More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Speaking of which, in the film of Jeanie Deans at Bushey, we'd spotted wagons of Clarke of London. Browsing the L&NWR Society's Zenfolio site, I've come across another one, dumb buffered, behind a Class B compound (caption is wrong) in a northbound train of empties. Still can't read what is written top left.

 

The Jeanie Deans film is the opening sequence in a compilation of 68 mm film from the Mutascope & Biograph Company, all dated between 1897 and 1902: https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-brilliant-biograph-2020-online. There's some fascinating stuff there, though maybe a bit too much Dutch peasantry for everyone's taste. Great Western enthusiasts will enjoy seeing a Dean Single running through Maidenhead (about 34 mins) - though Health & Safety specialists will have a fit; and the arrival at Windsor (42 min) - filmed from the train. The view over the low-level goods yard will repay frame-by-frame examination! There's some LSWR cattle wagons elsewhere in the film...

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Compound2632
Biograph not Biopic!

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

a Dean Single running through Maidenhead 

 

I think this is 3076 Princess Beatrice - based on seeing the third digit of the number as 7 and the fourth 5 or 6, and the position of the gap in the name, which is too near the top for it to be Princess Louise.

[Mikkel]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Great Western enthusiasts will enjoy seeing a Dean Single running through Maidenhead (about 34 mins)

 

Oh my. Brief but sweet.

 

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the arrival at Windsor (42 min) - filmed from the train. The view over the low-level goods yard will repay frame-by-frame examination!

 

A very valuable view. The Windsor low level yard was very rarely photographed, even the GWRJ  had to give up, with just one poor photo in the Windsor article.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Never ever seen this livery before (at 42:42). And at that time too. Perhaps a one-off, maybe the GWR's local agent got the paint brush out. I've seen others do that, though never so boldly.

 

 

Oh, and the 633 at 42:50, and the lineside structures just afterwards, including quite early corrugated iron lamp hut (introductory dates of those have been discussed on here before).  What a little gem you've unearthed.

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Mikkel

[kitpw]

The approach to Windsor from a train recorded in the film is completely fascinating. I noticed particularly the signalling arrangements, not only the types and placement in general but also the detail which is remarkably clear.  The goods yard is also well recorded which it isn't anywhere else I've come across - the cattle pens/loading on a quite significant grade isn't something you'd model unless you'd seen it.  Much study now required, as you say, frame by frame!

 

Kit PW

[Penlan]

.... and at around 23 minutes, the Conway Castle sequence,

all the LNWR signals are still the pre-1883 slotted post type,

as indeed they were on the Central Wales Line at this date.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Penlan said:

.... and at around 23 minutes, the Conway Castle sequence,

all the LNWR signals are still the pre-1883 slotted post type,

as indeed they were on the Central Wales Line at this date.

 

Yes, I'd seen that before - it was posted to the L&NWR Soc Facebook group. Complete with the red hand-coloured back to the distant arm!

 

There are some other good bits of film around featuring the LNWR - at the Menai bridge, and more on the North Wales coast. The LNWR seems to have been favoured by the early film-makers - partly, I think, down to where they lived. Plus black and white trains make good black and white cinema!

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Oh my. Brief but sweet.

 

I hope you spotted the family carriage tagging along on the end of this corridor dining car express. There can't have been that many such expresses on the GW in 1899, so is it possible to identify the train?

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, sir douglas said:

 

ive seen this problem on an EM layout in 2019. a Webb that as only powered on one axle, it could barely move itself let alone its train

 

The same "problem" applies to any single driver loco but can be overcome. The answer is to build the chassis to ensure the maximum  adhesive weigh is concentrated on the driving axle. That can be done with springing/compensation but a rigid chassis may mean that the driving wheels become "disconnected" from the track at times.

Weight and rolling resistance of stock is also important. Relatively light etched or moulded plastic kit coaches fitted with pinpoint bearings don't present as much of a haulage problem as heavy cast  coaches (K's LNWR six wheelers) or inside bearing coaches where the axles just run in etched carriers as earlier etched six wheel kits often used.

 

Or do what the LNWR  did in later years and use them as a pilot for another loco.

 

 

Models and photo courtesy of John Chamberlain

Edited January 27, 2021 by Jol Wilkinson
Additional text and photo

[Compound2632]

The paint shop has been busy - primer and a first round of black running gear. Shades of grey tomorrow.

[Dave Hunt]

My S7 Midland 'Princess of Wales' Class bogie single No. 21 has full working inside motion and two motor bogies in the tender. The late John Horton christened it 'The fastest tram in the west,' after seeing a photograph of tramcar No. 21 in front of Derby station.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

two motor bogies in the tender.

 

Oh no we're going to be in for another round of double heading remarks, to which the only reasonable response will be to refer to the photo Jol posted ealier!

[Florence Locomotive Works]

We have been discussing drive systems on my own Midland thread, and a possible but invasive solution might be to mount the motor in the tender and then have a drive shaft running to a gearbox on the rear most axle and then another from that gearbox running to the forward axle. Very complicated but might work. Ian Rice mentions some complex shaft driven engines, most notable a GWR Hall made in oo in about 1954 which had belt drive and shaft drive, I’ll try to post pictures later.

 

Douglas

[Mikkel]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I hope you spotted the family carriage tagging along on the end of this corridor dining car express. 

 

Not until now.

 

The train at the other side of the platform is quite nice too. A closer look suggests not one long clerestory coach, but two shorter ones - six-wheelers I assume.  Marlow branch train, perhaps.

 

Source: https://maps.nls.uk/view/97790529

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Mikkel
Reduced image size, gradually woke up

[Compound2632]

Let's discuss the building of LNWR locomotives elsewhere:

 

 

[Crewe Works, c. 1890. Anon, Pictorial England and Wales (Cassell & Co. London & New York) via Wikimedia Commons.]

 

Carriages, I will tolerate, even Great Western ones. According to my reading of @Penrhos1920's website, there were only four first class kitchen diners in existence in 1898 (subsequently diagram H2) so our up express at Maidenhead can only be one of two trains.

 

On 28/01/2021 at 05:08, Mikkel said:

The train at the other side of the platform is quite nice too. A closer look suggests not one long clerestory coach, but two shorter ones - six-wheelers I assume.  Marlow branch train, perhaps.

 

They're longer than they look - bogie carriages. Each of the pair has seven or eight door ventilator hoods. The carriage nearer the camera seems to be a seven compartment all-third, diagram C4 - 40 ft long - or more likely a composite, since the centre door ventilators are a bit more widely spaced, though I can't find a diagram that matches. The one nearest the engine is a six-compartment centre-brake composite with deep eves panels. It must be the a brake carriage as otherwise there isn't one in the train; E16?

Edited September 13, 2022 by Compound2632
defunct image replaced by embedded link

[jwealleans]

7 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

a possible but invasive solution might be to mount the motor in the tender and then have a drive shaft running to a gearbox on the rear most axle and then another from that gearbox running to the forward axle.

 

Graeme King has made a DJH Ivatt Atlantic which is in fact a 4-6-0, having the trailing wheel driven through a geartrain from the rear drivers.   It works very well and pulls as well as any pacific we have.

[Northroader]

The train in the bay is very likely setting off on quite a pleasant journey through Bourne End, High Wycombe, Princes Risborough and Thame, to end up in Oxford, which would be why it’s got some decent bogie carriages. For Marlow, change at Bourne End, for Aylesbury at P.R., and so on, so an interesting trip. The Birmingham cut off beyond P.R. is still in the future.

[Miss Prism]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I hope you spotted the family carriage tagging along on the end of this corridor dining car express. There can't have been that many such expresses on the GW in 1899, so is it possible to identify the train?

 

It was not uncommon for saloons to be attached to trains.

 

The Henley sequence in this early John Huntley archive features quite a few saloons (although that is what one would expect on Henley race days).

https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1034769&itemw=4&itemf=0001&itemstep=1&itemx=43
 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Miss Prism

[Jol Wilkinson]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Let's discuss the building of LNWR locomotives elsewhere:

 

 

[Crewe Works, c. 1890. Anon, Pictorial England and Wales (Cassell & Co. London & New York) via Wikimedia Commons.]

 

Carriages, I will tolerate, even Great Western ones. According to my reading of @Penrhos1920's website, there were only four first class kitchen diners in existence in 1898 (subsequently diagram H2) so our up express at Maidenhead can only be one of two trains.

 

 

They're longer than they look - bogie carriages. Each of the pair has seven or eight door ventilator hoods. The carriage nearer the camera seems to be a seven compartment all-third, diagram C4 - 40 ft long - or more likely a composite, since the centre door ventilators are a bit more widely spaced, though I can't find a diagram that matches. The one nearest the engine is a six-compartment centre-brake composite with deep eves panels. It must be the a brake carriage as otherwise there isn't one in the train; E16?

I have renamed  my topic on London Road;

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14518-lnwr-london-road-locomotives-and-rolling-stock/page/16/&tab=comments#comment-4295255

 

to reflect the LNWR models I build for the layout.

 

Anyone wishing to discuss building LNWR locos and rolling stock is welcome (within reason) to join in. Within reason because, although I have modelled the LNWR for about forty years I don't consider my self an expert and don't have all - if indeed many - of the answers.

 

[Penrhos1920]

10 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Not until now.

 

The train at the other side of the platform is quite nice too. A closer look suggests not one long clerestory coach, but two shorter ones - six-wheelers I assume.  Marlow branch train, perhaps.

 

Source: https://maps.nls.uk/view/97790529

 

 

The short train at Maidenhead is an early bogie composite E1-E5 and I think a bogie centre brake third D4?  I haven't even tried to id the 9 coaches behind the Dean Single!  At Windsor the coaches passed in the station throat are G25, 2x C4, metro tank, S1 & C3.  I couldn't get a good enough look at the coach at the back of the goods yard.

[Compound2632]

54 minutes ago, Penrhos1920 said:

The short train at Maidenhead is an early bogie composite E1-E5 and I think a bogie centre brake third D4?  

 

Aha. I hadn't registered that the diagrams for E2 - E5 show the centre luggage compartment as a brake compartment. D4 isn't listed on your website but I'm not convinced that it's a brake vehicle. I see a wider panel between the third and fourth compartments from the far end, suggesting a composite.

 

1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

I haven't even tried to id the 9 coaches behind the Dean Single!  

 

How about:

1. 4-compartment brake third with end lavatory - D28
2. 8-compartment third with one lav at end and one at 3/8 - C13 or C17, saloon end leading
3. Ditto, marshalled the other way round
4. 6 compartments, one lav at end other at 2/6 - A3 (it does look shorter than the others)
5. Dining Carriage, kitchen leading - H2
6. 4-compartment brake third with lav next to brake compt - D10
7. 6-compartment composite, lav at 2/7, luggage/guard at 3/3 - non-corridor E17/E18
8. 4-compartment brake third - non corridor D14 (not D24 on grounds of width - evidently the same 8'0" as the E17/E18 and narrower than the ninth vehicle)
9. Family saloon - diagram?

[Dave Hunt]

On 27/01/2021 at 22:10, Compound2632 said:

 

Oh no we're going to be in for another round of double heading remarks, to which the only reasonable response will be to refer to the photo Jol posted ealier!

 

With two motor bogies and a ton of lead in the tender, one thing my Single will never need is a pilot engine or a banker.

 

Dave

[Northroader]

Stephen, don’t get off your bike if you happen to spot there’s no wagons on this train, but I just enjoyed the picture, sort of having your cake and eating it.

 

There’s a MR local train with an eclectic mix of six wheelers, with an old GWR bogie clerestory, (broad gauge conversion?) thrown into the middle.

Its at Glasbury, in Wales, just south of Hay on Wye, I would think eastbound, on the Hereford, Hay and Brecon section of the MR. Local train Brecon to Hereford, but with a through coach from Brecon, presumably ending up at Paddington, routing from Hereford by Worcester and Oxford, or by Gloucester and Swindon?

[Penlan]

47 minutes ago, Northroader said:

 

 

There’s a MR local train with an eclectic mix of six wheelers, with an old GWR bogie clerestory, (broad gauge conversion?) thrown into the middle.

Its at Glasbury, in Wales, just south of Hay on Wye, I would think eastbound, on the Hereford, Hay and Brecon section of the MR. Local train Brecon to Hereford, but with a through coach from Brecon, presumably ending up at Paddington, routing from Hereford by Worcester and Oxford, or by Gloucester and Swindon?

Is there any chance the GWR coach is being used by Madam Patti, from Penwylt?
Incidenaltly, I understand the coach, or one of the GWR Coaches Madam Patti used, is currently at Bodmin, being, or is, restored.   Madam Patti lived at Penwylt Castle, by the old N&B (Midland) line.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Stephen, don’t get off your bike if you happen to spot there’s no wagons on this train, but I just enjoyed the picture, sort of having your cake and eating it.

 

There’s a MR local train with an eclectic mix of six wheelers, with an old GWR bogie clerestory, (broad gauge conversion?) thrown into the middle.

Its at Glasbury, in Wales, just south of Hay on Wye, I would think eastbound, on the Hereford, Hay and Brecon section of the MR. Local train Brecon to Hereford, but with a through coach from Brecon, presumably ending up at Paddington, routing from Hereford by Worcester and Oxford, or by Gloucester and Swindon?

 

That's nice. Any idea of date? It can't be very much after 1900 if that, as the leading carriage is a 29 ft third brake, one of 40 built in 1875 by the Swansea Wagon Company and replaced by new bogie carriages in the period 1898-1902. They were built as 4-wheelers but given a central axle c. 1880. It must be oil-lit; followers of the Hornby 4/6-wheeler topic can note that the only thing visible between the wheelsets is the vacuum cylinder. A number of these carriages were converted to brakedown train tool vans on withdrawl, in which guise at least one gave another sixty years' service, ending up at Aston (ex-LNWR) shed, as seen here.

 

The second carriage is an ordinary 31 ft carriage of the type built from 1883 onwards, a third to diagram D493. Note that the roof is higher than that of the third brake - it's an 8 ft radius arc rather than the 10 ft of the earlier carriage. The fifth carriage, just in view, must be a bogie vehicle from the position of the visible axlebox. I think we see double doors with a droplight in the left-hand window, suggesting a composite brake, of which there were 40 ft and 45 ft examples built in the 1880s. At first sight, the fourth carriage looks to be a D516 31 ft luggage composite, built 1884/5, like the example at the NRM. However, on close inspection, the roof looks lower than that of the adjacent bogie vehicle, which leads me to think it may be a 30 ft composite, either from the batch of 50 by Brown, Marshalls, or 40 by Gloucester, all built in 1876. These carriages were also replaced in 1898-1902. It's certainly oil-lit- the oil lamps are visible on the roof above at least the two first-class compartments.

 

Now, I've just had a bit of practice at Great Western clerestory-spotting. That's clearly a centre-brake composite with the early style of deep eves panelling. Reference to @Penrhos1920's invaluable website, the nearest match I can find is diagram E9, eight 40 ft carriages built in 1880 as standard-gauge vehicles, not convertibles, "for Manchester traffic". The problem with this identification is that the diagram shows the guard's door on the side with three compartments, while in the photo it's on the side with two compartments. So I'm wondering if the carriage in the photo is a type that didn't last long enough to get into the diagram book - 1910? It is almost certainly a tricomposite, like E9, with one first and one second class compartment.

 

Most picture-books devote most of their caption space to the locomotive, which is often tedious, since it's the one item in view about which much is already known. Anyway, I suppose it had better be mentioned. According to Summerson*, 1532 Class Nos. 1734-1736 were at Brecon in 1892, with No. 1737 at Upper Bank; the Brecon engines had moved to the Birmingham district by 1899-1902, with No. 1737 now at Brecon. These four engines may have had their places taken by four engines of the 2228 Class, built in 1900: Nos. 2621-3 went new to Brecon and No. 2624 to Upper Bank, all staying put until at least 1921. I'm inclined to think the engine in the photo does not have the higher side tanks and bunker of these later engines, which would tend to confirm that the photo is no later than 1900.

 

With any luck, @John-Miles will be able to tell us what the service is and where that Great Western carriage is going. I agree it's probably an east-bound train, since a photograph would naturally be taken from the sunny side.

 

*S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002) pp. 110-111. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Compound2632