Jump to content

Compound2632

More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Would it be a label clip? You could usually find them around there.

 

 

The more I look, I find this fitting on later GW wagons too - it does have a clip; in the Acton photo mentioned above, three of the wagons have something pale-coloured held in place by the clip - and two of these are very post-1904 wagons - a ventilated wood mink and a vac-fitted (I think) 5-plank. In many photos, I think it disappears into the shadows. It can be seen on the LH end of the solebar of preserved iron mink 11152. But unlike other folks' plain label clip, it seems to be a little box with an angled lid. For the wagon checker's pencil?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you mean one of these?

 

IMG_3753-1.JPG.e9ab0a8750d47820bb55b4eedb5e1fab.JPG

 

close up of said iron mink @ didcot

  • Like 5
  • Informative/Useful 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Annie said:

Referencing the LNWR Society I've been in contact with them and things are on the way to the society providing me with a copy of Pilchers photo album. 

:good_mini:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Chrisbr said:

you mean one of these?

 

close up of said iron mink @ didcot

 

Brilliant close-up. But what went in the box? 

 

I note the number stamped on the iron solebar; presumably a continuation of the practice of carving it on the wooden solebar. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Brilliant close-up. But what went in the box? 

 

Blank cards? I expect the cards would have been completed in the office but smudges and rain could require it being re-written. Also it might sometimes be convenient to load, write the card and then take a copy to the office.

Alan 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Alan @Buhar will be pleased to see some progress on the G&SWR open. I've de-wonked the axles using inside bearing units, attached to a piece of 0.040" plasticard to give the right ride height:

 

2122573794_GSWD10openinsidebearingssideview.JPG.9a86b0b2122d0bd93e72f70272f0b2a0.JPG829429326_GSWD10openinsidebearingsunderside.JPG.510878a4572dbfc868b49e60b8e5105c.JPG

 

Unfortunately this now emphasise the un-squareness of my assembly of the body! It's really not at all noticeable by eye from normal viewing angles...

 

These are MJT 2290 - designed as a compensation unit for conversion of RTR wagons but using only the bearing unit not the fixing plate. Following Simon @Regularity's advice, I soldered a couple of the supplied etched washers on the inside face of the unit - using a 2 mm drill bit to keep everything in line - and reamed out very gently to give an even bearing surface. The wagon rolls very sweetly. I now have to go back and do the same for the bearing units on my tariff brake.

 

A snag with this arrangement is that the weight of the whitemetal is supported by the glued joint between the plastic floor and the sides, so I've been reinforcing that with extra squirts of cyano.

 

I've been in correspondence with some of Alan's colleagues in the G&SWR Association about the size of the lettering - their archive at Kilmarnock is still closed so I've yet to get a definitive reply, if such a thing is possible.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heading off in yet another random direction, I was reminded of the recent discussion of Midland D302 and D663A 5-plank open wagons - the 10 ton, 16'0"-long successors to D299 built in the decade up to grouping - by several photos of a slowly-decaying example at Middleton Top, e.g. here. What leaped out at me was the corner plates, which stop half-way up the top plank, with a short plate filling in the top. Having noticed this, I started peering at photos of wagons of these diagrams in Midland Wagons Vol. 1. Looking very closely at Plates 101 and 104, I think one can see the same construction. 

 

From the diagrams, D299 had 2'10¾" sides, while D302 had 3'0" and D663A 3'2" sides; respectively 1¼" and 3¼" higher. I'm wondering if wagons with these corner plate extensions made use of recycled corner plates from withdrawn D299 wagons - or perhaps used up stock of spare parts? If so, the corner plates were being used the other way up to the way round they had been on D299! If so, wagons built this way must be D633A, as the extension pieces are certainly not 1" wide whereas 3" looks about right.

 

If my surmise is correct, this would confirm that not all D663A wagons had steel T-section end stachions.

 

 

 

  • Informative/Useful 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

by several photos of a slowly-decaying example at Middleton Top, e.g. here.

Ah the 'save historic wagons by putting them out to compost and forgetting about them' school of preservation.  

  • Like 3
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a drawing of a G&SWR brake van, with outside framing, which has 12” lettering.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30 July 2020 at 13:02, Compound2632 said:

 

Brilliant close-up. But what went in the box? 

 

I note the number stamped on the iron solebar; presumably a continuation of the practice of carving it on the wooden solebar. 

 

On 30 July 2020 at 13:30, Buhar said:

Blank cards? I expect the cards would have been completed in the office but smudges and rain could require it being re-written. Also it might sometimes be convenient to load, write the card and then take a copy to the office.

Alan 

I suspect that the box was intended to take the wagon's consignment note or waybill. In one of Edward Talbot's books there are references to the consignment notes being delivered to the destination point either by post, passenger train or on the wagon itself. The label clip would simply hold the basic destination details on a, usually pre-printed, card, with the invoice in the box. I don't think these days we'd be too happy relying on the post - the load would have to wait for the Royal Mail to do their business. I was a bit surprised by the use of passenger trains, but they would generally get there faster, and I couldn't find any reference to the goods guard having to handle this element of the train's documentation. 

  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/07/2020 at 21:57, Mikkel said:

Very interesting info you have found, Stephen. Almost a bit too much to take in!

 

Just when we thought our good old Bible was all we needed, a prophet brings us new knowledge from secret scriptures.

 

Lovely sketches too! I look forward to seeing them turn into models at some point.

 

I tried to model an old wooden brake block and lever for my 18ft one-planker, though slightly challenged by it being on the other side of the wagon in the only available picture! Maybe it should have been more curved.

 

I think I'll do as Annie and get a copy of the Wood book.

 

Having built a model of this wagon – inaccurately as I assumed it was one of the 15' 6" long variety – I did do a bit of digging. Though it would take from here to Christmas to find my notes from that time, I do have it mind that the real 5141 was withdrawn from Bridgwater in 1907.

 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/07/2020 at 21:57, Mikkel said:

I think I'll do as Annie and get a copy of the Wood book.

 

I'll be asking Lightmoor for commission!

  • Funny 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since we were on the topic of the accuracy of Hornby RTR wagons a few posts back, I was wondering about the accuracy of the Hornby refrigerator van.  I know this was discussed before but i would like to learn a little more.  I found this old drawing on the internet a while ago, it seems to be the only photo/drawing of the wagon on the internet.  Does anyone have any photographs of this wagon?

Q763ne12X_.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 01/08/2020 at 23:54, wagonman said:

 

Having built a model of this wagon – inaccurately as I assumed it was one of the 15' 6" long variety – I did do a bit of digging. Though it would take from here to Christmas to find my notes from that time, I do have it mind that the real 5141 was withdrawn from Bridgwater in 1907.

 

 

 

Please don't, I can't be bothered to change it :jester:

 

But seriously, you have actually already provided valuable info for that build, starting here: 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73776-gwr-four-plank-wagon-from-coopercraft-kit-gwr-one-plank-wagons/&do=findComment&comment=1097047

 

Edited by Mikkel
  • Like 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, niteshadex said:

Since we were on the topic of the accuracy of Hornby RTR wagons a few posts back, I was wondering about the accuracy of the Hornby refrigerator van.  I know this was discussed before but i would like to learn a little more.  I found this old drawing on the internet a while ago, it seems to be the only photo/drawing of the wagon on the internet.  Does anyone have any photographs of this wagon?

Q763ne12X_.jpg

 

@jwealleans is your man for this:

 

Edited by Compound2632

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Please don't, I can't be bothered to change it :jester:

 

But seriously, you have actually already provided valuable info for that build, starting here: 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73776-gwr-four-plank-wagon-from-coopercraft-kit-gwr-one-plank-wagons/&do=findComment&comment=1097047

 

 Gosh was it really that long ago. Thanks Mikkel – 22 October 1908 it is then. I still haven't changed the number on my model...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stephen, going back to lettering size for your G&SWR wagon, I was looking at Invertrain models website just now, and there was a photo of one, though the doors differ from yours. The size looks rather more than the 12” I quoted for a brakevan, though the outside frame on that would inhibit the size.

0B3E2381-FB56-4B55-874C-52868364841F.jpeg.3c6dba21731a013f3a7f527a24eb7934.jpeg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Stephen, going back to lettering size for your G&SWR wagon, I was looking at Invertrain models website just now, and there was a photo of one, though the doors differ from yours. The size looks rather more than the 12” I quoted for a brakevan, though the outside frame on that would inhibit the size.

0B3E2381-FB56-4B55-874C-52868364841F.jpeg.3c6dba21731a013f3a7f527a24eb7934.jpeg

 

Ah, now this is where Mr Rankin of the GSWRA and I got our wires crossed. He understood me to mean a mineral wagon such as the model shown, and having got my email only a few minutes before leaving the Kilmarnock archive, came away with information about these. They have the oddity that, because of the ironwork of the cupboard doors, the & S are smaller than the G W, as can clearly be seen in this HMRS photo. This lettering style is provided for on the HMRS pre-grouping Scottish transfer sheet.

 

Mine is a merchandise wagon with a drop flap door; I patiently await further information on these.

  • Like 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would any of our learned experts know what a  GWR tarpaulin from the early 1890s looked like?  Any information would be very gratefully received.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The details of GWR tarpaulins (the GWR called them 'sheets') changed over the years. Ian has drawn up a very useful  ca. 1900 sample here, which I believe would be fine for the 1890s (just remember to change the dates!):

 

 

The more commonly known style was introduced around 1903:

 

 

Edited by Mikkel
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

The details of GWR tarpaulins (the GWR called them 'sheets') changed over the years. Ian has drawn up a very useful  ca. 1900 sample here, which I believe would be fine for the 1890s (just remember to change the dates!):

Are you sure about that Mikkel?  When was that circa 1900s wagon sheet actually introduced?  I don't want to have to commit to wagon sheets using that design and find myself having to go back later and have them done again.

Edited by Annie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not 100% sure Annie. The distinction often made is between the two Ian have drawn up, with the one he calls '1900' as the earlier one.

 

I did at one time check pre-1900 photos to see if I could identify the exact nature of insignia on sheets of the time, but couldn't find a photo showing it clearly. Perhaps BG modellers will have some input there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've hunted through plenty of old photos as well Mikkel with no luck at all.  If a Broad Gauge era photo shows a wagon sheet the photo is usually too grainy or blurry to make out any details.  I am a member of the BGS so I could try to find out more there, but it might take a while.

I thought I'd ask here just in case somebody knew more on the subject.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The earlier sheet appears in this photo which I think was taken to demonstrate the sheet bar arrangement of the  O4 5-plank wagons, No. 12325 is, I think, from Lot 410 - c. 1902/3? 

 

1873881361_open-12325-smallresized.jpg.eb0bb554a1d8a6010ab316617ca3b188.jpg

 

[Image borrowed from gwr.org.uk.]

 

The later style is the only style to be seen in a c. 1905 photo of Vastern Road yard, Reading, from which I have previously used this crop:

 

141026828_VasternRoadc1905croptimberloads.jpg.18eb47ee8deacab2a9b61bcdce04b34e.jpg

 

On the strength of the 11/03 date on @Ian Smith's later style sheet, I've concluded that the change of style must have occurred around 18 months before that, i.e. in mid 1902. That's because the time in service for sheets was strictly controlled; the date in white is the date at which the sheet was due back at sheet stores for maintenance; there ought somewhere on the sheet be a date in red (invisible in photos) which is the date on which the sheet was sent into traffic. [EDIT: wrong way round - see post on next page. White date is date to traffic.] I don't know what this time-in-service interval was on the Great Western but I believe around 15 - 18 months was typical - I haven't been back to that Essery Midland Record article to check. [EDIT: not so sure of this - see post on next page.] Anyway, this has the convenient outcome that for my c. 1902/3 period, it seems that both designs would have been current.

 

Sorry that doesn't help with @Annie's question as to when the earlier style was first issued. Presumably sheets for broad gauge wagons were wider than the usual 14'4"?

 

 

Edited by Compound2632
Now checked against Essery's article.
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.