missing, it'll be in the diary once it can happen again.

[Western Star]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I read: Jes?e M?r...

 

It's a 6-planker with slightly arc ends, suggesting some antiquity.

Information from Ian Pope (in my words):-

 

The wagon in the photo is written for Jesse Martin.  There is a record of Jesse Martin acquiring a wagon from  S J Claye of Long Eaton circa grouping and registered with the GWR (so probably not the wagon in the photo above).  There are other records for J Martin / J Martin and Son which may or may not be associated with Jesse Martin.  Whilst there is no record as to the location of Jesse Martin one record for J Martin is associated with Bradford.

 

regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Information from Ian Pope (in my words):-

 

The wagon in the photo is written for Jesse Martin.  There is a record of Jesse Martin acquiring a wagon from  S J Claye of Long Eaton circa grouping and registered with the GWR (so probably not the wagon in the photo above).  There are other records for J Martin / J Martin and Son which may or may not be associated with Jesse Martin.  Whilst there is no record as to the location of Jesse Martin one record for J Martin is associated with Bradford.

 

Brilliant detective work - exactly what I like - extracting a whole history from a half-seen wagon in the background of a photo of something else. (In this case a dead common oft-photographed Great Western locomotive.) 

 

The only point I don't understand is why registration with the GWR would preclude the wagon in the records from being the one in the photo. It would appear that the wagon was second-hand by the time it got to Martin via Claye; it could well have been registered with the GWR at its original building for another customer. Anyway, the photo's at Reading, where the Great Western had a foothold, though as all good Readingensians know, the South Eastern was the principal line in the town.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Compound2632
Typo corrected

[Penlan]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Anyway, the photo's at Reading, where the Great Western had a foothold, though as all good Readingensians know, the South Eastern was the principal line in the town.

Back in the early 1960's I remember I had to catch a train from Reading down to Winchester (where I lived) from the SECR Bay platform which left Reading in a westerly direction from the station.
At the time, with my limited knowledge of pre-grouping companies, I could never understand how the SECR railway could be in Reading, obviously since then I've caught up with the history, but it still seems an anomaly.

[Western Star]

51 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The only point I don't understand is why registration with the GWR would preclude the wagon in the records from being the one in the photo. It would appear that the wagon was second-hand by the time it got to Martin via Claye; it could well have been registered with the GWR at its original building for another customer.

Stephen @Compound2632, your response to my earlier posting illustrates the difficulty of giving an accurate picture of the history of (a) a coal merchant and / or (b) the life of a coal wagon when the available evidence is drawn from a small number of primary sources.  I have gone back to Ian to check my interpretation of his comments...

 

(a) from the GWR PO records we know that Jesse Martin purchased or leased several wagons from S J Claye in 1923 / 24, those wagons were 12T capacity.  Since no PO wagon register started a "registration record" with a second hand wagon we know that the wagons acquired from SJ Claye were new builds at the date of registration.

 

(b) the photo shows a wagon which I would describe as "6-plank, raised ends, grease-box with two independent sets of brake gear", this does not seem to be an appropriate specification for a new build in the early 1920s.

 

Of course, I could be wrong in my analysis of the primary sources (in this case a GWR document and a dated photograph).

 

regards, Graham

Edited January 2, 2021 by Western Star

[brumtb]

On 01/01/2021 at 10:21, Compound2632 said:

 

No great surprise. For one thing, the Knotty was late into the LMS fold - amalgamation not taking place until 1 July 1923 (along with the Caledonian). Perhaps the Knotty's greatest contribution to the LMS, at least as far as enthusiasts are concerned, were its chief draughtsman and works manager at Stoke, Tom Coleman and H.G. Ivatt.

And I understand, but would like to know more, that NSR trains ran into Birmingham!

[Compound2632]

On 02/01/2021 at 13:40, Western Star said:

Stephen @Compound2632, your response to my earlier posting illustrates the difficulty of giving an accurate picture of the history of (a) a coal merchant and / or (b) the life of a coal wagon when the available evidence is drawn from a small number of primary sources.  I have gone back to Ian to check my interpretation of his comments...

 

(a) from the GWR PO records we know that Jesse Martin purchased or leased several wagons from S J Claye in 1923 / 24, those wagons were 12T capacity.  Since no PO wagon register started a "registration record" with a second hand wagon we know that the wagons acquired from SJ Claye were new builds at the date of registration.

 

(b) the photo shows a wagon which I would describe as "6-plank, raised ends, grease-box with two independent sets of brake gear", this does not seem to be an appropriate specification for a new build in the early 1920s.

 

Of course, I could be wrong in my analysis of the primary sources (in this case a GWR document and a dated photograph).

 

regards, Graham

 

Yes, that's clear. I agree the wagon in the photo cannot be one of the batch from Claye. It's almost certainly a 10 ton rather than a 12 ton wagon.

 

On 02/01/2021 at 13:38, Penlan said:

Back in the early 1960's I remember I had to catch a train from Reading down to Winchester (where I lived) from the SECR Bay platform which left Reading in a westerly direction from the station.
At the time, with my limited knowledge of pre-grouping companies, I could never understand how the SECR railway could be in Reading, obviously since then I've caught up with the history, but it still seems an anomaly.

 

You must have left from one of platforms 1-3 (in the old numbering) which were part of the Great Western station (Reading General), serving the Berks & Hants lines and still used for reversing Bournemouth - Midlands/North cross-country trains - although when I was first living in Reading those trains were locomotive hauled (47s) and used platforms 8 or 9 (old numbering), the engine running round via the middle siding that still then existed. In the early 60s, Reading South station was still open as the terminus for trains from Waterloo and Guildford; this was the terminus of the Reading, Guildford and Reigate Railway, opened in 1849 and absorbed by the South Eastern. The LSWR got in by running powers from Wokingham following the opening of the Staines, Wokingham & Woking Junction Railway in 1856. When Reading South closed, it was replaced by a double-sided platform perched alongside the eastern end of platform 4 of the Great Western station, the down fast platform. Those platforms were numbered 4A and 4B. I commuted from them by 4VEP for several years in the late 90s. They were the subject of a rather nicely-done 4 mm scale model.

 

With the rebuilding of the station, the Berks & Hants bays were the only platforms to be unrenumbered. The "Southern" section has been enlarged to three platform faces, numbered 4-6, which still have the character of a separate station that 4A/4B had, whilst the old platform 4 is now 7 and all the rest is pretty much new; I'm not sure that even the new up fast platform 8 is on the same alignment as the old platform 5, the through line having been removed.

 

The Great Western station was never very popular. One day in the 1860s news spread through the town that the railway station was on fire. There was much rejoicing, until it was discovered that the blaze was at the SER station not the GWR station.

 

This 1865 photo shows the relationship between the two stations. I presume the engine is one of Cudworth's 59 Class 2-4-0s. The building on the right is one of the two Great Western buildings, either the up station or the down, I can't remember which - both were on loops off the running lines - and is still there, swamped by the 1980s and 2000s buildings:

 

 

[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Reading_station_1865.jpg]

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

When Reading South closed, it was replaced by a double-sided platform perched alongside the eastern end of platform 4 of the Great Western station, the down fast platform. Those platforms were numbered 4A and 4B.

Sorry to disagre with you on this matter.  In the immediate period after the closure of Reading South the Waterloo services used a single face platform, known as platform 4A, to the east of platform 4 of Reading General with the platform face towards the GWR main line.  The later two faced platform 4A / 4B occupied the space of the old platform 4A plus some additional land to the south of the original platform 4A.

 

regards, Graham

Edited January 2, 2021 by Western Star

[Regularity]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

This 1865 photo shows the relationship between the two stations. I presume the engine is one of Cudworth's 59 Class 2-4-0s. The building on the right is one of the two Great Western buildings, either the up station or the down, I can't remember which - both were on loops off the running lines - and is still there, swamped by the 1980s and 2000s buildings:

 

Notice the coach on the RH side of the picture: modelled in a smaller scale to create "forced perspective"...

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Sorry to disagre with you on this matter.  In the immediate period after the closure of Reading South the Waterloo services used a single face platform, known as platform 4A, to the east of platform 4 of Reading General with the platform face towards the GWR main line.  The later two faced platform 4A / 4B occupied the space of the old platform 4A plus some additional land to the south of the original platform 4A.

 

Thank you Graham - I was unaware of that intermediate stage. When I was commuting, the frequency was a Waterloo train twice an hour and a Gatwick train once an hour, which the two platforms 4A & 4B could handle but I doubt a single platform could. I'm ignorant as to how the service on the Guildford line was arranged before the introduction of the Thames Turbos in the early 90s - did Guildford trains run from another platform?

[Penlan]

That's a great photo, the thing I was drawn to was the different telegraph poles, the railway ones with the insulators appearing above the cross arms, but for who the underslung one's are own by I don't know, though obviously they are within the railway boundary.
PS, like Sheep, Edwardian Railway Telegraph poles are one of my obsessions in modelling....
Many thanks to 'Western Star' and 'Compound2632' for you very informative replies.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Penlan said:

PS, like Sheep, Edwardian Railway Telegraph poles are one of my obsessions in modelling....

 

No sheep in central Reading these days, though perhaps in 1865...

 

I was struck by the unkempt appearance of the embankment on the approach to the SER station.

[Western Star]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm ignorant as to how the service on the Guildford line was arranged before the introduction of the Thames Turbos in the early 90s - did Guildford trains run from another platform?

In the years from 1960s towards 1990s I believe that Reading General used platforms 9 and 10 for passenger services - I have memories of Brush type 4s with passenger services crossing the up/down main/relief lines to access the SR route towards Wokingham.

 

Time to ask Mike @The Stationmaster for his opinions.

 

regards, Graham

Edited January 2, 2021 by Western Star

[Northroader]

On the matter of Reading station, the brick building with the clock tower on the GWR side in your picture was built in the 1860s to upgrade the facilities, before then there were two scruffy sheds for the up and down parts of the old station. The building was for both parts, it wasn’t one or the other. It now forms the “Golden Guinea” dive.

When  they closed the SER station and moved the lot upstairs, there was an island platform with two faces put in at the London end of the old down main platform (4) designated 4a and 4b. Regularly you had to wait for an outgoing train to clear before an incoming train could in, so it was a big improvement when an extra, third, platform, was added on the south side, as it was tight handling the Waterloo and the Guildford trains.

Services on the Guildford and Redhill lines were run by the SR diesel electric mu’s after steam ended, from Tonbridge depot, aka “tadpoles” or “thumpers”. You could get through Intercity services coming off the GWR station and joining on the link line down by Kennet bridge, loco hauled to start, latterly XC voyagers, though I think these no longer happen? Extra services were added for Gatwick airport, and these had suburban dmus off Reading depot, plus a few Met-Camms. The whole lot were replaced by the Thames Turbos from Reading depot.

Sorry, I’m getting a bit away from the thread topic, but it is a fascinating station.

[simonmcp]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Reading_station_1865.jpg]

 

 

I was drawn to the platform edge, very uneven, just like a thin card surface in model form.

[PenrithBeacon]

I think that would be thought of as a trip hazard now.

[Mikkel]

I have often thought that these two sidings - on the GWR and SECR side respectively - could make an interesting micro-layout for the horsebox enthusiast.

 

 

 

Source: Britain from Above, https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW017071

 

[Miss Prism]

Reading South was a great station, with a very cosy concourse. it's main attraction was the W H Smith stall, which always got the Model Railway Constructor before the rest of the town. Definitely worth the bike ride.

 

[Spitfire2865]

7 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I have often thought that these two sidings - on the GWR and SECR side respectively - could make an interesting micro-layout for the horsebox enthusiast.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That single wagon siding looks like something out of a Peco layout book.  

Edited January 5, 2021 by Spitfire2865

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Spitfire2865 said:

That single wagon siding looks like something out of a Peco layout book.  

 

It was, as @Mikkel identifies, a horse and carriage loading dock - NPCS use.